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Lucifer was the good guy, the dissident who stood up for what's right

I'm not a religious man. I was raised in in a Christian family and went to church every week for the first several years of my life. I was baptized a Presbyterian and later attended a Methodist church up until the age of 12-ish.

I've always been one to ask questions and I'd often ask the nice elderly couple who taught sunday school at the first church about things that seemed contradictory... like the phrase "and god said let US create man in OUR own image" or the story of Jonah in the whale... it wasn't that I doubted God or Jesus, I just wanted things to match. even at a young age I wanted continuity of message, I wanted proper context and syntax.

As I've grown older I've spent much more time with the Bible. I've read it cover to cover a few times. I've also read the complete Torah, the Tao Te Ching, The Epic of Gilgamesh, various vedas, The book of Mormon and any other religious book I could find. I've studied Native American religion (including central/south American cultures), Celtic, Nordic, Greek, Zoroastrian and other traditions... and I have come the conclusion that the Bible was edited/altered in an intentional effort to deceive the masses.

The serpent is the knowledge-bringer in most traditions. A good guy associated with "the light" and "wisdom". Only in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition is the light-bearer a bad guy.

I've always viewed the different religions as all being an attempt to both record history and to explain that which more primitive man was unable to understand... so I think there's a lot of historical fact mixed in with the various fables and tales of prophets, gods and angels.

I've finally constructed a reality which makes things jive in my head... since this board is full of people who think differently and all have a different interpretation of history and reality I thought I'd share the below theory and see your thoughts. It's not my intention to anger or alienate anyone and I don't want to insult anyone's beliefs. I just want to share this:

I think Lucifer led a revolt against God because he determined humans were capable of higher thought and shouldn't be treated as livestock. He transplanted populations to distant regions in an effort to protect them. He taught them about astronomy and farming and language and math. During the rebellion, Lucifer was winning... I think this battle raged for hundreds if not thousands of years. During the rebellion I believe Lucifer assumed the name of God. (look up Enki & Enlil to understand this better) I believe Jesus was actually one of Lucifer's guys. He was against the system, threw the money-changers out of the temple and didn't recognize authority other than God... New god, good god... not the vengeful and violent god of the old testament but the peaceful loving god of the new testament (a different entity).

Old god (Enlil) eventually wins the war and reassumes the title of God. Recognizing the value of propaganda there are certain changes made to the historical record among the conquered people (the central mass of western humanity from North Africa through western Asia and central Europe).

I don't have a clear line on the modern angles... the whole anti-Christ or Ma Di concept... I can only theorize that it's an effort to steer people away from seeking knowledge. Only Judeo-Christian-Islamic traditions discourage followers from seeking answers from sources outside their religious texts.

I'm pretty confident in asserting that the Jews, Christians and Muslims are loyal to the same "old god" (Enlil) and the rest of the world seems to follow the "new god" (Enki/Lucifer).

and I think the "NWO/Illuminati" are NOT luciferians, but follow the spiteful old testament god, Enlil, and for propaganda purposes frame Enki as their evil master.

Call me crazy... I'm used to it... but it felt good to type all that out and share.

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Where are YOU in all of this?

This house you have described does not seem to be built on very sound foundations. How do these beliefs affect your personal actions and life direction? Can you depend on them to be there when you go through difficult times in your life? What you believe sounds like a mish-mash of Babylonian myths and legends that did not serve their creators very well since they have all perished. Why not build your house on the Rock and receive Life?

He (Jesus) said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “You are blessed, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father in heaven! And I tell you that you are Peter (petros -a little stone) and on this Rock (Petra, a large Rock, Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God) I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. (Matthew 16:15-18)

“Everyone who comes to me and listens to my words and puts them into practice – I will show you what he is like: He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep, and laid the foundation on the Rock. When a flood came, the river burst against that house but could not shake it, because it had been well built. But the person who hears and does not put my words into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. When the river burst against that house, it collapsed immediately, and was utterly destroyed!” (Luke 6:47-49)

For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers and sisters, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea, and all were baptised into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they were all drinking from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.(1 Corinthians 10:1-4)

Leave Babylon! Flee from the Babylonians! Announce it with a shout of joy! Make this known! Proclaim it throughout the earth! Say, ‘The Lord protects his servant Jacob. They do not thirst as he leads them through dry regions; He makes water flow out of a Rock for them; He splits open a Rock and water flows out.’ (Isaiah 48:20-21)

"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

I have no axe to grind in this ...

