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"Why Pornography is Bad for You"

And people think God is being mean when he makes rules regarding sexual pleasure.


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her husband here

Speaking from experience, I can say with all authority, that what you are saying about the hormonal impulses of a 12yr. old, are for the most part correct. That is WHEN you are raised without truth.
I was raised in the 80s and 90s, and was exposed to extremely hard core porn at age 10. Me and the neighborhood boys had our fort full of crud the local pervert would throw away. He must have had 10-30 different subscriptions. It was also during that time that the satellite TV network was really being made available, so we had all the video porn we wanted as well. Both of my parents worked so we had plenty of time to do as we wished. Porn and the resulting physical acts were the norm. You can say all day long that we are giving our boys a guilt trip, or complex by warning them about the traps of porn and masturbation, but you know, and I know, that we were both left to our own devices, our parents failed us. Our problems were a result of our choices + the sorry excuse for parenting that we received. You hide your own guilt by lamming into others for their stand on truth, because you have failed. Your rantings reveal your own guilty conscience.

Say what you want, for as long as you want, as loud as you want, but you are trapped. Dead in trespasses and sins. And just like anyone trapped in any sort of vice, you justify yourself to get rid of the burdensome notion that you are wrong. Without Christ you will perish in your iniquity.

Christians should not be warmongers! http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance87.html

I was raised with TRUTH(tm).

I was raised with TRUTH(tm). I had no access to porn until I was nearly an adult. That didn't mean I wasn't thinking it though, despite looming terror of impending hell. So did your boys. You can't stop it, and you'll only make it worse the more you try to fight your children's natural biological functions with mythological garbage in order to turn them into sexually repressed angels. They masturbate, frequently. We all do, save for a few pent up monsters who could explode at any moment and start eating people.

Porn is like anything else in life, if you abuse it, you will suffer the consequences of your irresponsibility. Please don't bother to push you mythological delusions on me. You're not going to scare me into believing in your cosmic tyrant, and I honestly don't care what smug satisfaction you gain in your delusion that I'll be tortured forever by your "loving" deity if I don't bow down and apologize for how he built me. I understand there are plenty of mentally handicapped people who require a mnemonic tourniquet to deal with reality, I am not one of them.

Well, now you've gone and done it. You started talking

about my boys.

When you were 17, could you climb an 80 ft tree and cut it down, lowering the limbs on a rope because it was so close to a house?
Were you a champion fiddle, guitar, and mandolin player? Had you saved your own money to buy a nice vehicle? Did you think about giving to others who were less fortunate than yourself?

Probably not. You were too busy masturbating and looking at porn to realize there was more to life.

Christians should not be warmongers! http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance87.html

I was cutting down trees,

I was cutting down trees, teaching self defense, and running my own company by 18. I was also masturbating often. You don't have to be a repressed monster to enjoy economic/athletic success. I always find it funny how you Christians love to assume anyone who doesn't agree with you must be a drug/porn/hate addicted agent of the devil who never accomplished anything in their life.

I'm sure your boys are fine, I'm simply assuring you that you aren't going to Christ their natural desires away, and you have a good chance of screwing up their wiring permanently when you try.

her husband here again

Why are you so angry at someone who does not exist?
Teaching my boys self control is not a religious precept.
Again, make all the claims you wish, but you expose yourself with your own words.

Christians should not be warmongers! http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance87.html

You're full of shit. You're

You're full of shit. You're basically condoning being a mere animal and not having any control over one's emotions and urges. Nudism, casual sex, and other deviant sexual behaviors like bondage and filming sex are shameful and have been up until the past few years for a reason. Look at what people are doing sexually, and the smut mentioned on TV and movies now, and tell me society isn't falling apart. I'm not going to blame it on just sex, but other things as well, like violence.

Please come join my forum if you're not a trendy and agree with my points of view.

Good GOOD, let me FEEL your

Good GOOD, let me FEEL your hate Christian, let it flow through you, only then will your trip to the dark side be complete!

