38 votes

DP Opinion poll on spanking.

I was commenting back and forth with another member about whether or not spanking a child was right or wrong. That other member happens to be from Sweden where spanking was made illegal back in 1979.

To clarify I am not asking if it is OK to abuse a child, such as a right hook to the face, or putting cigarettes out on them, but an open handed swat to the butt in rare circumstances, while keeping your cool, and with a measured amount of force. It happens to be legal where I live, (which is not what I use as a judgement of right and wrong).

The other member cited the non-aggression principal at one point, which I do not think applies fully to someone that is unable to understand their own best interests. We don't let 5 year old kids cast votes, nor do we cut them loose to live on the streets. Without the use of force, many kids would not ever bathe. Adults shouldn't be subjected to a nanny state, but I think kids should be, according to their maturity level/age.

So I am curious about everyone's opinion. If your opinion is one of a parent with practical knowledge of child rearing, as opposed to a single person's theoretical knowledge, I am curious about that too. If you never spank, what are your alternative disciplinary actions? I know my son would exercise civil disobedience if I tried to put his nose in a corner, or if I tried to imprison him in his room for a timeout.

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right on brother

Try and reason with a two year old......its like trying to reason with a politician. ....theyj hear and then do exactly what they told you they wouldn't. Maybe we should go back to flogging politician!

Regardless of the terminology

you use for it, it's not necessary. That's a big difference between that action and actions that fall under "things you should do".

Defend Liberty!

It is possible to raise

It is possible to raise children without hitting them.
It is possible to raise children well without hitting them.

Hitting them is a choice.

Because it is a choice, the NAP applies.

I disagree

Do you hold your wife down and dress her against her will? No.
Do you hold your baby down and change his diaper against his will? Yes.
I realize this is an almost absurd example, but it is a clear example of how you use force against your children. The younger they are, the more force you use and the more you dictate their lives.
You just want to ignore these natural truths and argue this from the perspective of a dad who is spanking his 17 year old college bound kid with a logical thinking brain. Obviously that kind of "force" on a kid who can think fairly clearly and is almost an adult is a bit excessive and probably very counter productive.
That doesn't however discount the fact that the younger your child is, the more your force is necessary and acceptable. When you get to talking about toddlers and infants, your control over them is nearly complete tyranny.

Free market capitalism isn't right for America because it works better. It's right because it's free (and it works better).

OK, if the result of the

OK, if the result of the choice is "Child Dies" or health is negatively impacted then sure, you will not get moral arguments from me about that. If that situation could have been prevented by early teaching, then yes, you will get a moral argument from me. Please feed, cloth, bath and love your children.

None of those actions require hitting them.

There are multitude alternative methods for dealing with unwanted behavior. Hitting them is one available option. If you choose that option, you are violating the NAP. The fact that at some other time, to protect the actual health of your child you might need to use force does not change the fact that choosing to hit them when other options are available is a choice and violates the NAP.

The fact proponents of "spanking" need to use a different word should be a clue to it's moral vulnerability. Kind of like Enhanced interrogation instead of torture.

Using violence, or the threat of violence, to achieve desirable behavior is sad and pathetic.

What conversation will you have with your child about hitting when they get older? Use a mirror and have that conversation with yourself today. It really is that simple.

All these mental gymnastics to justify an avoidable actions are really confusing to me. Start solving the problems of the initiation of force at home today. Commit to it and see what kind of alternative solutions you can come up with.

The NAP isn't a universal law of nature.

You accept that force needs to be used on youngsters to feed them, dress them, etc. And you accept that there are no other options at that age. I'm not defending spanking at this point, I'm just trying to help you see that children require different treatment than adults. The NAP simply isn't logical for a 1 year old.
Holding your wife down and forcing her to wear a dress you think she should wear violates the NAP correct? Well holding your baby down and changing his diaper requires the same act of agression (force) although on a much smaller scale?
Having said that, the NAP isn't really a good defense for why people shouldn't hit their kids because there are obvious times where it simply doesn't apply to a kid. A kid isn't a logical thinking adult human.
There are plenty of good arguments, but the NAP isn't one of them.