... theistic debate. I am an atheist and I see no point in believing in mythology of ancient peoples.

I do, however, find it interesting that some of what you say jives with "illuminati" types, at least from what I've read. My understanding is they see Lucifer as the highest god, and the Judeo-Christian-Islamic god as one of the lesser gods.

They believe that through rituals and acts they can become one with the light (Lucifer, or highest god).

It's screwy, but not moreso than any other cult.

Lucifer, the knowledge bringer? G-d is the Creator...

You make the mistake of thinking Lucifer is the knowledge bringer.
He is the Deceiver.

G-d put the serpent in the garden on purpose.
Lucifer, the serpent, is on the payroll.
He is a created being like mankind.

G-d did NOT withhold knowledge from Man...
He told Adam and Eve not to eat from the 'Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil' before they ate from the 'Tree of Life'.
The idea is that they were to seek life, experience, and wisdom first, before gaining the knowledge (power) that would allow them to understand the world as G-d does, with the knowledge of good & evil.

The serpent told Adam & Eve they would not surely die, but would become like G-d. That was a half-truth, and a half-lie. They did not die... right away... They did become like G-d in the knowledge of Good & Evil, but they had not His wisdom, nor His power.
They were then 'cast out of the garden'.
Being cast out of the garden represents mankind no longer being blissfully ignorant, but having that knowledge of good and evil.
The garden story also represents what separates mankind from the animal kingdom, in that we have this knowledge of good and evil, which brings out the questions of morality.
Mankind had to fail the test, or none of human history would have happened as it did. The serpent was put in the garden on purpose, as a test. It was a set-up. We were meant to fail the test. Satan is on the payroll. Nothing is equal to or greater than G-d.

Are you a POT or a PET - Person Embracing Tyranny?

God didn't put the serpent in the garden.

He gave his creatures free will and doesn't take it back. The devil took on the form of a serpent with the powers he was given as an angel. He isn't on anyone's payroll. That is probably why he chose to reject God: "Non Servium" - I will not serve!

Mankind did not have to fail. That is like saying a dad needs to jump off a bridge so that his kids can know what it's like to be orphans. There is no set script that mankind is following. We have been endowed with free will and history is just a record of results of that free will.

I totally agree that nothing is equal to or greater than God.

Are you playing "devil's advocate"?

He gave man free will, and I would guess He gave the serpent free will as well.
But He clearly put the serpent in the garden, just as He put Adam in the garden.
Of course he is on the payroll. Lucifer is subject to G-d's laws as much as everyone else, even more so.
His job is the tempter, the deceiver. There can be no good without evil, and Man can never CHOOSE to follow G-d if he isn't tempted with another option. Life, like the garden, is a test.

But that's not even the point... Well it is, but you have to take into account...

The story is written in hindsight, to explain in one creation story, the questions that early man had about the origins of the world and mankind. Many moral and philosophical questions about G-d and mankind's existence are answered.

Mankind fails in the story and that is meant to explain why there is sin and where it comes from, and also why we die. Devil = Death. It comes from the initial choice in the garden to disobey G-d's moral laws, and give in to the temptations of the serpent/satan.

(BTW, G-d told man to "be fruitful and multiply", and also that "Behold, every herb yielding seed of it's kind, to you it shall be for food".
So some of the things some religious conservatives might tell you are sins or "temptations" are actually G-d given gifts of Life.)

