31 votes

STOP signs aren't GREEN

Stop signs waste fuel and are not "green"... I've made it my personal mission to educate people about the uselessness and waste that is the "Stop Sign" in western culture. I've never done the math but if you add up all the times people stop at a stop sign in a year across this country I know that the fuel that is wasted by performing a full stop and then re-accelerate would be way over millions of gallons of wasted fuel.

I've spent a good bit of time in China over the last 20 years and it wasn't until perhaps my 6th trip over there that I noticed that there were NO stop signs!! Well I had seen the great amount of traffic flowing all across China and it was obvious from my first encounter with moving around any road in China that vehicles manage to get around fine without hardly ever stopping (unless there's a red light or traffic jam). It really hit me hard when I realized that the Stop Sign is completely absent in China. For several years I started looking every time we traveled trying to find the elusive stop sign. Oh, eventually I saw a couple. They were usually at a check point or entrance to a private gated community where the guard could check your parking pass, but I couldn't find any conventional "intersection" stop sign.

I started wondering "how is it that there is not death and mayhem at every intersection (and there are billions of intersections)?" The Chinese are pretty crazy drivers and I actually like the style of driving there because it is very "anarchistic". Yet somehow these billions of drivers manage to go home to their families every night!! Something was wrong with what I'd been taught all these years about driving.

I started to think about stopping at every intersection. I'd long felt stupid stopping for an intersection at 2am when there's no one around for miles. And it really annoys me when I come to an intersection about the same time as another car and we do the guessing game of who is going to go first. In China when a driver approaches an intersection they slow down and look for traffic. They spot where they can "barge" in and make their move. Cars seldom actually stop unless there's traffic in the way. This is a much better use of fuel than making millions of useless stops every day (not only wasting fuel but also additional wear on the brakes).

Then I remembered when I walked to school in the 60's and there were only a few stop signs. Most intersections would have a "Yield" sign for one direction and no sign for the other direction. This worked quite well. When a driver saw the yield sign they knew that the other road was the busier road and had the right of way over you. If there were cars entering the intersection you would "yield" to them and proceed when clear. It worked really GREAT!! How many intersections can you show me today that have a "Yield" sign at?? I can't think of any.

For at least the last 8 years now I've treated all STOP signs with disdain. I now NEVER do a full stop at intersections unless there's either a cop nearby to aggress against me for doing what is safe to do and for which there is NO victim or there's traffic that requires me to make a full stop.

In that time I've gotten only one ticket for failure to stop. It cost me $240. I would imagine that I've saved at least that much in fuel cost over the 8 years so I think it's about a wash. I would estimate that I've saved many hours on my traveling though and I cannot put a $$ value on that.

It's clear to me that the TRUE reason for the proliferation of stop signs over my lifetime is REVENUE!!

Sorry to be so long winded but I want as many people as will join me to start acting like you have a brain. STOP stopping at stop signs unless there's a good reason to stop. Slow down and look, if it's clear and no cop aggressors are nearby, save yourself some time and fuel and move on down the road!

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ChristianAnarchist's picture

Another dodge... How far can

Another dodge... How far can they change the rules on you that's TOO FAR? Nobody's talking about stop signs here... (maybe it's time for me to slap you??)

Beware the cult of "government"...

I'm pretty sure

stop signs is the very thing we're discussing.

ChristianAnarchist's picture

I'm pretty sure that we are

I'm pretty sure that we are talking about "implied consent"...

Beware the cult of "government"...

...in the context of the post

which is about public traffic laws.

If you want to shift the discussion to how implied consent would work with more controversial laws than local traffic laws, we can do so and figure out the right and wrong of it.

You're already had to concede implied consent is not the invalid ghost you claimed at first, so now the next step is to figure out when implied consent is valid and when not.

ChristianAnarchist's picture

Let's outline discussion

Let's outline discussion above (please pay attention). We started with my discussion on stop signs. Then you started in on associaton rules to which I replied associatons are something you make agreement to enter into. You talked about rules in public places to which I stated there is no such thing as "Implied Consent". You started in with car washes and barber shops to which I responded that one can walk out of a barbershop if you don't like the service. You accused me of evasion to which I agreed to a limited extent and pointed out how you are also evading my points. You then started an example using "speed signs" to which I pointed out you are evading the issue of "implied consent" to which you went back to your barber example. I pointed out your are still evading the issue of "rules changes" and implied consent (again there's that theme). I stated you are dodging and you stated we are talking about stop signs!!! (We hadn't hardly mentioned stop signs but in passing during the entire exchange). I reminded you we are talking about "implied consent" and you claimed we are talking about stop signs (which although is the title of this thread was hardly the directon of our discussion). Then you made the unsupported claim that I'd "already" conceded that implied consent is not an invalid ghost (which is absurd because that is EXACTY my claim all along).

