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Any articulate, intelligent people?

I am looking for some help formulating the perfect response to the below comment! I need a concise, articulate, somewhat respectful, and devastating reply! Any help or ideas are much appreciated!

R------- N------- So, if you are living with government paved roads and infrastructure; If you are living with government subsidy of any kind; if your children were educated when you didn't pay for it; if government wasn't subsidizing big agriculture, oil companies and Wal-Mart, how would your life be? I am sick of this anti-government BS. Its almost as if you would prefer to live with no government at all and we all just do whatever the hell we want. I would like you to try to live without any government at all in your life and then tell me how that works out for you.



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Even though this is a few months old...

I would say:

I am not against government. I am against government going beyond the restrictions imposed upon them at their creation as established by the people who created such government.

Furthermore, I am for self-governance. The more we govern ourselves to respect the person, property and liberty of others, the less we need government.

Government is pretty good if it is restricted like our Constitution restricts the federal government; but when we the People do not get involved in the enforcement of the restrictions, and we enjoy the perks of the promises of politicians, we enable the growth of government to the point that it begins to violate our rights. It soon begins to take care to protect itself more than the people.

We then become the enablers of our own rapists and pillagers.

Is that what you want?

Freedom is the ability to do what you want to do.
Liberty is the ability to do what you ought to do.
"Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." 2 Corinthians 3:17

need more info

What is your relationship with this person? Is this person capable of having a rational discussion? How much time do you have to discuss the issues with this person?

“The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants.” — Albert Camus

My response?

I would if I could, unfortunately if I try that guns will be pointed at me and Ill be forced into a cage.

Ron Paul - Intellectual hero

I am not against just government,

but I am anti-tyranny! Can you honestly say that the current government is : just, impartial, adhering to moral principles shared by almost everyone, sincere, not hypocritical, and forthright in its dealings? I thought not! C.S. Lewis picked the right symbol;

"Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern."

http://www.downsizedcfoundation.org/blog/should-we-stop-call...

https://www.zeroaggressionproject.org/heuristic/pro-governme...

"Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern." ~~C.S. Lewis
Love won! Deliverance from Tyranny is on the way! Col. 2:13-15

Hoka Hey!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crazy_Horse

"I, __________, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_enlistment

There is no duration defined in the Oath

Imagine what things would or could be like without govt

Consider some of the things in the last 20 - 30 years that HAVE REALLY changed, and that are basically unregulated. Technology, the internet, and software, have just transformed to be useful. And look at your phone. Loot at the sites you visit. And look at the software and apps that you can run.

Look at how a simple LACK OF REGULATION such as in tech and web now, and with the industrial rev around 1900 led to easy gains.

And the govt had nothing to do with how well those things progressed.

----

So to those dipshi_s that think "the roads, the utilities, the electric, the crops, the economy, the market, the schools, the internet, the infrastructure..." were all "provided by the government?"

I IMAGINE many things would be much more efficient, very different, more practical, more sensible, and easily improving when the government GETS OUT of the way.

----

So my understanding and opinion on the subject of "government as a benefit to society or the individual" is ANTITHETICAL to most statists.

-

-

The cheese stands alone. The proof is in the pudding.

I am a libertarian why do I have to live without government?

Go yell at an anarchist. There are plenty of those on the left and the right. They are the ones that want to live without government. While subsidizing agriculture and oil companies is too left-wing for me, I will agree with you that a government that focuses on defense, courts, roads, and schools is not too bad a thing.

TwelveOhOne's picture

Defense and courts, perhaps

But the last two are not functions of a Constitutional government. I'm somewhat surprised that you call yourself a libertarian.

I love you. I'm sorry. Please forgive me. Thank you.
http://fija.org - Fully Informed Jury Association
http://jsjinc.net - Jin Shin Jyutsu (energy healing)

member LP since mid-1990s. Maybe earlier I forget.

I would go either way on pre-college education-- c.f. Jefferson on the necessity of basic education to remain a republic; or Roads easy to imagine cases of national defense or public interest (to from police stations/fire stations/army bases/etc).

This is the material point:

I realise this is not a direct response to your question. However I believe the discussion you are having is something of a diversion from the real issue. Your correspondent is in favour of the present status quo so perhaps he/she does not adequately appreciate how the world works. If he/she does know and still prefers to live in such a world that is gradually eliminating personal liberty then so be it.

Quote from the OP: "if government wasn't subsidizing big agriculture, oil companies and Wal-Mart, how would your life be? "

This is the REAL problem. This is Fascism. This is the fusion of Big Banks, Big Corporations and the Omnipresent Regulatory State. This is what we have almost everywhere in the world today and it is growing.

Here is a comment I posted on another OP discussing oligarchy which is what we have in both the UK where I live and in the US:

"There is a well worn saying attributed to Mayer Amschel Rothschild: "Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes the laws." This was actually disingenuous because the entire purpose of acquiring the monopoly on the issuance of a naton's currency is to gain control of the legislative function and make all the laws. This then leads to the final fusion of State, Banking and Corporate power, with the money power in control, that we see everywhere in the world today. It is called Fascism.

