38 votes

DP Opinion poll on spanking.

I was commenting back and forth with another member about whether or not spanking a child was right or wrong. That other member happens to be from Sweden where spanking was made illegal back in 1979.

To clarify I am not asking if it is OK to abuse a child, such as a right hook to the face, or putting cigarettes out on them, but an open handed swat to the butt in rare circumstances, while keeping your cool, and with a measured amount of force. It happens to be legal where I live, (which is not what I use as a judgement of right and wrong).

The other member cited the non-aggression principal at one point, which I do not think applies fully to someone that is unable to understand their own best interests. We don't let 5 year old kids cast votes, nor do we cut them loose to live on the streets. Without the use of force, many kids would not ever bathe. Adults shouldn't be subjected to a nanny state, but I think kids should be, according to their maturity level/age.

So I am curious about everyone's opinion. If your opinion is one of a parent with practical knowledge of child rearing, as opposed to a single person's theoretical knowledge, I am curious about that too. If you never spank, what are your alternative disciplinary actions? I know my son would exercise civil disobedience if I tried to put his nose in a corner, or if I tried to imprison him in his room for a timeout.

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So theft is okay, but not assault?

You would "steal" your child's toy, but not assault them? Both of those actions require force and a violation of an individuals private property. Taking their toy as punishment is theft of property correct? Spanking them is assault on their property (body) correct? So why do you condone theft, but not assault?

My answer: Because kids are not adults. You cannot have a libertarian relationship with them.

Free market capitalism isn't right for America because it works better. It's right because it's free (and it works better).

I love a good spanking...

Are you guys offering?

Absolutly just show up at my

Absolutly just show up at my doorstep and we can get it rollin'.

I guess the plane trip would be quite long though, may not be worth it

What is missing is context in a lot of this discussion

Anything can be inappropriate if not correctly applied.
Psychological non violent punishment can also be far worse than physical when done to extremes.

If we spank a child, we are supposedly teaching violent behavior, yet if we put a child in a corner are we teaching it is ok to detain people? To force people into situations and override their free will? We can't equate discipline of children to the rules of adult society. If we do, then any discipline will fail the test.

Basically any approach can be done incorrectly and can be abused. Locking a child in a room for a day is non violent, but certainly most agree this is worse than a physical slap on the wrist.

I have personally found that consistency in whatever method you use is more of a substantial variable in the success than the chosen method. Consistency is likely to improve your results better than escalation of whatever punishment you use.

Emotional violence and

Emotional violence and physical violence share the same aspect that you are disregarding the "forced trust" that a child has for a parent. So I condemn both and speak out against both whenever I see it. I must say though that the parents that I know never do any of those things and their children and loving, caring and just beautiful individuals

Not disregarding anything

I did not speak in favor of either, yet at the same time there must be some type of deterrent to enforce behavior. Do you consider 5 min in a corner emotional violence? Is not allowing the use of a toy emotional violence? Is physical restraint from climbing on unsafe objects physical violence?

My argument is both physical and emotional are the foundations of deterrents, but it is how they are done and to what degree determine whether it is appropriate or not.

Regardless, it is a matter that is up the parent. I don't want the state trying to determine how parents should parent even if some choose methods I don't support.

If you take 5 minutes

If you take 5 minutes time-out and SPEAK TO YOUR CHILD is the best solution, in my opinion, doesn't matter if it is hard you have to find a way to communicate and be consistent, then no I have no problem with it. And also to tell your child to go to his room or similar I don't really have a problem with as long as you can articulate to your child why and still show him that you love him. (or her)

Watch the video posted by SuccessCouncil it is REALLY GOOD. It is the hardest way to foster a child but it absolutely is the best way, you cut NO corners

Yes, I use similar methods

I always look for positive ways to shape development and try to minimize what I consider negative coercion.

