28 votes

Anyone ever think that the idea of "fighting climate change" is ridiculous?

The more that I think about it, the more the entire premise seems ridiculous. I'm no scientist so I guess I can't try and convey my point of view by pointing out the fact that new studies suggest that the average earth surface temperature was substantially higher a few thousand years ago, or that none of the horrifying predictions made over the last few decades have come anywhere near true, or even that the temperature doesn't seem to be going up. But at least people could start to recognize the economic damage being done by this obsession over CO2 and come to terms with the idea that maybe our politicians are only so crazy about climate change because it is the perfect way to funnel money to their friends.

The real reason that fighting climate change sounds so ridiculous to me is because it seems to suggest that climate stagnation is the desired goal. So today when some guy told me that I need to be concerned about fighting climate change I told him that what we really need to fight is continental drift. Some day Russia might run into Alaska if we don't do something about it.



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Yes

the climate change hysteria is man-made.

"Climate change" is blown out of proportion, and it can be argued that higher overall temperatures are a good thing for a lot of species.
When we have the choice between poluting the air or investing in alternative energies that don't, I think the benefits outweigh the additional costs, wether climate change is real or not.

Napolitano: "We need Ron Paul now!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3k3JNRTVI0Q

ChristianAnarchist's picture

Puny little "man" is too

Puny little "man" is too small of a force to change the climate in any way. When you look at the volume of the atmosphere or oceans or rock on this planet and then look at the "volume" of pollution us little tiny humans can output, there's NO WAY (if you rule out biological or nuclear) we can "change" the planet. The amount of garbage we put out is miniscule in comparison to the planet (and really, most of that "garbage" came from the soil in some way so it's just going home). Look at the amount of pollutants we put into the atmosphere and compare that to ONE large volcanic eruption and you can see that our impact is minimal. Look at the absolutely gigantic forest fires that occurred throughout history that now no longer occur because we have the ability to monitor and put out fires before they wipe out entire forests and weight that against the small amount of carbon we put out and you can see that our "impact" on this big blue ball is microscopic in relation to the whole picture.

In case you haven't watched it, George Carlin did a fantastic number about how the "planet" can shake us off like a bad case of the fleas...

Beware the cult of "government"...

not at all

I think a weather control device would be awesome. Just imagine, snow for christmas, cool summers, warm winters, no tornadoes. Lets build a weather control device that stops any climate change we dont want. :D

That said I dont believe in man made global warming or cooling.

Climate change (or global warming) is ridiculous

It's been proven to be false, but they continue to use it for control.

Unless we get away from an

Unless we get away from an oil based economy/society the writing is on the wall. It has run it's course and cannot last.

Which wall is it written on and did the IPCC write it?

Maybe it`s programmed into the IPCC climate prediction computers. Oil base will end some day just like everything does and we will adapt and evolve. In the meantime we don`t need to squander resources on BS like the global warming crap and those who profit by it.

It is hard to imagine a more stupid or more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people that pay no price for being wrong.
Thomas Sowell

Birds and fish are dying

Birds and fish are dying because they are eating bottle caps, tooth brushes, and cigarette lighters. The world is just plain being choked to death because of petroleum and it's corporate use. My body doesn't digest plastic does yours? I would much prefer the fish.

What about synthetic oil?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for clean energy, but it's simply not feasible on a large scale as of right now.

A signature used to be here!

Point well taken

I am living in Asia now, where its a lot more consumer friendly in food markets, where you buy fruit out of a box from the farm, rather than going to a supermarket and buying individually packaged stuff. Just this year, they started wrapping each orange in a plastic bag or each pear in a Styrofoam package. I just don't get who is pushing this junk for packaging.

Also, when I was in the USA, I tried to buy paper or glass packaged products at Costco. I don't shop there anymore because there's only about a handful of products that fall into this category. I don't want plastic containers or metal containers but the big stores simply don't package stuff that way anymore. Sad and wasteful. So I'm boycotting it as much as possible by moving to other countries that don't have this kind of business.

