13 votes

What is your ideology worth to me?

Hello, I am Smudge Pot.

Like many of you, I was born on this planet through no fault or choice of my own.

I am one of those "white indians" you hear about. I'm like 90whatever % white but that small % of native I am is very large.

The author Sherman Alexie makes fun of people like me. Part breeds. But it doesn't matter what you are or what your lineage is, if you are born here, on this soil, that means you are what we call am American.

Never mind that this means two continents and that's why we call South Americans Americans too. That distinction comes in a hemispherical sense: North and South, we are all Americans by virtue of the fact that the continents we dwell upon happen to be contiguously connected but I digress.

I am intrigued, as a part blood Native American by this fact that your Constitution recognizes certain rights and among these are the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. But there is this issue of property law.

We are up against a problem here.

See in your paradigm (and I'm taking the part of Native American here) property is property. You can own it to the exclusion of all others. And now all the land is"owned" by you directly through purchase or via BIA or the federal principality. In short, everybody owns everything and our values hold that in order to have anything you have to create something that people want to buy or at the least, you buy or rent a place to simply BE.

Let us consider this from your perspective: you were literally brought into this world, you are in fact DERIVED from a conjugal act and if you got conjugated on this part of this continent we CONFER upon you certain "rights" and among these are the rights to whatever but guess what?

YOU ARE NOT AUTOMATICALLY CONFERRED WITH A PLACE TO BE.

ANY STEP YOU TAKE FROM YOUR WHOLE ORIGINATION POINT IS AT BEST GIVEN AS LARGESSE FOR TELL ME DIFFERENT IF YOU WILL:

HUMAN BEINGS, AT THE POINT OF ORIGINATION, IN OTHER WORDS AS INFANTS HAVE A SURVIVABILITY FACTOR OF 0 WITHOUT DIRECT INTERVENTION..

PERIOD.

Which means you came into this world and you are reading this now because somebody considred you to be something less than garbage.

OK so they covered your butt as far as getting born, they had to eat food and keep metabolizing enough to deposit your sorry ass on this planet.

And now here you are and you got rights. To bla di bla bla bla but your first task is to find someplace to BE.

See this whole planet is owned. And you have the right to be "here" in an esoteric sense but now you have to pay for it.

YOU LITERALLY HAVE TO CONVERT YOUR LIFE ENERGY TO GIVE TO ANOTHER PERSON JUST TO HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE YOU IN A PLACE.

Otherwise they chase you off and call you vagrant.

So, highly intelligent capitalists, tell me how individuality or how ownership is ennobled by the fact that kids keep getting born with all rights but yet have no place to physically be?

Does our right to existence come with real estate? How about clean air? How about pure water to drink? How about the opportunity to meet the animals?

ALL OF THIS YOU WIPE AWAY NOW IN THE CREDIT OF YOUR OWNERSHIP SYSTEM AND YOU DEPRIVE ALL FUTURE GENERATIONS OF THE POWER OF CHOICE.

AND THE CHOICE IS THIS: WE COULD PRESERVE THE CHOICE BUT YOU AND YOUR CAPITALISTIC AND MATERIALISTIC CULTURE IMPLICITLY AND DE FACTO HAS SAID

that the future does not matter.

All you have is a right to be here and try and you get no guarantee of oxygen or trees or flowers and you get no right to pandas and cats and dogs and tasty deer and elf and you don't get to meet bear and you don't get to swim in lakes and you don't get to canoe down rivers because why?

Because the people that owned this land before you made a decision and it want' for your benefit: they just decided to EAT IT ALL.

EVERYTHING.

AND LEAVE YOU WITH A PILE OF WASTE.

AND GUESS WHAT?

THIS IS YOUR SYSTEM OF CAPITALISM AND OWNERSHIP. WHO HAS THE MOST MONEY OWNS IT AND THEY ARE FREE TO DEPRIVE YOU OF ACCESS AND ENJOYMENT OF IT and the point I am making is rather brutal:

You are born with the right to exist but to have someplace to EXIST IN?

That you have to pay for.

You can BE but you have no right to BE ANY PLACE.

For that you have to pay. And you have to pay somebody else. And they own it and they own all the land and the animals and they do as they please.

And you get to pay them for the privilege of not killing you and rendering you homeless which is an actual crime in many places, in other words,

you are born and if you don't pay somebody to have a place to be in or you go to jail.

Discuss.



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OK this one is prep work for the next posts. My source,

my source of authority. Presently.

I might have indicated how pretty much all my life I have basically been attended or under the tutillage or one elder or another and sometimes they literally just came to me.

