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I Hate Religion

The following was written by my husband. I thought it was kinda funny seeing that I once wrote a post called, I Hate Feminism. I have many times been accused of being unloving when I say I hate something, but I contend that love is not love without hate. I.e. To truly love children, you must hate those acts which hurt children, etc.. So, to truly love freedom, you must hate all that enslaves.

I Hate Religion

Hate is a strong word, but I hate religion. I do, I really do. Why? Well, what is the supposed point of religion? Isn’t it supposed to get you close to God? Isn’t it supposed to provide the answer for our guilty consciences? Isn’t it supposed to have the answer to death? Exactly how many times are we supposed to get baptized anyway? How ‘bout the “sinners prayer”, ever tried that one? How many times? So how’s it working for you? Be honest with yourself. Have you been able to escape the sin you flee in church? Do you even want to flee sin? Did you really leave it behind in the confessional? Isn’t it true that we seem to be running toward that from which we are trying to escape? Just exactly where is the love, joy, peace, fulfillment, and lasting happiness we were promised from the pulpit? How come the marriage problems persist? Why do the drugs and alcohol never seem to leave? How come the ecstasy of porn is always there to lure? For that matter, why can’t I stop something as simple as telling lies? It kind of makes you feel like a fly on a sticky tape.

What about church? Why do they do the things they do in there anyway? Ever had a piece of extremely dehydrated, left over, stale piece of flatbread stuck to your tongue by a man you hardly know? It was supposed to be holy he said, but, didn’t you answer the call of nature later on? How about the offering plate? Why are they always asking for money? Have you seen the size of a lot of these church buildings and cathedrals? There sure are a lot of hungry people out there. What about the observed hypocrisy, and still worse, the unobserved? There sure have been a bunch of preachers and priests with misplaced ‘affections’.

What about all the blood shed in the name of Christ. As far as I know, Rome has never tried to apologize, make amends, or ever attempted to make reparations for the inquisitions, or the crusades. What about modern warfare and the “just war” dogma? Why are so many Christian groups like the American Family Association all for killing Muslims? “These Muslims are wrong for killing, so we better go kill ‘em.” I’m all for self defense, but this is not self-defense—it’s pre-emptive murder. Doesn’t the Bible say “thou shalt not kill”? Did not Jesus say to “love your enemies”? I don’t see a lot of love in this, do you? Oh, but America is different, right? Sure we are, just listen to Fox news.

What about when I die? How come religion makes all sorts of claims about heaven, yet can never really tell me how to get there? Oh they all make promises about it. All the Christian sects have a prescribed method of getting to heaven, but most that I have talked to don’t seem to have an answer for the big questions of life. You know, like: Why am I here? What is my purpose? What happens after death? For that matter most religious people that I have talked with do not KNOW where they will go after death, so why do they bother? What is the point? They will sometimes say that they are “pretty sure”, but what hope does that provide? I personally have better things to do with my time, than to play religious games with myself.

What about all the hypocrites? How is it that in almost every town in the U.S.A., we can find a church on every street corner, yet on any given Sunday, you would be hard-pressed to get an order filled speedily at any local restaurant. The church people on Sunday are like fire ants. The area will be crawling with them, and for the most part they really aren’t all that friendly. What is it with all these religious people running around, why aren’t they all trying to fix what is wrong with our nation? Oh, American idol, the latest movie, or porn flick must be on. Some things are more important.

I know, I’m pretty hard on religion. My only goal is to make you think. I mean no offense toward you, or disrespect, unless you are one of the above mentioned preachers or priests. Child molesters deserve no respect. But religion is a personal thing. We all have an internal desire for something to give us a place of rest, but again, religion is personal.

Well…..let’s get personal. Would you consider yourself to be good? Let’s find out if you really are. Have you ever lied to anyone? What would you call that person if they lied to you? Have you ever stolen anything? Wouldn’t you consider someone who stole from you to be a thief? Be honest with yourself. Jesus said that “you have heard it said, thou shalt not commit adultery, but I say unto you that whosoever looks upon a woman to lust after her, has committed adultery with her in his heart”. How ‘bout it fellas, ever done that one? You may say that “lookin ain’t wrong”, and to a degree you are correct. There is nothing wrong with acknowledging someone’s beauty, but to intellectually indulge in that person’s beauty for your own gratification is indeed selfish and therefore sinful. How would you like it if you saw someone leering at your wife, sister, or girl in sexual way? What about using God’s name for a cuss word to express disgust? Do you do that with your own name? Why? Do you do it with your loved one’s name? Do you even do it with your own enemy’s name? The Bible tells us that “God will not hold him guiltless that takes His name in vain”. So what do you think? How do you think God would look at you? Are you guilty? How will GOD sentence you? Heaven or Hell? It is an established fact of reality that religion has no power to make you innocent, nor can it help you to stop sinning. Even if it could help you stop, it would make no difference, you have already disobeyed the law of your conscience. You could stop sinning from now until the grave, and it would make no difference at all. Today’s right does not erase yesterday’s wrongs.