The psychology of saying CO2 is harmful is basically training people to believe they are bad because they exhale. And the tax schemes made up to block CO2 will only hurt individuals, not companies, as the costs will be passed to consumers and the pollution problem never solved. Scientifically speaking, CO2 has no R value big enough to cause any insulation in the atmosphere, so it does not contribute to cooling or heating. Water and dirt contribute to warming and cooling, but not CO2.

I have many issues with it...

I have many issues with it... For one, what is natural?? Isn't everything already on this earth, no matter if remade into something else, still from here and natural? I don't quite get this argument that we are polluting the earth with.... the substances on earth.

The other thing, what is it in a humans egotistical head that make them believe that they own the power of the planet.. Seriously, this earth is how old again? And people believe that our small insignificant speck of a species changes the whole system? I think not.. and science says not.

People say that the ice is melting in the North Pole, and it may very well be true, but that does NOT mean it has to do with plastic water bottles not being recycled or natural oil emissions going into the atmosphere. It may just be that time in this planets cycle where it slightly shifts once again.
I even got into it the other day about a person telling me that we're running out of water.... I almost fucking flipped... Did we not all learn about the water cycle in elementary school? That water never really leaves, it just turns into another form. The only reason WE the people see less water is because we let corporations (Gov built up monopolies) buy up our natural water sources and sell it back to us. AND then let the law makers outlaw keeping our own reservoirs.

All I know is that these shifts have been going on for millions of years.. The Earth will be here forever, us on the other hand... may not. To the global warming people, get over yourself.

One issue I have with the idea of

a "war on Climate Change," which I think any libertarian could agree with, is, what person in their right mind would wish to set the precedent of giving the federal government the legal authority to control the climate?

Most of us agree that this government has way too much power as it it (I personally believe that ANY government power is too much). Think of all the atrocities and mayhem and general unhappiness they are responsible for, and imagine them obtaining the legal authority to control the climate. This would just be one more tool in their genocidal toolbox.

What if the technology of climate modification were someday advanced enough to use it as a weapon? Do we really want this?

Yes...

It's patently absurd. If we found out tomorrow that the world would be entering into a new global ice age within the next 100 years, there would not be damn thing we could do about it...And if the climate was ever going to wipe out us humans, it'd be with cold, not heat. So if there is any validity to man made global warming, I say we go full speed ahead b/c we are going to need all the CO2 we can get to combat the next ice age (although, technically I think we are still in an ice age...)

"When I say liberty I do not simply mean what is referred to as 'free enterprise.' I mean liberty of the individual to think his own thoughts and live his own life as he desires to think and to live..." - Robert A. Taft

last ice age(s)

yes, technically, we just came out of last major ice age (LGM or LAST GLACIAL MAXIM) a mere 20,000 years ago.and look how we have blossomed, in leaps and bounds!!!

ps: had a brief scare with the 'little ice age' back in 1500's, which ended in 1850's..and foreward we went,
ESPECIALLY in the last 100.

I feel like there should be

I feel like there should be an easy compromise.

Look, I don't like pollution. And, I don't know if it is affecting the climate, but polluting the Earth can't be good for it. And cleaning it up is 100% going to incur a cost sometime down the road.

It isn't just pollution. It is the deforestation. Endangered wildlife. Dumping waste into the ocean. All these landfills. Nuclear waste. Etc, etc. Over-consumption leading to excessive waste production.

When I see these factories with those huge smokestacks, spewing out smog and pollution into the air...why are they allowed to do so? Forget about global temperatures...think about air quality!

Think about the way everything has been flipped. If I toss my gum wrapper on a public street, I could get a $100 fine for littering. And I should for being so lazy that I couldn't find a garbage can for it. But if a big-agro company dumps a shitload of waste into a river, we tell him that if he doesn't do it anymore, we'll pay him for it! To the tune of 10 billion a year, the Federal Government pays farmers to dispose of their waste in a clean manner. Why aren't these companies being told to dispose their waste properly, or suffer big fines?

Plan for eliminating the national debt in 10-20 years:

Overview: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/my-plan-for-reducin...

Specific cuts; defense spending: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/more-detailed-look-a

Heat rises and all that heat

Heat rises and all that heat being trapped in the earth's ozone is causing global warming.

I WISH!

The global warming/climate change CO2ers like to screw humanity both ways.

Global warming is a load of crap.