Beware the cult of "government"...


I argued that implied consent is valid, and applies in the traffic laws of neighborhoods. Nothing else was claimed.

ChristianAnarchist's picture

Oh, I see... So I am required

Oh, I see... So I am required to address every nuance of thought in all of your posts or I lose, right?? You claim you have won on implied consent? What are we now, in first grade??

Beware the cult of "government"...

I don't know what you mean

If implied consent is valid, its also valid for traffic signs. If you want to discuss whether implied consent exists in more murky contexts, I am all ears.

ChristianAnarchist's picture

Are you tired of being a

Are you tired of being a clanging cymbal??

Beware the cult of "government"...

Feeling pretty


I too have been to China

And your use of the term "anarchist driving" made me laugh. THAT
is an understatement! I had no vehicle when in China and took
cabs for many trips... the cabbie did very unorthodox things, like
drive in opposing lanes of traffic and such.

"Traffic" in China is much more Chaotic... with bicycles and
rickshaw-like travelers mixed right in with the autos, busses and

I visited Harbin, CN, a little burg of 8 million in NE China. One
street over from my accomodation was a 6 lane traffic artery. I
did see streetlights, but no stop signs.

I think you are on to something, here. I have often daydreamed
about a system where no streetlights were needed. Then when the
power is out... no problem. Also in post apocalyptic zombie
times... who will be powering street lights? ;)

Certainly we have enough intelligence to engineer a way to
eliminate the stop sign (and street lights for that matter)?

ChristianAnarchist's picture

If you have a pick up and a

If you have a pick up and a chain it's pretty easy to get rid of the stop signs... The street lights are a bit more trouble. Anyway, if all these things were removed there would be a time during which everyone would have to re-learn how to drive. After that things would roll along just fine.

Actually I have a Chinese driver's license and I've driven from Beijing to Shanghai...


Beware the cult of "government"...

hear hear!

I am very against the way that government manages roadways. They build and sprawl everything so that you are forced to drive miles just to get to a grocery store because zoning laws and business laws don't let people have local stores. They set up these crony contracts with their construction buddies and think they are improving the economy by paying someone to hold a sign and for others to stand around. The irony of all these pretty roads is that soon the collapse of the dollar will make it so none of us can even afford to drive on them.

"Naked Streets"

Better yet

Imagine a world without idiots. Unhappy place.

The best

The best strategy for traffic flow and fuel economy is to mark intersections only as such: "Here Be Cross-Traffic." No Stop. No Yield. Let the motorists, pedestrians, and cyclists work it out.


Ĵīɣȩ Ɖåđşŏń

"Fully half the quotations found on the internet are either mis-attributed, or outright fabrications." - Abraham Lincoln

In many places,

like North Park, they have just spent years putting 4-way stops at nearly every intersection. It's utterly ridiculous. I have noticed every single time that there is a massive power outage the traffic on University Avenue travels much, much more smoothly when all the traffic lights are out. I hate traffic lights and stops signs both, and consider them utterly unnecessary. Have you guys ever seen this: http://www.incrediblethings.com/cars-auto/meet-the-traffic-i...?

ChristianAnarchist's picture

That's very cool. There are

That's very cool. There are many intersections like this in China although they are putting lights in at most of them now. I call the traffic in China (and in that clip) "organic". The traffic just flows, like fish in the sea you just go around any obstacle. The instinct of self preservation keeps everyone from crashing into each other and traffic just keeps on movin...

Beware the cult of "government"...

And here's another one

Take a look at the lights at the intersections that have the red light cameras. 90% or more will not have the green arrow to go right. So many cars just do the California stop when turning right since they can see the oncoming cars are stopped and get a ticket for that. It's obviously about revenue and not safety.

A "Stop" sign ain't "Green!"

Stop sign ain't...

Disclaimer: Mark Twain (1835-1910-To be continued) is unlicensed. His river pilot's license went delinquent in 1862. Caution advised. Daily Paul

ChristianAnarchist's picture

Ya... I noticed that...

Ya... I noticed that...

Beware the cult of "government"...