Well, what about forgiveness? What about it? If you forgive me for stealing from you, does it change the fact that I stole? We could become very good friends, but you would always remember that I am not totally trustworthy. If I get a speeding fine today, and don’t speed on my way to pay the fine, does that grant me a pardon in the sight of man’s law? I’ll tell you what. Stop by the church on the way. Tell the priest or preacher what you have done wrong. Once you have done so, ask him or her to call the courthouse and inform the judge that you have been forgiven. In fact don’t even show up for court. You confessed your crimes and asked for forgiveness didn’t you? Would it work? Well….what if you ask the judge for forgiveness, would he let you go? He may for a speeding fine, but what about murder? Would the judge release you because you plead for forgiveness? Not if he is a good judge. If asking an earthly judge for forgiveness generally doesn’t work, how would asking the Heavenly judge? So, back to that big question, how would God sentence you? Heaven or Hell? He is the ultimate judge, hence the impending doom of judgment day.

Most of us have no real answer for the above question. If a poll were taken we would end up with a few yeses, several nos, and a whole bunch of maybes. In the human mind, a maybe is a place of moderate assurance. Yet, most of us are not satisfied with a maybe when it comes to serious things in life. “Oh darling will you marry me?”-- “Maybe.” Or , “Here Mr. or Ms. Bank teller, deposit my check for me please”-- “I’ll try to do it right.” What nonsense! Would you put up with it? If not, then why is a “maybe” good enough for where you will spend eternity? Don’t believe in hell? It really doesn’t matter; reality is not affected by our perceptions.

Many in the liberty movement are confused about what liberty really is. There are a lot of you out there that have thrown off religion due to the above listed reasons, and I’m sure, reasons that are not listed as well. There is a reason for that. Religion in and of itself does not represent reality. Many of us during our childhood, had experiences in church, coupled with the fantasy of Hollywood and the government school system (tools used by parents that did not embrace childrearing on a real level of personal responsibility) that brought us to a point of rejection. That is, we rejected what we were taught because we saw subconsciously that we were being lied to, and since we could never find a definitive reason for the lifelessness of it all, we threw it off. It is why many of the atheists that I encounter were predominantly raised Roman Catholic. When a person sees he has been lied to by a presumptuous authority, the logical reaction is to throw it off. Unfortunately, many have fallen for the flipside and allowed it to dictate truth for them--- “truths” that are congruent with our predispositions and fetishes. Our desires, like religion, do not represent reality, and are therefore, a form of slavery as well. I have heard many say to me “God will never tell me what to do!! He is nothing but a sadist that demands total submission of me!! I am my own person!!!!!” all the while reaching for another Marlboro in their shirt pocket. Just because we find pleasure in vice, habit, or fetish does not mean that we are free.

Freedom has become another word for pleasure in the average liberty lover’s mind. Sorry folks, addictions are not liberty, but slavery. When a craving becomes an obsession, you are no freer than when you were stuck in religion. What is worse, we intellectually defend our obsessions, just as the neocon defends his republican socialism. And just as the republicans unwittingly usher in the NWO, so do you. The beast (establishment) has created a system of destruction, from the cradle to the grave, a continual barrage of everything from Sesame Street to the confessional, to keep our hearts and minds from seeing, embracing, and being set free by the Truth. It is the same on the university campus, where again, you are told where we came from, and where we are going. Only the messages in biology, or world religions, are much more appealing, because there is nothing in that to tell us we are wrong as individual sinners.

What exactly is sin anyway? Sin in its uttermost form is selfishness. There is nothing sinful about self awareness, self preservation, or our normal drives, but when we use our innate abilities or instincts for our own gratification as the end, then we have become sinful. There is nothing sinful about sexual pleasure or desire. There is nothing wrong with the knowledge that the curves of a woman are wonderful to examine, but if you use your sex drive, or your eyes, for your own gratification and that alone, then you have done that at someone else’s expense, and have sinned against that person. I can almost hear some of you with your ideas of , ‘well then masturbation is not wrong’, or, ‘why did He make me this way if it is sinful?’ All behavior is developed or learned behavior. The smoker laments his addiction, yet there was a time that sucking tobacco smoke into their lungs made them puke. They kept on with it until they were not only used to it, they developed a taste for it. Ask the porn star how happy they are with their notoriety. If you examine their personal lives, you will find that they too, learned and lament what they do. It is the same with any sin. Just as the physical part of our being can learn to find pleasure in things that were formerly repulsive, so it is with the soul. There was a time as children when we were innocent, and there was another time when we lost our innocence, either at our own choosing, or the choosing being done for us. It does not matter how we came to that point in our lives where we were no longer innocent. The fact is, we are no longer innocent. Is GOD going to send you to hell, because you were violated in some way? No, of course not, that’s ridiculous. It was not your fault if someone else violated your conscience, but it was your fault when YOU first violated your own conscience.