Like how at one point somebody gave me a book about spirit warriors and the Lakota 7 Ceremonies and I was considering this and all the sudden this gal I was dating said "hey I heard they are calling spirit warriors to washington dc are you going?"

and i'm like well i didn't until you just said so. Wait who is calling whom?

Lakota. Pine Ridge but also Rosebud.

Oh. Ok for why?

We are gonna try to heal the Earth.

Oh. Well OK.

I mean I was just reading these books and grooving with it and the call comes. Ok, here we go.

Turns out what we had to do was a traditional capacity that I know and it's called Dream Dancing. That's actually my primary role, I am a Dream Dancer which means we literally dance dreams into reality.

In this case, a very great man called Harry Bird had a vision and that as all people of all traditions dancing as one in our nation's capitol with the elders of many nations being honored in the center.

So we danced that dream.

Ever year we danced that dream.

And it went from a small circle with a pipe to a dozen tipis set up just North of the Washington monument.

And we heard teachigns of prophecy from elders of many nations such that nobody had ever really heard and all these simlilarities. And we looked into prophecy. And there I ran into many old faces, I remember who introduced me to The Pipe, The One True Pipe, the Channupa; Clyde Bellecort in Florida in I think 1986. And some new faces like Arvol who I dearly whish every single one of you could meet because while Russel was fierce and Clyde is literally awesome, Arvol Lookinghorse is just honey sweet.

Hey anybody wanna talk about HEREDITARY PROPERTY? Arvol Lookinghorse is the HEREDITARY BEARER OF A PIPE THAT IS A PROMISE TO ALL OF HUMANITY FOR ALL TIME.

WANT TO TALK ABOUT HEREDITARY PROPERTY? TO US IT'S A BURDEN. TO US IT'S SOMETHING TO BE TAKEN CARE OF AND SHARED TO ALL PEOPLE. NOT YOUR GET-OFF-IT-IT'S-MINE PROPERTY UNDERSTANDING YOU INTELLECTUAL AND SPIRITUAL GNATS.

Aw sorry that was harsh but that's some of what we're up against here.

Guys this might become not-esoteric sooner than I like. I know you and what I really wanna do is prepare you for leadership.

I see you as the leaders and now I know I can trust you to screw logic and take care of the people.

Let's just work out the logic a bit more carefully and NO FIRING PLEASE AT THIS TIME EH?

it's always a strategic mistake to let the enemy dictate the time table.

love you guys.

Be brave, be brave, the Myan pilot needs no aeroplane.

When I was in the 2nd grade there was a girl who was a

Jehovah's Witness.

I asked why she didn't celebrate her birthday and she said it was because it took glory from God and put it on the person.

I agreed and haven't told anyone my birthday since.

Defeat the panda-industrial complex

I am dusk icon. anagram me.

Cyril's picture

Confirmed

I live with one of them.

I can confirm on this rationale I was given about it, too.

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

OK I'm stick of this post how about you guys?

I'm tired of spanking you. Next comes the flail. Or the yucca whip. Oh yeah, yucca whip. Man that's gonna suck. You are gonna hate that.

Thing is I had these matters on my heart for a long time and well, timing is everythign and now this guy Bundy has somehow managed to bring up like 50 issues at once and well, sometimes you don't chose when to fight, somebody brings a fight to you.

RIGHT NOW NATIVE AMERICANS ARE FIGHITNG IN CANADA AND THEY ARE MY RELATIONS. Mostly Algonquinn/Wabbenake peoples and they are tied in with my heritage, in a native sense they are all "uncle" and "auntie" to me. Even the kids.

There's some stuff I'm gonna say that will maybe hurt you and cause you to have doubt. Gonna tell you now I love you and I think there's some things you need to know and consider like you are now. You people have proved to me that you can consider things. But I hope it draws our people together beause you guys have capability and enthusiasm and creativity and understanding of law and we have something you can't get from paper.

We can do something for you. We have and we are.

We have a moral and spiritual authority and we can confer upon you something that only God can do besides us:

We can actually make you welcome here and recognize your HEREDITARY RIGHTS.

Remember what Russell Means said to you? I am part of his order. He said YOU ARE THE NEW INDIANS NOW. That means you will need the power and medicine of us old indians.

Combined with your capability, can you imagine what you could become?

Cause I can. I can almost taste it.

I beleive in you. Even more than I can say right now. I believe in you.

Be brave, be brave, the Myan pilot needs no aeroplane.