This has always been the case, especially since the invention of private banking in the Assyrian Empire around the seventh century B.C. The bankers discovered that the safest and most profitable activity for them was to lend to the rulers, who sought to expand their territories through conquest, and this eventually gave the money lenders control of the government, albeit invisibly, which suited their purposes.

This incestuous relationship is the quintessence of corruption and it has applied throughout history in every civilisation. Lord Acton, the British historian and moralist said: ""Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men." He said this in 1887, at a time in British history when the British Empire, during the reign of Queen Victoria, was at its zenith of power and was considered, at least by its people, to be the most moral, civilised and decent society on Earth. Such is the power of self deception through propaganda and education. There are many, many such examples in the world today, not least of course the United States of America, probably the most self deceived nation on the planet. No number of laws or regulations will change this since it arises from the very nature of men.

I watched the Aaron Russo documentary "America: From Freedom to Fascism" last week having watched it nine years ago. It is the film that woke me up finally to the real nature of the world system. This time it was even more powerful because I have learned much more since then and saw many things in the movie that I had missed on the first occasion. It is well worth watching for anyone who has not seen it or who has not viewed it for some time."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kE8RtL3azDg&feature=youtu.be

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

TwelveOhOne's picture

I would say something like 99% of most human actions

have no government involvement.

Eating, talking, driving (I've been pulled over perhaps a dozen times, which is once every several years, so still "close to 99%"), working (for the most part, for most people), sleeping, etc.

Most everything everyone does is not done because of, due to the demands of, or in support of government.

(Then again, I could work half as many hours and earn the same amount, if I wasn't taxed to support killing foreigners. Or, I suppose, just "taxed to pay back the Rword Fed"; I've read that taxes just go to pay the interest on that debt.)

I love you. I'm sorry. Please forgive me. Thank you.
http://fija.org - Fully Informed Jury Association
http://jsjinc.net - Jin Shin Jyutsu (energy healing)

the perfect response

The perfect response is a link to this page!

Tin Pan Miner

I am neither, but as a fool, this would be my response...

"Plenty of private roads exist, how did they get built? Acts of god? Governments don't build roads, contractors and construction workers do. Just as poor people fight wars, not governments.

How did Native Americans get around without a central government? I would say a whole lot easier than after it.

If government education is so great, why do senators and presidents send their kids to private schools?

Subsidies... is that why people start companies? Are you really saying there would be no farms, oil companies, or Walmart without government? Do you seriously believe oil companies and Walmart need subsidies? Why?

I always struggled to find something governments do well, besides start wars. Turns out, maybe they can do something else- teach people to blindly serve it. Enjoy."

Use this one

.

Maybe add...

It's amazing how many people say out of one side of their mouth, "Land of the free!!!" then out the other side, how terrible it would be if "we all just do whatever the hell we want"

A possible portion of your response

Is it really a revelation to this person that if there is a grocery store in one place and a group of hungry citizens somewhere else that someone between the two parties would figure out how to lay down some pavement? The truth is that the daily actions of most people are done without government. You provide a good or a service to other people so that you can save your money to purchase what you want and need in your life. You do this peacefully not because the government exists, but because it is the most effective way to go about your business. The fact that you use infrastructure that had been built by government is not a vote of your approval. The fact of the matter is that most of the services provided by government that you might have used came in vastly over their original budgets. And all of those services would have been done for far less money in an extremely more effective manner if a private business would have provided them.

Agree with them

"I would like you to try to live without any government at all in your life and then tell me how that works out for you."

I would like that as well, can you let me do that?
What stops you from allowing me to do that?

Under the system I propose you could let me live with as little government contact I prefer, and you could have as much government contact as you prefer. This is exactly why I am advocating the things I advocate, it allows us both to have our preference.

this is exactly right.

also explain that if what the government does is soooooo great for you, then you wouldn't have to force people to do it, people would choose that option because it is best for them.

and the other thing I would point out is the government doesn't fund anything. It has no money, what it gives to one person it takes from another (or typically it gives to a small group of pple what it takes from a large group of pple). So when one invisions what it would be like with no government you also have to consider how the governments stolen resources would be spent.

So - you're living on your master's land, and in housing

he provides, and he's given you a job, and now you want to complain about picking cotton?

Oh, the ingratitude.

This is the winner

+1

Here is what you should say.

"We both agree bad people exist. The difference between you and me is that you think we should take those bad people and give them the power to print all the money they want, sell future generations into debt, go to war as they please, spy on everyone, secretly get involved with every conflict and government on the planet, educate our children, decide what business' make it or fail, and regulate every aspect of our personal lives. Who's got the crazy ideas?