Nudism and casual sex are deviant? Ha... and you wonder why so many of you Christians sound like psychopaths to us normal folk?

her husband here again, and agian

lovingly spoken

Christians should not be warmongers! http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance87.html

So nudists and people who go

So nudists and people who go around getting laid are normal? Okay... Psychopaths go around doing things like fucking strangers with zero regard or spreading diseases. Psychopaths like making stuff like sex about domination and control. Yeah, a person who abstains is such a psychopath (rolling my eyes).

Please come join my forum if you're not a trendy and agree with my points of view.

Just would like to add

That every one of us was born nude. Such deviants! I think we're throwing the nude baby out with the bath water here.

And then we are covered up,

And then we are covered up, and every culture on earth that doesn't act like tribal animals are clothed.

Please come join my forum if you're not a trendy and agree with my points of view.

Your insinuatuon that humans

Your insinuatuon that humans living in tribal cultures are animals boggles my mind. How on earth does one come to believe such a thing. We differ from them culturally, not biologically. I am worried that I am falling for a joke or something. No further explanation needed. To each his own.

Oh, I don't know, maybe

Oh, I don't know, maybe because they're completely uncivilized, doing things like human sacrifices and committing cannibalism. Such things like culture is stored in DNA. You can't just take a newborn jungle baby into civilization and try to raise him or her. The wild needs to be bred out of them over a few generations. THEY are the ones choosing to live the way they do, and to be no better than animals. If you don't agree, I don't want to hear it. You're not going to convince me. I'm always right, so you might as well just keep it to yourself.

Please come join my forum if you're not a trendy and agree with my points of view.

I think this is what they

I think this is what they call trolling.

Trolling is when people

Trolling is when people aren't serious about what they're saying and are just saying it to get a rise out of people. I don't care how people react. IF we were face to face I would be saying the same stuff.

Please come join my forum if you're not a trendy and agree with my points of view.

Yes, nudism is normal. You

I had lots of casual sex with willing and eager ladies in my youth, I don't recall ever being careless about spreading disease as STDs suck. That's what rubbers are for. I don't thing anyone out there particularly wants to catch the clap. Young people enjoying themselves and experiencing some sexual pleasure while they search for mr/miss right are not what is killing our nation; a central bank, fascism and religious zealots trying to legislate their twisted morality are what is killing our country. A bunch of control freaks who simply cannot allow freedom.

Yes, nudism is normal. You may recall we aren't born with clothes on? Sex, so long as it is voluntary between consenting adults is normal. Only a psychotic cult of idiots could be terrified of reproductive organs and mammary glands. What is wrong with you primitives that you think a pair of tits or normal biological functions are evil, but eternal torture for victimless crimes is "love." This is why you people $&@% your children up, and come across as either insane or stupid (or both) to normal people.

Ah but that's the beauty of the NAP, so long as we can wrestle the government truncheon out of your wicked little hands, you can be free to hide in your compound covering your eyes in terror of boobies and punishing yourself for thinking evil thoughts all you want, and no one will care or try to make you peek.

Down voting serves only to remind me that the intelligent minority are surrounded by idiots; I am never surprised to learn I am outnumbered.

Well, Magwan, since you brought it up--what do you think

love is?

Christians should not be warmongers! http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance87.html

What is love!? Baby don't

What is love!? Baby don't hurt me, baby don't hurt me... no more.

The feeling we call love is most closely associated with the production of endorphins which produce the long lasted, strengthened bond of attachment between humans and other animals (er respective... one hopes). Love is a chemical addiction in the mind, and what a glorious cocktail it is!

Here's the first of a billion links you can choose to read, though you probably won't like them.

http://chemistry.about.com/od/valentinesdaychemistry/a/Love-...

So, you are a materialist?

.

Christians should not be warmongers! http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance87.html

I don't know enough about the

I don't know enough about the nature of reality to draw any conclusions that might place me firmly into any camp. The one thing I can say with 100% certainty is that I don't know anything for certain.