But there is real sin, like the conscious choice to harm oneself, or to harm another, and that is what the problem is. Satan knew Adam & Eve would be harmed if they ate from the Tree of Knowledge first. Eve knew it was wrong to convince Adam. Adam knew it was wrong to disobey G-d, who loved and created him. But they did anyway.

Again, garden story was meant to explain many physical world questions, and also philosophical questions about the origins of the world and mankind. If mankind ate of the tree of life first, and did not fail the test, there would be world peace already.

Are you a POT or a PET - Person Embracing Tyranny?

The test was the tree itself.

The devil came because he hates God and His creatures. Yes, God allowed him to be there, but He did not deliberately put him there to ensure man's fall.

Evil is not greater than good, nor is it equal to good. God is all powerful. But He decided to give Men and angels free will. This is how Lucifer and the devils became what they are. They chose it. God respected their choice. They continue to will against God and do harm.

How do you think my assertion helps the devil?

God can not do evil. He can not employ others to do evil. But He can allow His creatures to act on their free will.



"Jesus answered them: 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.'" (John 8:34-36)

God told Adam ...

... that he would be willing to create Woman for him, to keep him company, and that she would be wonderful, obedient, she would serve his needs, be kind and nurturing, be his to take as he pleases, and create no mischief in his life. But, Adam would have to pay a price for this.

Adam said, "That sounds great, but what is the price?"

God said, "An arm and a leg."

Adam thought about this for a moment, and then he said, "What can I get for a rib?"


That was pretty good. :)

Don't forget that Adam's first wife was created along side Adam. Eve was the 2nd wife... Lilith was made from mud/clay just as Adam was... at the same time.

At their inceptions, the #Liberty, #OccupyWallStreet and #TeaParty movements all had the same basic goal... What happened?

For a mind blowing experience

For a mind blowing experience in comparative mythology take a look into Joseph Campbell. There are videos out there including a series with Bill Moyers.

"The United States can pay any debt it has because we can always print money to do that." — Alan Greenspan

Not new at all, look up gnosticism

God never changes. The God of the old testament is the same as in the new testament. When Jesus was baptised we see the triune of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. In the beginning there too was this triune of the Father , Son, and Holy Spirit which created the Earth. Jesus is the Word and He was with God at creation breathing life and the spirit into the first man created in God's image.

Our God thankfully is merciful as we all deserve death for our rebellion against the very laws of the universe. Instead He shows that he is slow to anger and is faithful to redeem us. We don't have to work for his love or his redemption we just need to believe, something so easy and small. We then are filled with His spirit and become his conduit to bring God's perfect love and design back into affect. We are empowered to change others lives and grow closer to Him by our loving obedience.

Lucifer or the Devil brought death to man. His biggest con is convincing us that he doesn't exist, that you are God, and in some cases that he is worthy of your worship. He had no part of your creation. His hope is to destroy you. You are created in the Devine image of God! His rebellion has been put down. Christ has won the war. His spirit can be with you again. Turn to him and recognize your full potential. He is love!

Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. - Young Americans for Liberty - Stop Deploying Traumatized Troops

In The World You have Followers Of Good And Evil

If your enlightened soul you know the difference.

I like the fact that you have questions about Lucifer and such, but don't look for answers from the so called experts.

Look inside yourself for answers..

Remember, Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is within you and he also said call no man father, for you have one father in heaven. He will teach you everything.

Learn by discovery my friend, not from the spoken word.

Real answers come from revelation from within..

We don't look into ourselves, but toward He who Created us, and

Cares for us, remember this verse. Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?"



What knowledge would we have except for what we see and hear and experience? What world would you find in your mind that wouldn't make you go completely insane if cut off from all other experience?

I challenge that statement. There is no knowledge to be found from within.

"The way of a fool seems right to him, but a wise man listens to advice."

Ron Paul - Intellectual hero

Not the knowledge....

.....of the mind, but of the heart. Search your heart for answers, it's all right there, one with the creator.

You're correct, the mind is only built from experience, right from birth. Knowing that, it cannot always be trusted. :)

Whom Are The So-Called Experts, Who Made Them That...