It is what they misunderstand about liberty

People assume that if you don't like the government, you must not want any. 2 dimensional thinking: Go & Stop. This is not actually the case, just a convenient category that liberty oriented people seem to get labeled with by an ignorant media led culture. There is of course always a need for certain governmental functionality and it comes in most handy when justice is being evaded by greed driven criminals, sociopaths and the like.

The biggest issues with the government that individualists have is the fact that nearly every single function of our current government seems to be linked to some kind of favored benefit for a government lobby connected corporation or some group who happen to be easy to exploit politically. Therefore the quarreling about roads and traffic flow is irrelevant and even they have their hoards of benefactors. For instance: because of the purposely inferior materials usually specified for paving, roads break down just quick enough to continuously provide repetitive work and labor positions for union contractors along with various favored non-union companies that provide equipment, multitudes of petroleum based products, and other materials. A win/win and back scratch for everyone involved.

Government should be the last stop for human ethics but unfortunately it has become a buyer market that awards wealth and power to those who perpetuate the established game. Thus, we get puppet representatives who pose as left or right to varying degrees along with a connected media that insures our continued bickering over non-essential issues that never make any difference. Meanwhile the true players continue their game at the expense of all the folks who don't know better than to argue over degrees of government necessity.

There is no need to get angry at these folks. They don't yet understand the true motives and operations of our system of government nor do they want to acknowledge that they have been fooled by it. In fact they won't even see anything until they are able to put themselves into the shoes of those who think differently.

Something tells me, this guy likes his world....

I meet this people all the time. They are comfortable with the way things are, in their world. So, explain like I do.... 'Sorry, I did not mean to interrupt your great day. Call me when your having a bad day and perhaps I can help ya then.'

I am forced to accept these

I am forced to accept these things because government monopolizes which services I am able to receive, often under duress of prosecution.

Southern Agrarian

Simply...

Limited Government.

Big fat hairy difference between choosing a Limited Government which falls between No Government and a Nanny-State. The balance has been eroded and is near extinction.

Consider the Executive Orders bypassing Congress...checks and balances my foot!

Sorry...articulation aside...

[PS. he/she can have his/her government schools - we are paying to have our children indoctrinated by doctrine akin to Communism - the original intent of public schooling...no thanks.]

The law cannot make a wicked person virtuous…God’s grace alone can accomplish such a thing.
Ron Paul - The Revolution

Setting a good example is a far better way to spread ideals than through force of arms. Ron Paul

Limited as in Golden Mean

Just enough Gov't to make it reasonably possible to predict the outcome of your (and others) behaviors, and not so much Gov't that you can reasonably predict the outcome of your (and others) behaviors.

Zero Gov't = Chaos while Too Much Gov't = Chaos

There are not 100,000 Laws of Nature for a reason. It is too many. Once you create too many laws, you find that they begin to overlap, contradict, and alter each other in unpredictable ways. This is a well known problem when designing Application Governance, Risk, and Compliance Rules. Not enough rules leave a system without order and predictability, too many creates disorder and unpredictability.

As in ANY system, you need 'Just Enough' rules to lead to reoccurring and predictable events/behaviors. That not only means a few or limited rules, but the correct rules that compliment each other as well.

Ever notice anarchy break out at an intersection...

..when the electricity goes out and there isn't a policeman to be seen?

Maybe a dozen times in my life I've witnessed power outages and seen traffic signals go dead. EVERY TIME I'd see random motorists pull up, slow down or stop, and only proceed when it was safe to do so. Even when it got crowded, and scores of cars were backed up at the corner of Central & Main, people would still behave decently, and take turns, again EVERY TIME rotating clockwise, because it is conventional to yield to the fellow on the right.

The fact is, most people are decent, kind, and even generous, face to face. It's when you get them into large anonymous groups, like a lynch mob or voters, that they become larcenous, venal, and cowardly.

dynamite anthrax supreme court white house tea party jihad
======================================
West of 89
a novel of another america
https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/161155#longdescr

i probably wouldn't waste my time unless it were

someone close. The brainswashing sounds deep. I always have to laugh to myself when people assume that no government at all = we all just do whatever the hell they want. Like the existence of government is the only reason people act morally. Its total non-sense and quite ironic since non-voluntary government is the opposite of moral.

I'd rather have a bottle in front o' me than a frontal lobotomy
www.tattoosbypaul.com
www.bijoustudio-atx.com

This'll do, I think.

Yes, government employees do all kinds of stuff, but is any of it high-quality or efficient? What successful gov't program should we all model our own affairs after?

What is it that makes government employees superior to ordinary folks? Is it the lack of competition? The element of force? The waste? The cavernous heirarchy? The energy and benevolence of unaccountable bureaucrats? Is self-serving greed unique to the free market? Can a free market be corrupt without government?

Author of Shades of Thomas Paine, a common sense blog with a Libertarian slant.

http://shadesofthomaspaine.blogexec.com

Also author of Stick it to the Man!

http://www.amazon.com/Stick-Man-Richard-Moyer/dp/1484036417