Anyone who thinks 6 billion ants on earth are more powerful than the star of our solar system called the sun is getting a government paycheck or is under the heavy influence of someone getting a government paycheck.

What a crock.

What's the next big load of manure people will be willing to swallow?

"People that eat meat cause global warming," that's next because the psychopathic people in charge of the planet want to eliminate the basic building blocks of life.

Amino acids are the new Al Qaeda.

Never be afraid to ask simple questions.

join the fight against polar shifting...

(along with pandas) the true menace.

Defeat the panda-industrial complex

I am dusk icon. anagram me.

What's ridiculous is this focuss on climate change

So they have us arguing about is it HUMAN INDUCED climate change or not?

Meanwhile the waterways, the fish have been declared unsafe for regular consumption over large portions of this land, the water is undrinkable is most of the open water, the cities are poluted cesspools, species of flora and fauna are going extinct faster than ever, dimming on this and other continents is an absolute fact due to air traffic, the pacific ocean just got irraditated, we got corexit sludge for water in the gulf, cude dumping out over in Texas, agricultural runoff screwing up the entire Mississippi river ecosystem, the crap surrounding Manhattan island isn't water, pray you don't get dipped in it and everything we buy or consume comes wrapped in petrochemical waste not to mention what's in the wrapper. What's in the wapper is produced in China. The solar cells produced anywhere are massively environmentally costly. Lithium batteries are HIDEOUSLY environmentally costly. All that polution cost isn't born exclusively by China. Matter of fact, it gets blown right across the Pacific and right at us.

The quality of life for all living things continues to degrade and yet we wanna fight with hippies about statistics.

Be brave, be brave, the Myan pilot needs no aeroplane.

Eliminate global coolers, those madmen who like ice ages!

We need to eliminate global coolers, those clinically insane madmen who like ice ages! They want to make the earth an ice ball, with two mile high glacial ice sheets pressing down right where my house is located. Famine, mass extinction, genocide.

What the hell is wrong with these people?!

"Cowards & idiots can come along for the ride but they gotta sit in the back seat!"

Yes.

I'm all for trying to keep the environment clean, but that's a whole different animal and I don't need government force to do so.

There's a huge distinction between

corporations that are polluting the world, and the idea that humans are evil because we exhale carbon dioxide. I'd like to see a gov't that actually goes after companies that are polluting, rather than forcing the people to pay for the aftermath by recycling, paying for medical services for children with asthma, paying for clean water from companies when we should have clean water right out of our streams, etc...

Sure, blame the corporations

because they're polluting in a big way. But don't discount the average person as well. Since there's so many more people just living their daily lives in a wasteful way, the collective problem is much more their fault.

After all, who needs an F-750 Global Warmer / Hummer conversion at multiple tons each, loaded with personal conveniences just to run to the store for chips and beer? I've seen it happen and not just a few isolated instances. What's even worse is people that have 8 mpg tricked out 4x4 trucks they use to commute to their job 5 days a week with one person. Or when a housewife goes to the store every single day for a small amount of groceries instead of once every 7-14 days. Or when a ill-timed stop light kills all the momentum of dozens of cars every 75 seconds instead of letting them coast on through.

I could go on for days with this stuff but overall, it's the habits, combined with the inefficient equipment and the wasteful business model that causes most of our waste. Did you know that of the goods produced today worldwide, 95% of it will be in a landfill in 6 months? That includes packaging and shipping materials, billing materials, safety additions, convenience and instruction materials and many other things. You can't simply buy a phone today without supporting box makers, instruction printers, plastic bag makers, wire tie makers, shrink wrap makers, retail chain materials and paper receipt makers. I've even heard that 15% of wire, 7% of metal, 24% of plastic and 18% of nuts/bolts/screws in every car are there just to guarantee nothing rattles or appears unsightly to the customer for 5 years. My estimate puts that around 300 pounds total.

If you want to talk water, then the problem is multiple reasons to blame multiple groups. People directly use between 80 and 200 gallons per day each. Most of that runs directly from faucet to drain. We let it run to get hot or to get cold or while we're scrubbing or brushing or peeling or many other tasks. Compounding this is the fact that we got suckered into becoming a nation that uses corn and soy beans to control poor countries. Those two crops use lots of irrigation (while killing the soil the most) just to make energy-losing ethanol, to keep African farmers from staying in business and to keep the American population hooked on high fructose corn syrup poison sugar.