That said, I think its more likely that everything which exists, does fit within the laws of physics, however we as a species have no idea what all of those laws are, and are certainly mistaken about a good deal of the ones we "think" we understand. I don't really believe in supernatural crap. I just consider it things we haven't figured out yet.

But what do you expect, we are just waking up out of the dark ages mentality and becoming sentient of the universe around us. For the entirety of our species, all of our reason and intellect has been diverted toward making-up answers rather than searching for them. Its the ultimate conceit of pride to pretend to have the answers rather than admitting you simply do not know.

As a species we are just scratching the surface of knowledge. We haven't any idea what kind of crazy chemicals, energies and systems are out there among the stars. Our sciences are largely co-opted and taken over by the same dogmatic thinking that captures 90+ % of the species; just more religious nonsense. Thinking, reasoning humans are attacked ruthlessly by the dogmatists, and we teach our children that faith and believing in unprovable nonsense is preferable to reason and understanding; but worst of all, we do it out of fear and guilt.

The fact is, any human being who tells you they have the answers is either lying, or delusional.

So am I a materialist? If you mean do I believe that this existence takes place in a material universe with physical laws? I think that is highly likely, but I wouldn't be shocked to learn that reality was 180' from where I thought it was. I've had my world-view drastically altered a few times in the past with life-changing information, and (with luck) it will happen again. There is nothing better than an epiphany, and I feel pity for anyone who resists information to preserve dogma. There is no uglier waste than to throw away the greatest gift this life has given you, your ability to reason. I highly recommend leaving this religious mumbo-jumbo behind and beginning a life of searching for the truth rather than accepting what is handed to you by delusional and/or dishonest people.

As usual, Jefferson hits the nail on the head: "Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."

There's probably nothing I can say to change your mind.

You've said you've had some worldview-altering experiences, as have I. Maybe someday you'll find the Love I've found.

Christians should not be warmongers! http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance87.html

Change my mind about what?

Change my mind about what? Its easy to change my mind, it only requires evidence. I've had my mind changed about an entire range of subjects, everything from cosmology to politics. Faith is useless to me however; I consider it an insult to human reason and our species as a whole to believe anything just because you "want" to. People who believe what they want, rather than what is true or logical are responsible for irrationality. It is irrationality that leads to dangerous ideas like government. Faith is the ultimate mental weakness. You should question everything and demand evidence before making lofty claims about knowing the "truth."

Last; I have an amazing wife and 2 of the most precious baby girls on planet Earth. What possibly makes you think I haven't found love like you have? I just understand the chemical processes that allow me to experience emotions as a biological entity.

Why does understanding how a plane is able to fly make the fact that you are flying any less amazing? I never fail to be amazed by the human body and its capabilities to reason and feel. I will never understand why anyone would consider being ignorant of how something works somehow makes it better. How can the delusional belief in magic when one is ignorant be preferable to the enlightenment of reason when one is informed?

You're confusing the Bible's definition of faith,

with credulity.

There is plenty of evidence for God, if you want to see it. I once asked an atheist what God would have to do to prove Himself to exist. Do you know what he said? He said, 'Nothing. Because even if He did a miracle right before my eyes, I would then question my sanity.' So, you see why God doesn't go around giving unbelievers 'proof' of His existence. They will never believe Him, because they've made a choice to ignore and deny His existence.

If that is not you, then terrific! I will pray that God will reveal Himself to you.

Knowing how things work is definitely awesome. It makes me praise God all the more to see the intricacies of His creation!

And, the love of a spouse and children is truly wonderful!! However, it is even more wonderful to know that there is a greater purpose to this sometimes painful life, and that we can be together for eternity when it's over. It's even greater to know your creator and His love, because there are times in this life, when we have no one else. He is always there to comfort us and see us through.

Christians should not be warmongers! http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance87.html

There is no evidence for

There is no evidence for Yahweh, don't kid yourself. You give me one ounce of peer reviewed science that isn't produced and reviewed "only" by obviously bias believers or drawn from the bible and I'll give it a serious look.