I know right from wrong, always have. I don't need to hear from an expert preacher like Lindsey Graham give me advice on what is best for America.

We all inherently know right from wrong, but we doubt ourselves when we hear the spoken word. It's easier to listen to the outward word then it is to listen to the spirit within us or the unspoken word.

In the Bible Adam knew right from wrong, but his ego wanted to be like God knowing good and evil and so he listened to the spoken word and denied what God had told him intuitively...

How many times have we all denied what we knew and listened to others and messed everything up?

You must be able to discern the truth from the lie if you enlightened. If your not enlightened, you'll continue to fall for anything someone like Obama says ...Right?


Nothing New

Do you even realize you are doing nothing other than espousing an old Christian heresy known well over 1,800 years ago. Learn history, especially Church history before coming up with your own " new ideas".

Are you calling Notas a heretic?

You know what they did to heretics in history, don't you?
Bloody nailed 'em to stakes and such...

The implication that Jesus was a heritic

Couldn't be further from the truth. Jesus fulfilled over 300 prophesies written in the Tora about himself hundreds of years before.

Not only that but Jesus proved beyond a shadow of a doubt His ultimate authority by being the only man in history to raise Himself from the dead!

Just because the Jewish leaders at the time treated him as such didn't make it true.

It may be that you are attempting to Troll, but I don't write this comment for your sake, I write it for the sake of others who might read this so they can have knowledge and clarification.

Ron Paul - Intellectual hero

knowledge and clarification

"Jewish leaders at the time treated him as such"

Thank you for supporting my point. Truly. :)

Uh, no.

The Papacy during the Medieval Period and various monarchs of the same time period were pretty big fans of what you are talking about, but the early church did not really have the same attitude regarding heresy, more often than not people who stubbornly clung to erroneous teachings were banished and had a good life living outside of Western Christendom. In fact, the Eastern Church was a bit more lenient than most, although they didn't hesitate in calling something by its proper name.

Furthermore, do you even know the full history behind most of these heresies? Particularly in the case of the Arians, they were quite violent and just as authoritarian in their quest to force their peculiar beliefs on Orthodox Christendom than Rome was during the Medieval period. Most of North Africa and Rome itself was conquered and pillaged by Arian hordes (particularly Visigoths, all of them Arian converts, not pagans). Likewise, Islam is technically a heresy according to Christian tradition, do you think the Muslim hordes that overran a good chunk of Asia and lopped off heads by the thousands were just innocent little hippies with different opinions?

Try reading some unabridged material before shooting your mouth off please.

“My attitude toward progress has passed from antagonism to boredom. I have long ceased to argue with people who prefer Thursday to Wednesday because it is Thursday.” - G.K. Chesterton

Yes, I read plenty.

"The Papacy during the Medieval Period and various monarchs of the same time period were pretty big fans of what you are talking about"

Thanks for the support.

Not sure about other cultures

But in Slavic tradition (before forceful bloody christianization at the end of 10th century) serpent was never a symbol of light or wisdom, let alone both. The most common reference of note that serpent could get was a wyrm - snake-like dragon worshipped in - drum rolls - China. Serpent was the symbol of the enemy or a former enemy, not worth too much trust.

Only as high as i reach can i grow
Only as far as i seek can i go
Only as deep as i look can i see
Only as much as i dream can i be

summer song :)

you can hear the screen door slammin'
hey, let's run a foot race to the creek
where you can see clear down to the bottom
and deeper...
depending on where you stand, how you look
and what you want to see

Christianity and my conscience lead me to the same conclusion.

