This is all I hear:
Here you have it, right on time...
Immigration for me, but not for thee?
“With laws shall our land be built up, but with lawlessness laid waste.”
please make it a thread of its own :-)
"What if the American people learn the truth" - Ron Paul
When you're territory is invaded by a massive group of people who don't share your views on liberty, whether you support liberty or not, you won't have any, especially if your government involves electing it's officials. Furthermore, if you support property rights and the so-called non-aggression principle, an invading group using force of numbers to rob you of your property should be repelled in a similar fashion to a hoard of marauders.
“My attitude toward progress has passed from antagonism to boredom. I have long ceased to argue with people who prefer Thursday to Wednesday because it is Thursday.” - G.K. Chesterton
Property Rights means that an owner of property has the right to tell someone to get of his land (or tell someone they are welcome on his land).
I don't see how "property rights" gives you the right to tell someone they are not welcome on someone else's property.
I also don't see how immigrants are "robbing you of your property".
Do you feel that earlier immigrants (likely your ancestors) should have also been repelled in a similar fashion to a hoard of marauders?
Could you please explain those points?
Is because when the SHIF the Mexicans will want to get back to Mexico.
Mexico will close the border to Americans and If we try and move down there they will shoot first and ask questions later.
I like to view this issue from a freedom based perspective.
First, no more government / taxpayer provided freebies. People can run charities (with zero government/taxpayer funding) to continue the freebies if they choose to do so.
After the freebie financial drain issue is sorted out, instead of worrying about the spooky illegals we can just start considering them to be welcomed visitors to our country. They can hang here as long as they want while spending their money here & supporting our economy. But no freebies and of course they will need to obey our laws.
I would even be fine with letting our visitors work here if they want (while paying taxes like everyone else, unless we somehow are able to abolish the IRS & income tax as well). My reason for this is not so much to appease the visitors (I refer to them as visitors here instead of illegals because by this point they would no longer be here illegally) but rather to appease our own citizens. People in The Land of The Free ought to have the freedom to spend their money hiring whoever they choose to hire and not just the people that the government says they can hire.
The "they took our jobs" argument is a moot point. The people saying this are implying some sort of ownership over the jobs. The only people who really can say "our jobs" are the people who are providing the jobs since it's their jobs to give (and their free choice of who to give/award them to).
turk yer jerbs.
And abortion turk yer werkers.
Dear Amerika, spell after me :
A... n... t... a... g... o... n... i... s... m... s...
Gooooood, abused Amerika.
Nah, don't think.
Just keep hurting. Keep arguing. Keep hating, too, if you wish - note it's our pick*S*, though.
But, by all means! don't forget to pay your fair share... Or else...
Either that, or just vote us in to get more free stuff. We've got you covered.
Everything's gonna be affordable... for all.
'Coz, hey, it's for your own good.
Then, you can shut up, when we'll tell you to.
Yours faithfully plundering,
Your soon-to-be Amerikan Democracy.
"Cyril" pronounced "see real". I code stuff.
"To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous." -- Confucius
that you are doing exactly what the establishment wants you to do, which is argue over this obviously planned and manufactured situation, so you get distracted and let down your guard, so they can continue to work on destroying our liberties and planning the next war and/or false flag. Divide and conquer is alive and well. Slavery and thermo-nuclear war will screw everybody, no matter on which side of the imaginary lines you live. Now take a deep breath and enjoy this:
"To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." Voltaire
+1 Yup, indeed. I think I do.
Glad you speak out against the same gross trick, too.
I've been making the same point in various ways on here, for 2+ years now.
but this is what I read; Study: All Job Growth Since 2000 Went to Immigrants
The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself.
Open borders are an affront to liberty. Read H.H. Hoppe. When gov’ts don’t protect the borders, it equals forced-integration and an abridgment of the property rights and the right of association that should be afforded to the citizens of one country and not automatically given to another.
Let me get this straight -- NOT being able to freely associate with Mexican immigrants is "freedom of association?"
And NOT being able to hire, rent lodging to, or give an education to Mexican immigrants is "defense of property rights?"
Orwell appears to be the greatest prophet of our age.
He is, rather, more properly classified as an anarcho-statist.