Many homosexuals will tell how they were molested at a young age. They will then go on to tell you of the lamentable choices they made later on. Our being victimized does not make us blameworthy, neither does it make us innocent. Sin is knowing to do good, and refusing to do it, therefore, sin is also knowing what evil is and embracing it. Calling evil good, and good evil is what the Bible refers to as a “reprobate mind”. Every sin began as a thought, no matter how brief, and when we learn to love wrongdoing, we ultimately love and embrace the evil in our thoughts. I see no love in that do you? The sad thing is, many will remain in that condition, and due to the hardness of heart, and conscience, never seek a way of escape. They will die defending their slavery.

So I ask you again, how will GOD sentence you? Where will you be sent? Will HE send you to the ultimate prison, or will HE set you free? It is your choice. You may receive the free gift of HIS pardon, or remain in your sin. HE has already paid the fine, it is time for you to believe. It is not religion; it is the person of Jesus Christ. The Bible tells us that GOD made Him to be sin for us, that we might receive the righteousness of GOD in HIM. We broke the law of our GOD given conscience, and became the opposite of what HE created us to be. Jesus paid our fine, so that we can be restored to what that original intention was. If you believe HIM then you have put on the LORD JESUS CHRIST, and GOD now sees you as righteous. For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, It is the gift of GOD, not of works, lest any man should boast. Your conscience can be made clean by trusting in the finished work of Jesus.
Thanks for taking the time to read.

Billy Joe Grace

Pro 14:34 Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me

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Dear God

Jesus (or as he was known in his day, Y'shua)

Hated religion, too. He had a deep contempt for those who had one set of laws for themselves, and another for others:

“They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger." (Matthew 23:4)

And, for those who think tithing sufficient:

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

"Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern." ~~C.S. Lewis
Love won! Deliverance from Tyranny is on the way! Col. 2:13-15

Life’s Ultimate Questions

Who am I?
Why am I here?
What is wrong with the world?
How can what is wrong be made right?

We may not all articulate those questions with those exact words, but in our soul each of us wrestles with those four basic questions.

Find the answers at:

On a side note, the author of the above article is Voddie Baucham, a Baptist pastor, that voted for Ron Paul in 2008 and planned to vote for him again in 2012. He wrote the following article also.

Why Ron Paul?

The following books may be of interest to any skeptics out there.

The Case for Christ
by Lee Strobel

Mere Christianity
by C.S. Lewis

Jesus Among Other Gods
By Ravi Zacharias and Kevin Johnson

Evidence That Demands a Verdict
by Josh McDowell

"And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand." Matthew 12:25

Lots of good...

...points here. Seems, though, that perhaps it is less about God sentencing people with some kind of retributive punishment, and more that those who violate the principles of Love will experience the negative consequences, the decay, the enslavement, the exile from right relationship with all else, that will only naturally ensue. What else can non-Love bring, but that? No 'sentencing' required.

And ultimately, there is no justice, or righting of wrongs, in mere punishment and suffering. As long as God's call to Love is thwarted in any creature, any person, as long injustices remain unaddressed, the aggressor unrepentant and/or the victim unforgiving, God will not truly be All-in-All. In some ways, with apparently most of His creation, His purposes will have been defeated.

But, thankfully, I don't see this as the final case, looking to the hope of a God Who is reconciling all things in heaven and earth to Him through the peace of Christ established through the cross -- through His life, death and resurrection -- the way demonstrated to us of dethroning selfish ambition, embracing the way of the Servant of all.

That's not to say that people will not bring the increasingly hellish fruits of non-Love upon themselves in the meantime, both now and in the aion(s) to come -- just that there is assurance in the character of God, that His Love truly never fails, always hopes; that however dark a particular situation is, God and each of His sons and daughters will not be ultimately defeated.

Garan's picture

Very broad statements against "Religion"

I don't consider myself part of any religion.

However, I was raised as a member of a small, local, Lutheran church.
I don't consider the experiences to be negative.
I often wonder how I could create a similar experience for any kids I raise, and I don't see many good options.