Free market capitalism isn't right for America because it works better. It's right because it's free (and it works better).

Got it, in your world all

Got it, in your world all adults are logical at all times and NAP only applies to people who have reached some arbitrary age. In my world, my own personal belief system, principles are not arbitrary.

I do not believe I ever fed my children against their will. They got hungry, they cried, I responded by feeding. I do not believe I ever changed my children's diapers against their will. They soiled themselves, they cried, I changed them. They used the communication tools they had available at the time. Body language and volume. I learned, as fast as I possibly could, to recognize those communication tools so as to begin the process of establishing good communication between us. They were that important to me. I made an actual effort to understand them on their level, not expect them to understand me on mine.

I have living, breathing, walking, peaceful evidence my way works. Both in the adult version and in the child version.

I get I am the outlier here. Something along the lines of 80% of parents in the world hit their kids to influence behavior. Look around and see the world we have.

I do not give a care one whit about the purity of a principle. Don't hit a kid. There is never a good reason to hit a kid. You are a garbage parent if you hit a kid. It is OK that you have been a garbage parent in the past if you are willing to change it moving forward, we all make mistakes. The only logical reason I can see for someone arguing it is OK to hit a kid is to cover their own guilt at hitting kids.

dA sNoWmAn

When I was in 5th grade I threw a snowball at an elderly lady in a church parking lot. My dad whooped my @$$ so hard I could hear my two sisters outside the door crying for me (and I couldn't sit for a week afterwards obviously). Long story short: it worked.

Fundamental logic flaw

'The other member cited the non-aggression principal at one point, which I do not think applies fully to someone that is unable to understand their own best interests.'

Well, then if you see someone wandering away from an old folk's home, or wandering into traffic due to Alzheimer's or mental deterioration, you should bend them over your knee and swat their ass until they're begging for forgiveness. Although, in that case you would probably be considered a lunatic, and thrown in prison for assault.

ChristianAnarchist's picture

Where's the poll?? Anyway I

Where's the poll?? Anyway I strongly agree with spanking. Worked great for us and for others we know. My wife's sister and her husband (a school teacher at the time) were determined to never spank their children when they had none. They tried it for a while and it worked pretty well with the first child (a girl) but then came the beloved son... After dealing with his hard head, they finally started spanking him. I have to say I know the boy well and if it weren't for the spanking, he would be a terror! Actually he still is a bit but he's getting better. Now if he were in the "public fool system" (he's home schooled) they would have him on all kinds of meds to calm him down. So I guess it comes down to do you want the "authorities" to calm your kid down with drugs or would you rather spank him when he acts out???

Beware the cult of "government"...

Christian Anarchist.. sounds

Christian Anarchist.. sounds like a huge oxymoron too me

My mom used Hot Wheels track.

My mom used Hot Wheels track. I tried it on my son but they don't make it like they used too. He only got 2 spankings before he figured out how to negotiate. Little twerp shoulda been a lawyer.

When i was a little boy

I killed a kitten, I thought they where the cutiest little critters. I just loved how they looked when you threw them high in the air.

My Dad made sure I respected life by giving me a good spanking. As hard headed as I was as a kid if he hadn't I would have killed more of the kittens.

So How many kittens could I kill before anyone would spank me? I think there were seven.

Surviving the killing fields of Minnesota

Todays brainwashing: GMO's are safe

to kill pets is basically the

to kill pets is basically the first sign being of a sociopath, seek help..

how can a 4 year old be a sociopath,

I just didn't understand what death was. I remember watching cartoons on Saturday and all those characters were killed every weekend. I really thought the kitten was going to wakeup after a nap. I had no problem doing the same to all the rest of the kittens until my sister ran and got our dad.

I have to admit the next day I really felt bad for the kitten, but in the moment I didn't care.

Surviving the killing fields of Minnesota

Todays brainwashing: GMO's are safe

While a four year old is

While a four year old is absolutely a developing individual there can still be onset signs of unwanted and dangerous psychological behavior even at such an early age.