Never heard that argument before

But I have heard some similar ones. Its profound and it is a problem. The similar argument I heard is suppose someone buys all the land around you leaving you a square to live on-- can he essentially tax you or lay seige to you and kill you? Common law says that property rights do not extend that far-- there is a concept of easement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easement.
It is the plug that solves the problem. You cant use your property rights to kill someone.
Thinking about your argument maybe we need to acknowledge that homeless people have easement rights and they are not just living on municipal grace.

I have been submerged in Jiddu K lately and this is resonating

"All ideologies are idiotic, whether religious or political, for it is conceptual thinking, the conceptual word, which has so unfortunately divided man."

Jiddu Krishnamurti

Do you see Smudge Pot? This is the problem with man. We say I am American and my way of living is the correct way. Therefore, all others must be wrong, no? Or, I am a Muslim, and your religion is in conflict with my belief, therefore you are wrong. Or, I am a capitalist or I am a Democrat or I am a Native American.....Do you see? All of it is what makes us slaves and what makes us violent and what makes us live in conflict.

On the same token, what if we were just humans? Until we realize this basic truth we can never be free.

"I honor the place in you where Spirit lives
I honor the place in you which is
of Love, of Truth, of Light, of Peace,
when you are in that place in you,
and I am in that place in me,
then we are One."

;)
DEX

For Freedom!
The World is my country, all mankind is my brethren, to do good is my religion.

Yeah I see that but what to do about it?

Property rights also do a lot of good.

Usually when I ask you guys a question I already have an answer. This one just keeps looping around. Any potential solution just opens up more cans of worms.

Be brave, be brave, the Myan pilot needs no aeroplane.

All

of the people on the planet could live in Texas with a population density less than that of New York city so there's plenty of land out there. There would be even more if governments with no right to own land are holding vast amounts with the excuse of saving some useless animal. There are also still some places in the US where you can get a free house and land if you are willing to move in.

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2010/10/19/click-here-for-free-l...

"Endless money forms the sinews of war." - Cicero, www.freedomshift.blogspot.com

Neat link!

Yeah and there's a couple other tricks. There are still some scraps and fragments of homestead land here but it's all the most useless land. There's also mining claims but prices fluctuate. You can also build a raft out of garbage and float it out to sea. But as you see in your link, a lot of those deals require significant investment so...you still have to deal with the man.

Be brave, be brave, the Myan pilot needs no aeroplane.

Cyril's picture

My ideology :

Liberty.

LIberty.

LiBerty.

LibErty.

LibeRty.

LiberTy.

LibertY.

Liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty !

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

Cyril's picture

Let Us Now Try Liberty !

Let Us Now Try Liberty !

http://bastiat.org/en/the_law.html#SECTION_G076

:)

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

Cyril's picture

Haut les coeurs!

Haut les coeurs!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9ap7tzw43E

<3

"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.

http://Laissez-Faire.Me/Liberty

"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius

I enjoyed it.

I think it is truly sad that everything is "owned". It's actually mind-blowing - that every spot you look at on earth has an "owner". It's absurd... How could a human "own" even a piece of the earth?

Did/does Native American culture recognize the right to the property one can personally or tribally protect? I believe Native Americans fought many wars to protect their access to natural resources. It seems to be a function of the laws of nature.

I view humans as biological creatures first and foremost. They will consume what they can. They will concoct systems to bully in order to consume more and hold onto more. It's a biological problem.

I consider myself a Native American because I was born here. But also, I think you once (or someone else) wrote a piece talking about how some Native Americans believed/taught that their ancestors would be reborn here as "white" people... I feel it deeply.

By the way - excellent title!!! Oyate.

Looks like you're seeing the situation now.

Yes. Concerning property rights...the emporor has no clothes.

Here is a suggested basis: A person owns property to the extent that he derives his life from it sustainably. Those who are defenseless (e.g., your example of children etc.) depend on others and the charity of others until they can exercise their right. This system (with parents and children) has worked fairly well for quite a few years.

Another white indian story, kinda funny.

This goes back some years and it was some long gone liberty chat but somebody did the "this is smudge he's an indian" thing and of course that always triggers the "well i'm actually mostly white" thing and that goes through it's whole back and forth which I'm almost getting tired of doing for sheer repitition....

But there's this young kid and his avatar pic shows this blonde haired, blue eyed, clear skin little movie star of a guy and he's like hey I think I just remembered I'm like 1/16th Cheyenne so I do the whole "we don't want you to think of yourself as part anything, you are just indian. Our blood traces matrilineally so you are Cheyenne. Among other things" and the kid was like THAT'S GREAT! AWESOME! So I encourage him to look into his culture and kinda let that grow back into his life.

And I wish him a good night and put a blessing on him and I log off and I'm like gee, wow that was neat. Power of the internet. And I move onto other things and basically forget about it until the next night....