So the idea that others are so bad because they lay some blame on individual humans activity (I've never seen claims to tax human exhaled CO2) isn't so far out there.

However, if people can get past the side-picking animosity, they'll see that there are solutions to every problem that don't involve any compromise, cost or crisis. They just have to stop being overly defensive.

Climate change or weather warfare?

Ever look up in the sky and see that tic tac toe pattern that is being sprayed by an airplane and doesn't dissipate but instead turns the clear sky cloudy to be followed in the next day or two by a "polar vortex" storm and a 40 degree temp fluctuation? What about the reports on HAARP, geoengineering, weather modification, global dimming, etc? You think the folks with unlimited money printing abilities would limit their interventionism to accumulating wealth and power would not try to "intervene" in the weather too? What exactly is expected to go on at a "climate hub" anyway?

The second global

Warming doesn't appeal to .0001% of the worlds population is the day people will care.

Ask people in Haiti if it was worth it?

I think even if it was true we live in a world of extremes this earth is going to freeze or get cooked. There is no way around this, and global warming to me is people that are so full of illusion they actually believe they have the power to change something they don't even understand.

Also when they actually find out HOW the climate works these people are virtually gauranteed to be wrong. IF there is anything science has taught me that elements that harbor life are stronger than we will ever give them credit for.

Just think 100 years ago most of biology was for arguing racial supremacy. (Google Civic Biology - the book from the scopes trial and open your eyes -- hell just read the chapter titles)

If we all join together, hold

If we all join together, hold hands and wish upon a star, together we can finally end the tragedy that scientists call "change". /s

It's sad this is humorous to so many people

I can look back and remember a time when I was skeptical too. But as a scientist/engineer type, I did the smart thing. I didn't "think" on my own about how dumb it sounds, I did the research. I checked the predictions and I checked the motives of those on both sides. I also followed the money on both sides. And ya know what? I found out a few things that are wrong with the denialist side.

Basically, there's two sides that are nefariously trying to spin the issue and make future gains from it. Ok, but I had to ask, "does this fact influence the actual physical situation?" The obvious answer is no.

So, the next question became, "Is it real." That answer quickly became contested but overall it's been swaying faster and faster toward yes.

So, the next question, "Is it a problem." That is a definite and emphatic yes.

And next, the two questions came simultaneously... "Is it anthroprogenic and can we slow or stop it?" Yes, and maybe.

So, I embarked on tons of research to see exactly what it would take to reduce it. When I used only publicly known facts and estimates, it seemed unworthy of the effort. I suspect this is where most libertarian types reside. But when researching solutions, I didn't stop at 'no one has done that yet'. I designed solutions and built prototypes and mapped out business plans. What I ended up with is a full set of technologies, some mine and the rest just getting started by others, that collectively can do just what is needed.

The good side of this is that the overall plan eliminates our dependency on fossil fuels and does so for the same or less cost (first decade totals) and then continues at no cost. It doesn't JUST satisfy this need but along the way, things got integrated together and many other needs and desires were covered as well.

In short, the entire collection can, if adopted by a given family, can provide all of their needs and most wants by replacing 'rented' systems with owned ones. The amazing part is that after they're paid off (between 2 and 10 years concurrently for each solution), they can last indefinitely, kind of like a fence which gets mended as needed. And economically, said family can now eliminate their debt and end their support of the banking scandal, as well as pass on that ability to their heirs. You wanna end the Fed? That would do it.

So, the new problem became raising money and that turned into convincing others of the viability. I found it amazing how I could flat out tell people that the solution(s) were known and they not only didn't believe it but they didn't even have the freakin' curiosity to ask for proof. People just didn't care, even if it seemed to be their life's mission to fix this problem. They were simply too fixated on the only path being that some major trans-national corporation would be the one to solve a given problem. It certainly couldn't have been done by someone at home.