You think that just because one person said he wouldn't believe direct visual evidence presented to him for inspection, that is why God chooses to be completely mysterious and hidden, requiring people arrive to him only if they be tricked into believing impossible cartoonish myths on the word of other people who have no way of knowing? That sounds pretty thin. If Yahweh wanted us to make use of the reasoning minds he'd given us, he would have provided a path to finding him through learning. If there is a Yahweh, that is how I intend to arrive there, not by "deciding" to believe in mythology since I'm scared of dying.

Here's how God can convince me. Beam himself down and introduce himself. Heck, he could even just send one of his lackeys. So long as they have wings and a gravity defying golden ring floating a few inches over their golden curls, I'll bite. I want to see just one of these "miraculous" impossible things the bible goes on about for myself. I have never seen Yahweh, I have never spoken to him. Even when I was a hardcore Christian, all I heard was my own mind thinking things and desperately hoping it was Yahweh. The closest I ever got to seeing a miracle was at church camp when a bunch of kids were worked up into a crazed froth because some weird fog rolled into our camp. They were flailing around spouting gibberish which our pastors were calling "tongues" because of the miracle of the holy fog. I myself was not infected with the tongues, though I faked it to get the horde of zombies off of me. Then I wandered around behind the cabins and found the smoke machine. The pastor found me and convinced me to keep it quiet, saying that sometimes a little "help" was needed to strengthen the faith of young minds.

Hallelujah!

If knowing how things work is so great, do you then acknowledge that love comes from a chemical cocktail in our brains? That without those chemical reactions, our biological make-up would, like many non-social animals in nature, have no capability to form long-term bonds of love? If not, than you prefer the mysticism of believing in magic to the enlightenment of reason.

Your love of a fictitious being is not greater than my love of my children, or even yours. You love your children more than you love your desperate desire to believe in your god. You're just terrified of not loving Yahweh, and that spurs you to pretend. One of the amazing things about the human mind is that, when a person wants to believe something badly enough, the mind can actually compartmentalize and override its own reason, allowing us to trick even ourselves. But if Yahweh is so powerful, its not like he doesn't know you prefer your own children to him. You aren't fooling anyone. What kind of egotistical monster would demand you love him more than your own kids!? You've never even met him outside of delusions. Further, the love of family is stronger when you understand your time with them is finite. You appreciate that which is fleeting vastly more than that which you will always have. In some ways, that we die is what gives us the greatest passion of embracing life.

As for meaning, I don't lack for meaning in my life. I'm out to save the world from the illusion of government, by spreading the message of liberty. I care about "this" word because its where my family and I live, and there is no magical kingdom in the clouds. Half the reason our world is turning into an Orwellian nightmare is because people care more about fantasy land and their cosmic king than they do the real world where our children will live. There is no god. You are wasting precious energy you could be giving to your family and your fellow man by dwelling on a medieval masochistic fantasy rather than embracing life and giving all your love to your family and friends.

If there is a god who is worthy of your worship, he'll judge you by your actions, not by what you "choose" to believe.

Is our sense of justice also merely a cocktail of chemicals?

I wrote the following post yesterday, and I guess it is really my answer to all your arguments. You are serving a god whether you know it or not.

http://www.dailypaul.com/327034/what-is-love-can-love-take-p...

Christians should not be warmongers! http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance87.html

"You give me one ounce of

"You give me one ounce of peer reviewed science that isn't produced and reviewed "only" by obviously bias believers or drawn from the bible and I'll give it a serious look."

I'm sure 'peer reviewed, scientific evidence' that capitalism was a better system than communism was hard to come by in Stalinist Russia. Get my drift?

However, there is evidence all over the world of a massive flood--fossil graveyards, petrified trees in the standing position, stratified layers, petrified clams on Mt. Everest, etc. This doesn't "prove" the Bible account, but it makes it definitely worth looking into.

Then, there are the miracles of changed lives--there for all to see.