I log in...

And this kid figuratively, not literally, but figuratively he'd looked back into the closets and attics of his mind and he found a war bonnet and some face paint and a tomahawk and suddenly he was THE WARRIORS REBORN! And he was out there attacking and war whooping and spraying blood in ever direction YOUR ANCESTORS KILLED MY PEOPLE AND ROBBED OUT LAND YOU FILTHY WASI BASTARDS! just pure RAGE and it was WAVE AFTER WAVE OF SCATHING INVECTIVE.

People were like smudge pot, what the hell did you do to this kid? and I was like I dunno what happened here but SOMETHING sure did. I just sat there and watched it. It was like a prarie fire meets tornado. Quite spectacular to behold. And man this kid was hitting all the right notes, truly like his ancestors were speaking through him. I just let it ride for a while and after a few days did some anger management counseling with him.

Hey, it's really not all that uncommon. I call it getting smacked in the face by tradition. Seen it happen a lots of times. All the sudden people just get SMACKED IN THE FACE and a lot of these things have been repressed for generations but all the sudden IT'S THERE, IT'S YOUR LIFE AND IT'S REAL and all the sudden, like you suddenly INSTANTLY IDENTIFY whith a whole load of stuff you never realized before and it's like getting taken upside down and shaken.

Quite literally you discover that you are in fact somebody different from the person you thought you knew all your life. Your life had this HUGE CLOSET that you had very nearly forgot was there.

So it can be kinda upredictable, how people react but it often manifests as grief or anger. People in that stage are particularly vulnerable and intrinsically unstable to it's best to kinda treat them gently. Grief and anger is good, it's an externalization and we want people to express it and talk about it. It's those who get really quiet and stay that way, those are the ones that need attention. That often means they are having trouble reconciling it.

But there you go and Native America just regained a lost property. It's kind of another way we're growing. And we can feel it, it just makes the ancestors GLOW in the Next Place and it's rebuilding our power into AMERICA and all people. It will make us strong. It will unite us with our ancestors, it causes unity among our people in the Next Place and this power may be what is lacking.

If nothing else I'll always chuckle to myself. How a Smudge Pot raised up a blond haired, blue eyed Cheyenne warrior.

You encounter the strangest stuff on the Red Road.

Be brave, be brave, the Myan pilot needs no aeroplane.

Crap I did the rambling thing again.

You'd think I'd have learned by now not to just spew things out off the top of my head and hit save. I could cut this thing in half and probably make the point better.

SMUDGE YOU AREN'T GETTING PAID BY THE WORD!

Be brave, be brave, the Myan pilot needs no aeroplane.

actually I thought it flowed well

and because of that it wasn't long at all.
land ownership is not natural law....it is government!

Maybe we just have an overpopulation problem and can't get out of each others way. Or maybe we just have a power problem and those with power want to keep it that way so they "own" the land and keep us enslaved. Perhaps both. And if you don't make enough to pay you get shot in the street.

It happens to the best of us..

especially with the things we have on our minds. That's exactly why I quit 'contributing', if that's what you'd call it. :)

Struggling with the subject matter

I'm wrestling with it in my mind still.

How can we be said to be born with inalienable rights on this planet and not be accorded a place to BE?

That poor homeless guy in New Mexico got shot because he had no place to BE. Legally he had no place to BE in.

You come into this world as an American and EVERYPLACE YOU COULD POSSIBLY BE IS OWNED BY SOMEBODY ELSE. So first and foremost we must CONTRACT with somebody in order to BE. And a contract is an exchange of value so we are exchanging VALUE from our lives and into somebody else's as a FUNDAMENTAL STRUCTURE OF LIFE.

And this is COMPULSORY IF YOU WANT TO LIVE.

In other words, God creates life but to enjoy it YOU HAVE TO PAY THE MAN.

Now tell me what law that is: law of God or man? And do me something else. Tell me where this law is codified?

Be brave, be brave, the Myan pilot needs no aeroplane.

It's a cruel competition

Somebody at some point decided to draw a line between acquiring stuff with muscle and acquiring stuff with craftiness, the former wrong and the latter right. Probably this happened when brains defeated muscle in power, and praised itself and condemned its defeated opponent. I am not sure I see much objectivity or wisdom in this, it seems pretty arbitrary and self serving. However, there has to be some rules, and as long as this arrangement seems to work for most people (at least those with the power), muscle will serve brains in order to protect property acquired by means of brains. When brains see their advantage in organizing discontented muscle (20th century sociialism), you will get the occasional bloodbath. Maybe brains will just replace living muscle with machine muscle when the planet is too crowded for muscle to have a place or pull a living. Cruel world, but there's got to be some rules and there is limited space.