Along this path, I did find one group willing to listen. Those that had solved other parts of the list of problems were all too eager to join up and complain collectively. When this became unproductive, it became obvious that a collective group with a common goal would have more bargaining power. While that may have been true, it was also a self-defeating factor. It seems that when people don't believe you have a big problem solved, partnering up with others to say your group has most of the big problems solved becomes even more unbelievable.

As a group, we turned to energy groups, grant organizations, well known research groups, institutional and private investors, advocacy groups, political groups (all parties), politicians themselves and even international entities. It's been nearly a decade in this hunt and things are just beginning to take shape, no thanks at all to any of those listed above. So, now it will happen and it will be great and every one of you can take heart in knowing that your childish attitude and dismissive trust in your fellow man did nothing to help aside from increase the cynicism and resolve of those actually doing it.

Over the years, I have had a kind of warm appreciation for this site and its members. I have posted a fair amount of original material here, testing to see who has interest or passion. As a result, I have made dozens of friends from this site alone that have offered to help in some way. Whether it was building a web site, creating a video, editing a book, making some mechanical parts, tutoring on agriculture or animals, modeling something in CAD, 3D printing or any other need that I/we have had, there was no shortage of people offering to help because they possessed some related skill or resource. Unfortunately, in every single one of those 30+ offers directly from this site's members (a few thousand from all the groups)... NOT A SINGLE ONE HAS FULFILLED THEIR PROMISE. They/you know who they/you are (most are still here) and they will just have to live with it.

So, if you want to know why the issues of global warming, climate change, wars for oil, pollution, fracking, deforestation, water shortage, world hunger, technological unemployment, social commercialization, inequality, the Fed, political corruption, unchecked police state expansion... or a number of other issues that are often just accepted now... if you're wondering why those aren't being fixed or why they've become footballs (political or otherwise), just look at this group. You're not unique but you are one of the biggest poster children for whining about stuff that you won't tackle yourself.

Congratulations.

I applaud the fact that you

I applaud the fact that you moved past ideology and rhetoric and looked at the research. This is a subject that requires research. The answer is not something you can just "think on your own" about.

Plan for eliminating the national debt in 10-20 years:

Overview: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2010/09/12/my-plan-for-reducin...

Specific cuts; defense spending: http://rolexian.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/more-detailed-look-a

how far back did your research go?

please point out the correlation between CO2 and Temp over the geologic record...

proverbs 20:15
There is gold, and an abundance of jewels;
But the lips of knowledge are a more precious thing.

I tend to think that global

I tend to think that global warming is real too from the little i've seen and read about it. But I'm aware that much of what we think has a certain bias to it and that most of our biases exist because we haven't put in the work necessary to research the issue. We are basically trusting authority and we decide which authority to believe based on these biases. So I'm cautious and open to any good arguments regarding this.

If you guys have any links for me regarding this (evidence based with no mudslinging if possible), either pro or against, I would be much obliged.

I always told myself I needed to research this issue more thoroughly, but I never got around to it. Might as well start now.

The hardest part is separating science from spin

If you're just starting out, I would go back 25 years to the first IPCC assessment https://www.ipcc.ch/ipccreports/1992%20IPCC%20Supplement/IPC...

Look that over (it's a short version) and see what was said before everything became political or about industry entrenchments. It's amazing how many things people now say are new or how many missed predictions there are. This report shows how most of what we're seeing today was predicted and even underestimated back in 1990. It kills the claim that Bush II changed "global warming" to "climate change" because of politics (since this report detailed out what both terms mean before his father left the office). It even predicts how surface and air temps should rise early and then plateau as the ocean begins to soak up the excess heat. (That 'pause' is often cited today as some kind of proof that predictions were wrong.)

After that, go find the latest one and see the difference. When you read through it, you'll notice that it goes to great lengths to avoid political spin by sticking to hard facts.

From there, I would suggest the main articles of Wikipedia and to focus on the debate in the comments of major articles. See who has the science on their side (not the baseless attacks) and read their cited sources.

Once you complete all that interests you there, you'll likely find that foreign oil dependence or fracking or methane release or water pollution/depletion or the failure of EROEI or the petro-dollar or the biggest social one (Technological Unemployment) are even more perilous reasons to fix things so you'll probably stop worrying about any of the problems and just start looking for solutions. I know I did.