I am surprised that your parents didn't take this seriously and get you and your family help. If you start early a lot can be done.

I hope you are well and in a good place today

LOL that little story happened 60 years ago

funny how one remmembers certain things and can hardly recall anything else from that age. I think my sister had something to do with it, because four years later she was hit and killed by a drunk driver when I was with her.

Surviving the killing fields of Minnesota

Todays brainwashing: GMO's are safe

You think karma killed your

You think karma killed your sister?

BTW: aren't you a little old to be using words like LOL? :D just kidding, but I found it funny.


It was a stupid radio anouncer that decided to get drunk on his butt and drive to the country bar just up the road. We just happened to be on a 35 mi curve and he was doing 70. I never believe in good or bad Karma.

I think her death is what kept the kitten story in my mind, because I remembered it when I was looking at her in her casket. She was crying over that little kitten I killed, and I didn't see the big deal of it all. But then I wished I could have taken it back.

LOL, when I first got on the DP I had to go look it up, then I started figuring out some of the other jargon. My daughter used to say it all the time thinking I didn't know what see was refering too. When see has trouble with her computer or can't print out home work, it seem good ol dad is the only one that can fix it.

So at my age I am pretty computer savvy. I remember taking a computer class over 30 years ago, I started out the dumbest in the class. My instructor even made fun of me, asking when the light was going to come on up stairs. By the end of the classes I was at the very top of the class. My biggest down fall was that I had to analyse everything. At that time everything was machine language, not like now.

Surviving the killing fields of Minnesota

Todays brainwashing: GMO's are safe

No it's not.

Anymore than swatting flies or poisoning mice.

If someone's pet was killed that would be more concerning.

Free includes debt-free!

Wat? didn't you just say one

Wat? didn't you just say one thing and then the exact opposite?

There was no indication that the kittens were pets.

But I agreed with you that malice against someone else's property was cause for concern.

Free includes debt-free!

3 down votes, I would have killed 3 more kittens

I quess you wannabe Oprah Winfrey's have no answer for real life situations on the fly.

Surviving the killing fields of Minnesota

Todays brainwashing: GMO's are safe

So he did not say a word, he

So he did not say a word, he just walked up and started spanking you and from that you understood he wanted you to stop killing kittens?
So it was just a Pavlovian response? Or even at this young age you could reason out what his silent meaning was, proving you are capable of logic and reason.

My guess (and it is just a guess) is that there were some words exchanged as well. If my guess is accurate and there were words exchanged, was it the spanking or the words that corrected the behavior?

If it was the words, the spanking wasn't necessary. If it was the spanking, it means you had no respect for your father words.

Again based on my guess, the fact that your father required physical reinforcement for you to take his words seriously is his failing. In my opinion, in this situation you were spanked because your father failed to instill self respect and respect for others before leaving you alone with small kittens.

Don't worry - this post was made for haters.

Continue the discussion on spanking here: http://www.dailypaul.com/270126/buy-me-some-candy-or-ill-hol...

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Never found a need to spank

my kids turned out great without any physical motivation. Talking and explaining (ie. teaching) are much more effective in my circumstance.

Now for my wife....well that's a different discussion

Well put in the above

Well put in the above paragraph but I really hope you didn't strike your wife..........

Same here. However I do not

Same here. However I do not rule out the use. I only found it unnecessary. Sometimes, I would surmise, physical responses are the only way to get something through. How to behave/interact with other people is real world stuff. A child by default gives up a certain amount of non aggression principal when the child is still dependent.

I am sorry to say, but the science is well and truly in...

Spanking is very bad for kids.

Great thread by the way.

This interview I did might really help some of you on a journey to non-violent parenting.

By the way. Many argue Violent-parenting establishes tolerance in humans for accepting an all powerful government to rule over them. Some argue the best way to achieve a Libertarian culture is for peaceful parenting.

Protect your assets and profit from the greatest wealth transfer in history.

Wow, that interview was just

Wow, that interview was just amazing, really a top-notch job by you and Stephan. I hope people take the time to watch it.