Treat others as you would like to be treated.Treat others with goodwill,kindness,compassion,forgiveness and mercy.Admit and repent of your mistakes and the wrong things you have done ,said, and thought.Swallow your pride and let your conscience be your guide to truth and to what is right or wrong.That is what being a Christian and following Christ means to me.To me,it has nothing to do with religious denominations.With all due respect,if you consider yourself a follower of Christ(Christian)I cannot see any good in putting yourself in religious categories such as catholic,protestant,mormon,Jehovah's witness etc.
If you are atheist and reading this,please hear me out.While I can see many wrongs in myself,others,organized religions and political power structures,I honestly cannot see any wrong in Christ and making the effort to follow His example which rings true to my conscience.Even if you don't believe in God,does it not make sense to live by these principles anyway?(See above)Can we at least agree to unite behind and promote those principles,including liberty and non-aggression,whether we believe in God or not?We know our conscience is real,whether we believe in God or not.Conscience being defined as our inner sense of right and wrong,good and evil,better or worse,fair or unfair and just or unjust.
Here is what I think would be the best way to unite behind and promote said principles:
If we had a large enough amount of people in America and the world united behind our shared principles, and demanded strict adherence to said principles over politics or parties,then the politicians would truly have to represent us or find themselves out of a job and irrelevant.

We can make progress every single day if we focus on winning hearts and minds. Here is a suggestion on how to do it: We get one or two great short ads/videos that promote our shared values of truth, freedom, and peace. Just picture a short video explaining why we should bring our troops home, have sound money, cut taxes and spending, balance the budget, end the drug war and give power to the individual while promoting the golden rule,the non-aggression principle and voluntary humanitarian help to our fellow man.

Then we have a money bomb only to DIRECTLY purchase airtime for said ad/video. We vote with our dollars on which video is best.Then we have a "time bomb"(lol) where we all donate our time and focus our efforts spreading the video on facebook, twitter, youtube etc. Keeping it front page on the DP would surely help. Imagine if for a period of time, let's say a month, the front page of Daily Paul was dedicated to an effort to spread a video that promoted all the principles we share. The video could also include a link or mention of DP and/or a dedicated website sending new people there to join in the effort. Then we fine tune our efforts to make sure we are winning people over. And as long as we see it is working, we NEVER stop.
While commercials for politicians become obsolete,the principles of truth,freedom,peace,non-aggression and goodwill will NOT become obsolete.I do not think a reasonable person would argue against the statement that the more people we have united behind these principles,the better.Therefore,does this idea not make sense?

With the "time bomb" method, we could make our message go viral on the internet, nationwide and worldwide, without asking people for money. With the right videos and a united effort by us, I am convinced this would work. In my opinion, this is how we win.

Anyone got a better idea? I'm all ears.

(here is the link to a former post suggesting this idea)

This is......

....really well thought out. I would love to be a part of this and start chatting specifics with you. I have video and audio capabilities, and think we can do this extremely well.

Maybe start an account on Mindomo to start getting organized?

Its an interesting story

But its is just that without any actual roots in truth. Unless you can test the theory there is no valid way to claim any truth to it.

You base your theory on the religion of the pagan Sumerians which has no connection to Judaism, Christianity, or Muslim faiths. In the Sumarian story, Enil and Enki are equal but separate Gods. However the God of the Christian and Jewish faith is the creator of all including lucifer. Lucifers rebellion against God is no more than an ant rebelling against a human foot.

Christ proved that he has ultimate authority and power over death when he was raised back up from the dead as witnessed by many different people. And its documented testimony is of the highest quality of accuracy among ancient documents known to man. If you really want to know the truth I would go back and read everything he said again, including the following: "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Nobody comes to the father except through me." If you truly believe Jesus was a good guy, and who wouldn't, go back and read again what he had to say about God.

Ron Paul - Intellectual hero

I'm just trying to understand your interpretive logic...

"Christ proved that he has ultimate authority and power over death when he was raised back up from the dead as witnessed by many different people."

Did Lazarus prove that he has ultimate authority and power over death when he was raised back up from the dead as witnessed by many different people?

This site proves

How confused and sensitive the average American is.

I am officially done with this site. Tired of reading the ramblings of a confused man that just feels the need to express themselves no matter how inaccurate they are.

Good day and Good riddance! You people can have each other!