No one person owns all the private property in the country, and if I wish to let a Mexican immigrant cross into this country on a road I own, it is YOU who are the socialist who would use violence to prevent me to use my property as I see fit. If I wish to hire a Mexican immigrant, it is YOU who are the socialist who would use violence to prevent me from associating with and hiring whom I choose.
Get over your xenophobia. It is not Us vs. Them. It is all of us against the State.
Does he not advocate the abolition of all governments?
The problem with your analysis is that you don't solely own the roads that a Mexican immigrant will be crossing. In a private property society, there will, by definition, not be any public property. But for now, there is. Do you really believe that if all property was privately owned, we would have the same, or nearly the same,levels of migration as we have now in our statist system. You cannot divorce border enforcement from the fact that there are huge swaths of public property.
If you wished to hired a Mexican immigrant, I would have no objection provided you got that person to your place of employment on your own dime.
There is no right to "freedom of movement". Just like there is no right to "freedom of speech".
Are you saying that all opponents of "open borders" are xenophobic? Are you saying that one cannot be a libertarian and be xenophobic?
No, there are some libertarians, Ron Paul included, who oppose open borders for what they perceive to be fiscal reasons, who bear no ill will toward immigrants. These people pass the "good will" test, in my eyes, because they acknowledge that open borders would be a good idea if we had a truly free market system. There are many people on this site, however, who claim to support the free market, but insist that even if we lived in a nearly free market society we would have to have socialist, statist (read: violent) immigration restrictions because Latino immigrants are obviously "undesirable."
"Are you saying that one cannot be a libertarian and be xenophobic?"
While it is theoretically possible to be a libertarian and xenophobic at the same time, it is very difficult to be a true libertarian and xenophobic in the long run. This is because the good will toward others in your heart which is required to become a libertarian (a belief in liberty is the ultimate expression of the "Golden Rule") tends to make you more accepting of people of other races, cultures, religions, and languages. Honestly, when you minimize the hatred in your heart, the fear naturally vanishes too.
I fully agree.
Closed borders are an affront to liberty. Hoppe is completely wrong on this. Hoppe confuses property lines with national borders.
Just imagine 4 property owners, who designate some public area around four properties. They agree between themselves they don't want open traffic on the public areas, but controlled traffic. They designate a person to control access to the public area, and that person, instead of following the rules of the property owners, invites 15 people in via the public area who the property owners agreed not to invite.
There's really only two possibilities:
1) Public property is invalid.
In this case, there can't be open roads, you just have to leap frog from property owner to property owner, perhaps by helicopter?
2) Property owners can designate and control access to public property.
In this case, immigration controls in and out of the property-ownership perimeter accord with the will of the property owners.
Hoppe confuses property lines with national boundaries? Criminy. We are talking about national borders here, not a neighborhood street.
four property owners were four thousand, and ceded some property around the perimeter as a public roadway, agreeing to control access, and to call themselves Nation, their nationality being Nationalese, and speaking the nationalese tongue, then it would be okay?
If the firm they hired to control access to this area instead opened access to everyone, that would be wrong?
got enough poverty and crack heads in this country, i wouldn't want to be the one responsible for allowing all this immigration in and leading many into The American road of broken dreams.
"Dey tuk er jerbs!"
"In reality, the Constitution itself is incapable of achieving what we would like in limiting government power, no matter how well written."
~ Ron Paul, End the Fed
Personally I like it when others set a low bar for their work ethic, it makes me look damn good in comparison. More crappy workers around means job security when it is layoff time. So I have to pick up some slack and get paid the same as some of them, but it's job security, and I am being compensated by the hour to do what someone wants me to do for them.
For a weird reason, I only have audio right now. All I hear is: "They took our jobs!" over and over again.
Are they talking about robots? And computers?
Because that is what is taking everyone's job, ultimately.
Step 1: Offshore
Step 2: Automate
Step 3: Repeat
it's from a South Park episode where immigrants from the future come back to the present because of scarce jobs in the future. The redneck people in South Park resent these immigrants for "taking their jobs."
It's actually a very funny episode, where they point out that these immigrants save their earnings so that they will be worth millions of dollars in the future, but will really only be worth hundreds of dollars because of inflation.
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