There is written historical evidence that Jesus lived and died and rose again.

The survival of the Jews as a race is also puzzling unless one looks to scripture.

I would say that's a pretty good start at evidence. No need to answer back because, unfortunately, I've got a pretty good idea that none of this will evoke a second look from you.

But, you did misunderstand what I was saying about love. I was saying that God loves me more than my husband or children ever could. I wasn't saying my love for God was greater than my love for them, although it certainly should be. I don't serve God because I fear Him--I serve God because He loved me so much, he gave his life to ransom my soul. At first, I feared because I knew I was a sinner and deserved judgement. But, after being reconciled to God, I no longer have to live in fear.

1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Christians should not be warmongers! http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance87.html

But your first bit would

But your first bit would imply that science is "against" Christianity philosophically as Communism was with Capitalism. That isn't true. I don't "want" it to be true or false. I simply want evidence that it is true before I can be compelled to accept what it claims.

Granted I think the mindset does irreparable harm to our minds and species as a whole, but all of that would be understandable if there actually was a super-powered cosmic tyrant demanding his followers treat each other like condescending, hypocritical sh-its on pain of eternal damnation. If at some point I can be compelled to accept all that nonsense is true, then I guess I will understand why millions of people feel its okay to threaten others with eternal torture and hate people for their sexual habits and preferences.

There is a wide body of evidence for a variety of cataclysmic events in Earth's history. Everything from unusual temperature variations to cataclysmic resurfacing of our planet due to interplanetary electric discharge. Heck there is even very compelling evidence that the Earth is actually expanding in size, like a balloon being inflated. You can see the stretch marks in the pacific ocean.

While ancient people would certainly have recorded in legends, paleolithic drawings and religious texts concerning the horrible and amazing crap they watched unfold in the skies above and Earth beneath, we should be careful about how literally we interpret the myths that arose from ancient and often primitive cultures. Early cultures tended to personify events they watched, and they were probably describing earthquakes, plasma formations, electric discharge, storms and even floods; not literal representations of actual giants, lightning throwing gods, and fiery dragons in the sky.

This is probably why we see the reoccurance of the "great flood" appearing in numerous mythologies across the world going as far back as Mithra. While there is compelling evidence that ancient people witnessed a great flood of some type, in no way is this indicative that Yahweh lives in the sky and burns those who oppose him. All it proves is that ancient people, some who believed in one god or another, witnessed crazy shit happen, or heard about it later, and added it to their religious myths.

"Then, there are the miracles of changed lives--there for all to see."

Changed lives? Ive seen people change their lives for Buddhism, for love, for money and yes, from being converted to Christianity. People who have shitty lives use any excuse they can cling too to fix their messed up circumstances. When you are drowning, any old piece of floating debris probably looks pretty damn good. I know I watched my own life drastically changed for the better by getting rid of religion. My IQ probably jumped by 30 points within moments as the "filter of Jesus" was removed and I could actually start using the brain I had been prohibited to use for the first 20 years of my life.

"There is written historical evidence that Jesus lived and died and rose again."

I've seen no compelling evidence that Jesus lived outside of the bible. There are 4 known references that I've been able to find and research. All of them are either known forgeries, suspected ones, or too vague and/or disconnected from the time period to be relevant. The common use of the name "Jesus" and that Christ was a title basically make pin-pointing a "Jesus Christ" in Roman tax records almost impossible. That Jesus has 3 separate origin stories in the same bible begs the question, how do we even know which Jesus these supposed references refer too?

"The survival of the Jews as a race is also puzzling unless one looks to scripture."

It is extremely difficult to eradicate an entire race of people. Only Yahweh seems to be able to completely annihilate entire peoples in genocidal massacres, if his story book is to be believed. However I think that if the rulers of Jewish nations continue down their self-destructive path of central banking and trying to rule the world with Zionism, sooner or later, some other group of humans is going to take another stab at it, picking up where the Nazi's left off in reaching god-like levels of genocide against Jews.