The topic of whether a human being has objective value becomes pretty academic when overpopulation looms. When the economic value of a person is zero or nearly so, or even negative, what will everyone else have to say about the "objective" value of a human life? Does supply and demand not also apply to people?

Are human lives value subjectively or objectively?

The idea that human labor can never become zero or negative value is just a dogma. It is perfectly imaginable that a marginal human unit costs more to maintain than its marginal economic utility.

No Contest

If we had competition that would be one thing, but we don't. We have a fixed/rigged game where those who create/change/delete the Rules have absolute superiority over those they subjugate.

Having so many Rule Changes, Additions, and Redaction creates a contest of who can interpret and change the Rules more effectively than the other. Most are left out of the Game.

Not sure

what you're talking about

Scary Malthusian stuff...

...in there. Even from a purely utilitarian, naturalist viewpoint, though, the radical abundance new APM technology will bring this century and beyond will yield almost unlimited space and material abundance for human life to grow and expand -- if the pessimists don't bring on a self-flagellating dystopia first in order to cull the herd of negative-value meat puppets. Or maybe they would cull the herd anyway, so they can selfishly head for the stars and jettison the rest of us.

While I am skeptical

of this new technology you refer to ever coming to be, that doesn't really resolve the problem.

Even if it were productive beyond the wildest dreams of its proponents, you'd still eventually run out of productivity increases. Malthus was just early, not wrong.

Not to mention the massive danger of 100 billion people being dependent on some technological gimmick that let them live off Earth's crust. Fragility increases with such leverage.

Finally, regardless of these practical questions, the philosophical question remains whether human life would continue to have value in the event that the marginal human being had zero or negative net (beyond subsistence) economic value. On naturalism, it's hard to see there being any objective value of a human unit.

Are you outing yourself as a Malthusian?

I knew it!

“The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants.” — Albert Camus

Malthus was early, not wrong

Hans Hoppe on how the industrial revolution (caused by rising IQ level) avoided the Malthusian trap.

http://themisescircle.org/features/from-the-malthusian-trap-...

The Malthusian trap, then, is a fully real economic situation. It was just avoided by increased production efficiency. But since that isn't an unlimited process, you end up eventually with a Malthusian trap or else a managed population and stasis. Malthus never argued otherwise, and his economics were fully sound. Since people will probably never manage their population, by their nature, Malthus is only a matter of time in the long run. The only way to avoid it is for humanity to be destroyed by some other disaster before it occurs.

ha, I knew you were a closet leftie

Malthus's assertion that population growth geometrically while means of subsistence grow arithmetically is plain wrong and not supported by evidence. Production efficiency has been outpacing population growth for a long time. Also, all first world countries have severely curtailed population growth, with many having a negative growth (e.g., Japan, Russia). As more third world countries raise their standards of living, population growth will continue to slow. Furthermore, the Earth can easily feed 70 billion.

Here is Rothbard on the follies of Malthus:

http://mises.org/daily/5501

“The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants.” — Albert Camus

Me and Hans Hoppe

Whatever the growth rates, increased production efficiency is not unlimited. And population growth overall is positive, not negative. Negative pop. growth societies are yielding to higher population demographic societies and population segments. What will curtail it in the long run is falling living standards, wage arbitrage, and more expensive commodity prices. Malthus never denied that managing population to prevent growth would obviously avoid population catching up with or outstripping productivity. I'm defending the general concept, not every prediction or statement of Malthus. Like most people I've never read Malthus in full. It's just sound economics to realize that eventually population will catch up with output unless it is managed. Or, the third alternative, other factors reduce population before it catches up.

I am talking about the foreseeable future

Like the next couple of thousand years. By then, I figure, people will be terra-forming Mars and growing food there. I am not concerned about some mathematical inevitability.

I mean, the Sun is gonna burn out eventually and, barring FTL travel, the human race will go out with it. Is this something I should worry about? That would be silly.

“The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants.” — Albert Camus

That's very bold of you

To consider the next three thousand years "foreseeable," and probably erroneous. The future by definition isn't foreseeable. However, since productivity gains are limited and population potentially unlimited, then it follows logically that population will be controlled voluntarily or by absence of economic means for everyone to survive. Just adding people into the equation doesn't guarantee that productivity can increase so that they retain the ability to make a subsistence income. It is fully possible for labor value to drop to zero for a whole host of reasons.

Whether you want to worry about the thermal life cycle of the sun, or anything beyond your own life, for that matter, is up to you.