Although I don't use a spanking policy, I simply don't want to dictate to others what is best. I can't say what is best for anyone else and there still exists contradictory research and studies such as the following.
http://humansciences.okstate.edu/facultystaff/Larzelere/nzta...

I know if you search you will find contradictory view points on whether Swedens spanking bans have been a success or failure that made problems worse.

Spanking has not been necessary in my parenting and I have had good results without it. Yet I'm not wanting to ban it by government force. Simply want people to be aware of all methods out there so they can make intelligent decisions for themselves.

As somewhat of an

As somewhat of an anarcho-capitalist of course I am against any kind of government coercion. In the "system" that I like to talk about, the kind that I believe ultimately Ron Paul would be for, you could, though, through contracts say that if a parent is found to be using the method of spanking the insurance and social insurance that the prices or agreements of the contract the parent would choose to purchase would either expire or continue with penalties or expire all together.

for example the school that you contract with could stop working with you, the insurance of your child could stop working with you, since your child now probably will cost more because of your, my assumption or opinion, negligence, because your child might cost more money to the company you contracted with, and so on and so on.. Then of course if you find a contract that permits spanking then there isn't much I can say or do. In fact, as it works right now, I cannot do anything today either. Spank your child, hit him, do whatever the fuck you want to do. I will still speak against it and denounce the behavior with all my heart.

I just don't like dealing in absolutes

I just don't like dealing in absolutes. In other words, spanking is always bad, everything non-spanking is always better than spanking.

As a child myself who's parents both used spanking as well as being locked in a room as a type of timeout. I can say without a doubt as a child I would have preferred the spanking any day. The locked in a room was a very traumatic experience as a child. At a certain age it can bring on extreme separation anxiety for a child. I know first hand you can't simply say what is a traumatic type of punishment without knowing the context, the details, the child.

I can agree that locking your

I can agree that locking your child in a room is not a good way to raise your child. The things that I think that parents need to use to raise their children is communication, start early, you need to compromise with your child AND, perhaps most important, be consistent. If one rule applies to your child the same rule should apply to you. Lead with example and love your child.

Stephan Molyneux talks about this a lot and I recommend you to watch some of the youtube-link posted earlier by another poster.

I agree that consistancy is important....

but I disagree that locking a child in a room, time outs, and other things down that vein are also "violent"

www.SuccessCouncil.com
Protect your assets and profit from the greatest wealth transfer in history.

Never said they were violent

I said they were non violent. What I did say is that they can be worse than the 'violent' punishments. It is all a matter of how it is implemented. I would consider being locked in a room for a full day as worse than a light spanking, but some may disagree.

In general, punishment doesn't have to be severe, it has to be just enough to be a deterrent. Done consistently, subtle restrictions have major impacts over behavior. Nonetheless, there has to be some type of deterrent to shape behavior, but any deterrent can be classified as unjust if we try to equate it to adults, which just doesn't make sense.

I understand what you

mean. I was skimming something the other day where some evidence is suggesting forced isolation has a similar effect on a child's brain as actually being injured from violence. I've seen a man tear up recalling being sent to his room because as a child he interpreted it as being temporarily excluded from the family so I'm sure some applications coupled with some children's personalities could definitely cross to that level.

Defend Liberty!

Sorry. I ment to say time-outs etc is violence....

so I disagree with you in that respect, as you are saying they are not violent.

www.SuccessCouncil.com
Protect your assets and profit from the greatest wealth transfer in history.

Well with my 20 month old son

Well with my 20 month old son I tap him on the leg and if he keeps doing it he gets multiple taps. When I say tap I mean a light smack with your open hand, more towards the fingers. Doesn't work all the time though so then it's time out. Flicking also seems to work when they try to grab things they shouldn't. Try to grab something you shouldn't you give a flick to the hand. No body is the perfect disciplinarian but you do what you got to do just dont punch or beat the crap out of your kid.

I think some folks here think you should...

