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"Pro-Choice" sure looks a lot like murder to me.

Sorry folks. This one really got to me. I'm having a hard time with how cavalier these ladies are in describing the process of physically tearing apart and ending a human life.

Wanted to hear your thoughts.


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Boiling down.

This issue has been set up as a debate between pro-Life and pro-choice. But more correctly, the issue is a debate between pro-rights and no-rights.

2 to 3 weeks

...after conception, we went to the imaging center and I heard my son's heart beat loud and clear. After that moment, I realized how wrong I'd been and have been asking for God's forgiveness ever since. My son is the greatest thing that has ever come into my life.

What this really illustrates is the satanic nature of our society today, especially on the Left.

Satanic nature of society

You are exactly right Clint. The Bible tells us in Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

It's not a Left or Right issue though. It's a spiritual/sin issue and all humans fall into this category. Many on the so called Right are against abortion, but have no problem going to war and killing people.
Same as the death penalty. Only God Almighty has the right to take a life. He gave His Son's life for all who will receive it.

Need God?

"And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand." Matthew 12:25

I love how people equate murderers to babies

How is it that for some people to agree to protect the life of an innocent baby they are trying to equate it to capital punishment.

Killing innocence is "satanic", killing multi/mass murderers is not satanic. It may be a REALLY BAD idea, but it is the ultimate eye-for-an-eye view of justice.

I'm only for the death penalty when politicians start releasing murderers to the street, otherwise I'd rather not give a govt that i don't trust any more power than I need to.

If you are all in for life, God bless you, but don't make to stupid comparison of killing innocence to punishing evil.

I'm not equating murderers to babies

Isn't this thread about taking a human life? There is no difference if it's innocent or not. Maybe you don't know that there have been many innocent people on death row and even if they are not innocent it's not man's place to take his life.

The truth is if you have had an abortion you have taken a life and are a murderer even if our government does not acknowledge you as a murderer. It is murder in God's eyes.I don't share this to condemn anyone who has had an abortion because we are all sinners.

"And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand." Matthew 12:25

Brain waves can be detected

Brain waves can be detected in a fetus at about 6 weeks. I say if brain waves can be detected, the fetus should be considered alive. When brain activity ceases for adults we are considered dead, right? That, to me, should be the standard.

abortion should not be made illegal

but this late term abortion crap should be illegal for doctors
with a severe punishment
if you watched the video it was basically stated that if she was going into labor and delivering the baby they said still come to the clinic and they would take care of it.
it sounds like she could possibly deliver the baby naturally at the clinic and they would still kill him/her with the digoxin which has to be illegal

why shouldn't an unborn baby at 1 week have the same right to

life as an unborn 9 month baby? After all it is just timing that separates the two. An unborn baby has a heart beat at 2 to 3 weeks after conception.

If a man ever witnesses the birth of their own child, and hold that baby minutes of birth they would think differently when life begins.

Surviving the killing fields of Minnesota

Todays brainwashing: GMO's are safe

if most pro choice people were honest

they would admit that they think the world is over crowded so it doesnt matter whether the abortion kills a baby or not there are too many babies so the murder is good. Most of them think that if half the world died tomorrow it would be a good thing.

You could also say

If most pro liberty people were honest, they would admit that the world is overcrowded and should have no problem with the government culling the population via poisoning of our water supply (flouride), poisoning of our food supply (GMO's, pesticides), sending our young people off to get killed in unnecessary wars, etc.

but the world is not over crowded

Heck half of africa could grow food but the elites are too busy funding dictators to allow that to happen. Lets say we run out of space on land to grow food, well then someone will figure out how to deep sea farm, and we will have another forty to fifty percent of the planet to grow food. Heck at this point there are major parts of the world that we just dont have the man power to get the resources.

I agree.

I was just pointing out some of the problems with that line of thinking.

Michael Nystrom's picture

You guys are funny - you actually think arguing about this stuff


If it does, it is because you make it matter. There are all kinds of causes in this world.

Far more fetuses are lost each year to miscarriage than to abortion.

And why not the outrage there?

Why not pour the outrage into something useful - trying to save babies from being miscarried. There are more of them. And there is no resistance.

The focus is wrong.

Just think about it logically: The focus us wrong.

Which begs the question - what is the true focus?

Helping the unborn, or loudly displaying righteous indignation?

He's the man.


i think this is the first time i've ever seen one of your posts buried with 10 down votes. i'm jealous! and for a perfectly sane post, which is sad.

Abortion is wrong and we do allow way too many miscarraiges

through ignorance of the food we eat, i don't call it food more like rat poison. If one would only do a little research on what neonicotinoid pesticides are and how it affects the brain of the unbon and childen under 6.

But most just accept GMO's as safe because the lying EPA says it is, but if one looks behind the curtain they would find big AG owns the EPA. The people think GMO's were appoved after a lot of scientific studies were done, but this is the biggest lie ever.