You can only fuck with the world's interest rates and money supply for so long before people get pissed. Granted I like to think in our enlightened age of reason we won't be targeting Jews so much as central bankers who don't necessarily have to be Jews, even if the power behind the thrones always seem to be Zionist Jews. In either case, the fact that no one has yet achieved erasing every Jew from the face of the world does not prove the existence of winged bird-people in the sky, or horned, pitch-fork wielding overlords in fiery chasms in the earth.

"I would say that's a pretty good start at evidence."

Evidence for what? That there are earthquakes, floods and meteor showers? That people, when their lives are really shitty, often cling to external influences to fix their messed up lives? That the church is good at forging historical documents in order to commit fraud used to shovel lies down our throats? That its difficult to eradicate entire sub-races of humans from the face of Earth? If these things are what your provided evidence seeks to prove, I am swayed.

"No need to answer back because, unfortunately, I've got a pretty good idea that none of this will evoke a second look from you."

It is because I answer back that your second statement here is, once again a sad misjudgment of who you are talking too. Not only do I weight your words, I take the time to research them when it is merited. Its from debating Christians like you, in conjunction with my own curiosity and former mind-set of being one of you, that I know so much about the common myths and arguments used. I have actually lived and experienced Christianity from your perspective, something you cannot claim for my point of view. The things you list as evidence are not sufficient to satisfy an unbiased scientific mind. However the mountain of evidence leveled against your position seems, thus far, insurmountable.

Your love for your "god" should NOT be greater than your love for your children. You've never even met him. What kind of of a fear-broken mind would convince itself it loved someone it had never met above its own children? It takes a special kind of dictator/slave relationship to produce that kind of brainwashing. You see it a bit in N. Korea. It is absolutely fear that drives it.

The entire story of Jesus getting slaughtered in order to pay for the crimes you were made to commit is one of the darker and more ridiculous concepts in the bible. I would never let an innocent person (especially the world's only innocent person) get tortured and murdered in my place, and in no logical way would that excuse me of any crimes I had committed. I thought Christians liked to talk about personal responsibility. Here's a little... if your crimes are so horrible that someone needs to be tortured and executed to pay for them, step up and face your own music, don't let some innocent whipping boy suffer in your place. That's garbage... fortunately its also fiction. But that you believe it means you need to seriously evaluate your concepts of right and wrong.

"1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love."

Utter and complete bullshit. If you know what it is to love, then you know what it is to fear. I never felt fear as I have learned to feel for my daughters. I fear for them above all else because I love them above all else. And so do you. You can pretend your children will never die, and that they will go to heaven and be there for you always, but in the end, you know you just aren't sure.. .if you were, you'd celebrate whenever anyone you loved died, and you'd feel a surge of hope and joy when you noticed a mac truck about to run into your child. Oh joy! Little Jimmy gets to go to heaven and be with God! Yay!

BS. You grieve for your loved ones when they die and experience mortal fear when they are in danger BECAUSE you love them. Heaven is just the story you desperately try to tell yourself to mute the pain with false hope. I understand the compulsion, we've all been there, and sometimes I do wish I could blunt my pain of loss with delusions, but I would never trade my reason and sanity for it, and ultimately that's what you have to do. That's what all opiates do to dull pain.

I know it will be very hard to not be offended by this. I'm sure you're awesome and I love all my liberty friends in the highest regard, even if I may oppose or find some of their views to be amoral and misguided.

Just a side-note...

...I see that bit about fear vs love in a different sense:

allowing fear to be the primary motivating factor for how you act and react

vs

allowing Love to be the main driving force, in spite of such fears.

When Love is seen as the transcendent reality encompassing everything else, then those fears are put into their proper context, and will ultimately melt away into nothing, as Love is perfected, the Creation reconciled to Love.

Some of your concerns about the retributive notion of justice often attributed to God are ones I share, actually. I'd point you to one of George MacDonald's Unspoken Sermons, "Justice", for another take on this, if you're interested in alternate views. (In the public domain.)