...just reason with your 1 year old. If he keeps trying to touch the stove while you are cooking, you should just "talk it over" with him. They love the non-aggression principle so much they just ignore how absurd that is when we are discussing children.

Free market capitalism isn't right for America because it works better. It's right because it's free (and it works better).

ROFLMFAO

I am sure we will disagree at some point on some issue but for now your making my arguments for me so +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1
ROFLMAO :D

"You only live free if your willing to die free."

so you're the bot with 10

so you're the bot with 10 accounts f'n up the vote system

O.o?

Are you seriously that dense?

"You only live free if your willing to die free."

It was a joke, man, lighten

It was a joke, man, lighten up... Or are you seriously that dense?

No...

not true, at least with me. Up until the age of about 2, when language development starts seriously, a child sees the world completely differently from you. It is all just one seamless flow; there is no I or You, just all is the same. Certainly, if the child is about to do something dangerous, you should remove them from the danger. I noticed with my neighbors that they treat their one year old like a dog; maybe it's a guy thing, but they play ball with the kid like they are teaching a dog how to play catch. Somehow that hand tapping thing also reminds me of training a dog...I guess it would work, though, because it hurts or startles the child and they withdraw the hand or whatever. I wouldn't do it.

as a parent you have a responsibility ....

to create a safe environment for your child...

If your child is about to touch a burning stove, spank yourself for poor parenting... not them for being curios.

www.SuccessCouncil.com
Protect your assets and profit from the greatest wealth transfer in history.

I was just wondering...

If you think inflicting physical pain on children teaches them to know the difference between right and wrong.

Do you think we should give the police spanking powers?

After all, you would soon learn to stop speeding if an officer pulled down your pants and spanked your bottom red, wouldn't you?

Or does it only work on kids?

I just lol:ed, upvote

I just lol:ed, upvote

sins of the fathers

for you parents who are deciding whether or not it is effective to hit a child, just go ahead and read the thread below to see how it becomes a pattern. Once somebody hits a child, then the kid will grow up and will do the same to their child.

there's a word for this.

It's called sins of the fathers and this type of behavior usually lasts generation after generation for over 100 years before somebody breaks the pattern. I bet every one of these people advocating it with their stories of how their parents whipped them and it resulted in correct behavior, also had parents who were hit, grandparents who were hit, and great-great grandparents who were hit.

I'm not a fan of Molyneux, but the video linked below is worth your consideration.

deacon's picture

Not always

I was abused as a child,I did not bring that into my home,Now,you might have point,if what you meant I typed.
D

If we deny truth before your very eyes,then the rest of what we have to say,is of little consequence

Yes, there are those who break the cycle

I wish I could find that passage from Isaiah. It's something about seven generations of curse, but there was more. It was something about a thousand generations of blessing for those who choose righteousness.

It's not easy to break free from what you were taught. The things that get passed down are powerful influences. Just to see that there was something wrong can be hard and those who can't have no hope of not burdening their children with their own burdens. And to choose and follow through on something different is a higher level of difficulty.

Defend Liberty!

deacon's picture

I am familiar with that passage

The way I look at things like that,is this
People have use of their own minds,it is theirs,and they have the ability
to use for good or bad,to say that this is the way i was taught,and I cannot change it is a cop out.No one has to do things just because something has been implanted into their brains,whether it is good or bad.
D

If we deny truth before your very eyes,then the rest of what we have to say,is of little consequence

Spanking your child is not assault....

...anymore than forcing them to live in your house is "kidnapping". They are not free in the way adults should be free because they are not adults. If you don't dictate many parts of their lives, they die. Obviously as they get older and you teach them more, you dictate less of their life. Nature forces you to be their dictator early on. Good parenting allows you to grant them their freedom later. To pretend like the non-aggression principal works on your 3 year old is to be ignorantly blind to all the ways you are a dictator to your child.

Free market capitalism isn't right for America because it works better. It's right because it's free (and it works better).