Once the bees are gone people will be forced to look at these pesticides, because they will only have bread and cereals to eat. I believe a famine is coming to America, because the bees are dying at a very high rate, about 40%/year.

Beekeepers are working very hard to replace their bees each year but are fighting a losing battle. Bees will just die out the next year unless they replace all combs every 3 to 5 years, I call it my Monsatan tax!

One day this is going to slap every American right in their face, then they will have to address GMO pollution, by then it will be too late. Americans are doomed through their own ignorance!

It's the stupidest thing ever to allow chemical companies to control the food supply!

Surviving the killing fields of Minnesota

Todays brainwashing: GMO's are safe

I respectfully disagree.

It does not matter if we can all agree that persons have the inherent right to life, liberty and property if we "agree to disagree" on what it means to be a person.

For me, that is what this discussion is all about. If there is no consensus on that definition, then the NAP falls apart because anyone can claim their actions are not infringing upon the rights of an individual that they consider to be a person worthy of rights. If we must agree to disagree on this issue, then logically, I must accept your right to choose how to define what it means to be a person and I can do nothing to protest your treatment of someone you deem not worthy of personage.

As such, I think discussing the definition of personage is of central importance to our movement.

I respectfully disagree too

You agree with the other thirteen year old above that we just need more "manpower to get resources." Why do those yet unborn not count as people when you agress against them by destroying resources? Do you realize that native Americans lived for thousands of years without stealing anything from future generations? When you say we do not have overpopulation, do you mean that we are living without destryong the earth for future generations? Of course not. They don't count as persons worthy of rights to you. And some idiot seems to have told you that because God told Adam to be fruitful and multiply and subdue the earth, that's all that matters and it means you can destroy everything in sight with impunity. I respectfully disagree.

I'm no fan of abortion, but this dominionism is really misguided. This is not the garden of Eden, and we have a responsibility to give those after us as many resources as we had as well as more liberty.

You are assuming that I am a dominionist.

I am not. I believe that people who use that portion of scripture to justify their destruction of the environment are totally misinterpreting what it is saying.

I honestly fail to see how my choice to defend the rights of unborn children means that I somehow think the environment is ours to deplete and destroy?

But that is what you agreed to above.

Look at your post "I agree" above. That is "dominionist" reasoning. I am not assuming anything. I'm simply pointing out that to which you agree.

That post suggests greatly increasing the current population based on the idea that "we just need more people (and implied more technology---that is, more destructive technology like the current technology which even makes the current population viable) to get the resources."

That says "The environment is ours to deplete and destroy." At least that is what it says to me. And you agree with it.

As for your last comment:

> I honestly fail to see how my choice to defend
> the rights of unborn children means...

You honestly fail to see simply because you fail to be honest. (I said nothing about your choice to defend the rights of the unborn. I did say something about you agreeing to violate those rights along with the dominionists.)

I see your point but...

that doesn't mean you should turn a blind eye to the deliberate ending of life. I'm pretty sure we are already fighting to avoid miscarriages, not so much to avoid abortion.

The difference is a moral/ethical one, we have become desensitized to this form of murder.

I think we are backwards, we need to outlaw abortion and at the same time get rid of the death penalty (I don't trust the government to administer the death penalty).

Wow, talk about missing the point here Michael!

The issue is how human beings treat each other, ergo ethics/morality, not obfuscation of circumstances in order to protect a booming industry. Your argument is comparable to:

"Far more people die of natural causes than are murdered, so why not do something useful and try to stop people from dying of natural causes. As a bonus, there won't be any resistance from murderers who don't want to be punished for what they've done".

Furthermore, you talk to any pro-life person that's not tied into some "faith-healing" cult (ergo everybody posting here) and they will tell you upfront that they would support more research in how to prevent miscarriages. They are being logical, you are not. If you are such a fan of this en vogue "Non-aggression Principle" that all the kids are digging nowadays, you might want to apply it a bit more consistency.

Just saying. :-)

“My attitude toward progress has passed from antagonism to boredom. I have long ceased to argue with people who prefer Thursday to Wednesday because it is Thursday.” - G.K. Chesterton

I was 26

Making more money that I knew what to do with. I was scared, with no family to speak of.

That decision will haunt me until the day I die and beyond. That single decision made in fear changed my life permanently. The pain I have harbored is only second to death itself.

I know what gun oil tastes like. Ill never be able to forgive myself. Fear is not a worthy motivator of action. In my life, Ive learned that action defines character. It is why I will never vote for a pro-choice candidate. Ever.

I hope I am forgiven by the time I reach our creator. The spiritual side of me has been in hell since.

Abortion is murder. Its sold to us as a choice.

'Peace is a powerful message.' Ron Paul

Dear P.Nicholson

My heart is heavy for you. Please know with the Lord's help you will one day be able to forgive yourself. He tells us that if we are in Christ Jesus there is no condemnation http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+8&version...