Love and fear is a balancing

Love and fear is a balancing act every parent must walk. Do I let my girls live wild and free, or do I try to reign them in a little for their protection? If we choose to let them run free, we are terrified of the consequences they will bare. If we choose not too, we will do more harm than good.

Its the most difficult of choices we face as humans who experience love.

As for the rest of that godly love stuff, I don't believe in Yahweh or eternal life free from harm, so naturally I don't believe in love that transcends fear. Love is intense valuation of something. Loosing what we value hurts and so we fear it.

As to the retributive nature of Yahweh, there is no excuse for Hell possible. If Yahweh can see into the future, that means he allows you to be damned despite having the power to both foresee and stop your fate. That your future is set means there is no free will, so that is NOT an excuse. You go to hell because that is exactly where Yahweh created you to go. You were born to burn. In my book; that's tyrannical evil. Period.

From either...

...perspective, fears will one day cease, despite being normal experience now: either they will cease because we (and our love) cease to exist, or they will cease because Love ultimately conquers them, Love being all-in-all. In the meantime, fears certainly seem unavoidable to some degree, as you say.

It seems like we perhaps agree, though, that even in the here and now, there is such a thing as inordinate fear, or the allowing of fear to have a place within us that it should not. We bemoan those around us who allow fear instilled in them through the media, politicians, etc. to drive them to willingly trade their Liberty for some supposed measure of 'security'. A society that operates more out of fear of the 'other' than Love for the 'other' will not be as likely to live in peace and Liberty. I imagine you would rather have your daughters listen to your advice and warnings and corrections, not just out of fear of some kind of parental wrath or punishment, but out of love and respect for you.

So, even in this context, it seems that Love does contain or channel fears in more constructive ways, puts them in their proper place. The notion that Love is transcendent reality just extends this to final victory over such fears, beyond this current imperfection -- which, of course, is all nonsense if the naturalist view is correct.

Regarding hell, free will, etc.:

- without free will, there is no such thing as person; we're just automatons or meat puppets; there is no sense in which we can be morally accountable for anything we do; no real good or evil about us, if we are deterministic puppets

- there are various ways of viewing God's foreknowledge. One perspective is that He can know all the things that are knowable, free will acts being unknowable until they are actually chosen. He can anticipate possibilities and likely outcomes and chain reactions of the various decisions we might make, in His wisdom; and He can also set the final outcome in this sense -- He will never give up on working to reconcile all of His creatures to Love, through their voluntary decision to embrace it. He can refuse to give death and decay and non-Love the final victory, for anybody, no matter how long they may voluntarily wander away from Love and become entangled in the natural-law consequences of non-Love

- 'hell' then is simply the result of voluntary withdrawal from the call of Love, to cling on to selfish ambition, rather than dethroning Self and becoming the Servant of all, as Christ demonstrated; it is simply the natural effects of such withdrawal; it is not a final outcome, for anyone, in my view; it is just the deepest, darkest valleys on the journey that one may face until they choose to instead be reconciled to Love, to flee the non-Love which can only bring strife and decay

- another possible way to envision God's foreknowledge is that it is eternally, voluntarily constrained or limited by His Love, such that He allows room, space for other free wills, true persons, to exist. This is similar, I think, to some of the concepts of the Trinity, wherein God is in an eternal, dynamic relationship between the submissive Son and the loving Father and the Spirit. Eternal, voluntary laying down of Self as Servant in Love to the Other, as the very nature of God, Who is Love. :)

- so a God Who is calling all to be reconciled to Love, to complete the circle, is not a tyrant, if He allows or is constrained by His nature to allow free will to genuinely exist and operate and choose the path, the journey. Just because He refuses to give up on working to reconcile everyone, as the ultimate end we are predestined to eventually, voluntarily choose, does not mean there is no free will in determining the route to get there, the time it occurs, etc.

Sorry, up late, rambling on... will spare you (and my brothers and sisters who think my Universalist sympathies are nuts ) any more of it and head to bed. :)