Please read here to know the forgiveness God offers all of us http://www.needgod.com/

Here are a few resources that I hope will be of help.

How you can find hope, help and healing after abortion?

Resources for Help After Abortion

Advice And Counsel For Women Who Have Had An Abortion

Praying for you,


"And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand." Matthew 12:25

I appreciate

Your links.

Trouble is, Im a guy. I was a guy with a lot of money that didn't think of the consequences of my actions. My quest for booty outshined my understanding of life.

I thought life was about how much I could earn, or employ, or have in my pocket indebted through favor or coin.

God has a way of humbling perceived greatness and did he ever humble me.

Just because a soul was ripped from a womb doesnt mean a life wasn't ripped from my heart. I was a fool indeed. Naive. Young. Scared.

As I walked my girlfriend into the clinic a woman pleaded with me to stop, screaming 'You cant take it back!!'. It was already to late and even if I had changed my mind the chemicals administered couldn't change the course of history.

All that money I was making. All that fame I had. Everything I thought mattered came to a resounding halt. I held a beautiful, scared woman for 5 days because I feared she would slit her wrists if I left her side after it was over.

Im not perfect. None of us are. To her credit, she made me pay for it and take her.. and bring her home.

This is the lesson that I personally learned from abortion. It is the most wicked decision I have ever been faced with. I can honestly say I have not had a good nights sleep in the 14 yrs following.

Life is precious and should not be taken for granted. Do I believe there should be an outlaw of abortion? No. But just like using opiates.. I believe that people should fully understand the consequences of their decisions and be free to make their own choices.

Choices have consequences. I hope you can sleep with yours.

'Peace is a powerful message.' Ron Paul

Wow, I know the lack of

Wow, I know the lack of sleep, and fear you are talking about. I've been there, not on the abortion issue but something else. I thought I was heading straight to Hell. I just had to keep hitting my knees before God, even though I thought I could not be forgiven. Until finally, one night, I just opened my heart to Jesus again. This time I felt his love wash over me, and the forgiving and healing power of the Holy Spirit. I pray you feel it soon.

I have no doubt you ARE forgiven, he forgave you over 2,000 years ago. And it was written from the dawn of time. I'm not saying this from a feelgoody perspective, It's just the truth I have learned in my life. I might be wrong about politics and everything else in life. But I KNOW our Savior is in heaven, and he loves us. Satan's nastiest lie, is that we are not forgiven. It is a lie, we are forgiven. I hope you get that wonderful peace soon. God bless you and yours, man.

Just wanted to say...

AMEN brother!

"And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand." Matthew 12:25

Men and Abortion Network

Thank you for sharing your heart and for responding to my post.

This link has help for men: http://www.silentnomoreawareness.org/search/index.aspx

It takes you to this site: Men and Abortion Network

Praying for you,

"And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand." Matthew 12:25

Michael Nystrom's picture

Fear is not a worthy motivator of action.

I will take this to heart, Nicholson.

I can only imagine the horror you feel. I can feel it too.

As sucky as the world is, it is still pretty cool to be alive.

I'm thankful and grateful for every day.

He's the man.
Michael Nystrom's picture

There is only One life

Whatever it is, Life: That mysterious spark that animates and brings to life plants, insects, mice, cats, dogs, deer, whales, cows, bulls, sheep, and of course, people. It is a mysterious force.

Anything that is alive is not dead. Plants and animals are not rocks. There is a fundamental difference. If you respect life, then you respect ALL life.

If one has respect for 'life' then one should have respect for all life. Not just the unborn child, but also the Taliban solider. Also the endangered whale. Also the 19 year old American soldier, sent off to Vietnam. Also the cow sent off to slaughter. Also, even the leaves of grass.

Whatever that force is - it is the same thing. It is a miracle - a miracle in all cases. In the case of the amoeba as much as the fetus.

- - -

I didn't watch the video. All I sense from the tone of the OP is b l a m e :

You, not me. Your fault, not mine.

Don't you know that we're all connected? Don't you know that this is a symptom of a larger problem?

Why hack at the symptom, instead of striking the root?

- - -

You asked for thoughts? Those are mine.

We live in a fucked up world. Don't blame the women. Forgive them, for they know not what they do.

Love them. Knock it off with the hate.

That's what I think, Sethster. What do you think about that?

He's the man.

Good thoughts Michael.

I agree, we should value all life. Human life most of all, but that does not mean that we should treat the animal kingdom or plant kingdom with wonton violence and disdain. My main purpose in posting is rather to figure out how we as a libertarian community can logically come to terms on valuing life. I got emotional due to the video's content and that unfortunately set the wrong tone.

My basic question is this. If we as a community hold the right to life to be inalienable, but one individual does not hold it as such and begins taking other individuals lives, do we as a community sit back and allow that to happen, or do we do something about it?