In fact, being raised around responsible adults, I believe has made me a better person. Unfortunately, many adults do not treat each other well, and I don't know how to deal with that. I just need to be around good people.

In retrospect, I value those Lutheran gatherings, and the safe/free environment. I think the social impact is positive.

Other religions or churches, may be a totally different story.

False Claim

"Many homosexuals will tell how they were molested at a young age"

I know many gay people in my line of work, and am good friends with a few. I've never heard any of them "tell" how they were molested. I suppose it is possible and they don't tell me. But, the only people who make that claim are usually anti-gay people making it up so their bigotry is relative to 'saving' someone.

"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."--Mark Twain

True claim (her husband)

I realize that I have not spoken to everyone who claims to be "gay", but I have seen many attest to what I have said. Again, all behavior is learned, and people end up one way or another due to how they were trained or influenced. Go to for an abundance of "gay" testimonies and listen for yourself.

Christians should not be warmongers!

No, not really

All behavior is not "learned". We still have instincts. Fight or flight, finding food, etc... I didn't "learn" to have an erection. It happens naturally and without intent. Trust me, as a teen, it is uncontrollable. No one "taught" me to be aroused when I see a naked breast, I can't help it.

By your claim, I would need to "learn" that a woman is attractive. Not true at all. If you have some evidence, I'm sure we would be fascinated.

"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."--Mark Twain

From my own experience

I was not molested and I did not learn to be gay Sexual orientation is not a behavior. Having sex is a behavior but who you are attracted to is not a behavior so lets not mix them up.

If you do want to claim it's a behavior then being straight would also be a learned behavior. How could anyone know what is natural if this is all learned behavior?

her hucband

There is no such thing as "sexual orientation", as sexual behavior is commonly expressed. It is normal and natural for a man to be attracted to a woman. It is the way we are made. Being "straight" is not learned. I never meant to imply that all homosexuals were molested, although that is often the case.
There is no law that says "thou shalt be gay". It is a choice. Regardless of how you came to the conclusion that you were "gay", you were influenced to gravitate to it.

Christians should not be warmongers!

It comes down to

either the Bible is God's Word to man or it's not. If it is God's Word to us we can not pick and choose what makes us feel good about ourselves.
Why is it important to believe in biblical inerrancy?
The Bible says homosexuality is a sin. Many years ago when I thought I was a Christian I was talking to someone and the discussion was about homosexuality. I did not see a problem with it. I was told God does not make mistakes. True and simply put.
What does the Bible say about homosexuality? Is homosexuality a sin?

"And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand." Matthew 12:25

Perhaps an over-generalization

Molestation is a touchy subject, not easily told even to those trusted. Whether by a singular event, or repeated abuse, a child or adolescent may deal with that damage in different ways, but the likely root of this behavior is not found in nature.

Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them. - Frederick Douglass


You start with a claim that every homosexual was molested or abused as a child. And your evidence for that??

Then, you make the claim that some children deal with abuse by becoming gay. Again, evidence? And, keep in mind that if one person out of millions who is homosexual was not abused then your entire theory is debunked.

Then, you claim that the root of homosexuality is not found in nature. Aside from animal examples, how do you know? Have you investigated prenatal hormone imbalances? Do you have biochemical and/or genetic proof that gay people are exactly the same as straight people?

Let me save you the time. You don't.

"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."--Mark Twain

You have a way of reading in what wasn't even implied

Smiling at your humorous reply, I already know the jury of peer readers here will judge this reply as more factual and consistent than whatever time saving options you offer.

First, I said, "a child or adolescent may deal with that damage, (molestation), in different ways", and that that behavior may be among other behavior options, as there were nine other behavior patterns in 1 Corinthians 6, listed as patterns broken by faith. There was no "claim" about dealing with molestation leading them only there, as you accuse me of needing evidence for. I can't defend what I didn't say, eh?

Sexual molestation, especially at a young age, ought to be expected to warp what ought to be a time of healthy innocence. Forcing anyone to deal with sexual trauma at any age is obviously wrong, but more so when the formative identity of who we are in this world is twisted that way. Though other reasons may come into play for why anyone chooses to be fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, or extortioners; it does seem reasonable that sexual abuse by adults likely makes abusers of themselves with mankind more prevalent than other reasons.

Nature has never flourished by making that which can't reproduce itself. It never has, and never will. Got any examples? No, I didn't think so.

Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them. - Frederick Douglass

Ahh....Got it

You are using a book of fairy tales to make a scientific/demonstrable claim.

Understood. Now I know why you avoid answering.

Best regards.

"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."--Mark Twain

I answered fully, you just didn't like the reply

You plainly asserted something I never said, and then claim I'm avoiding defending the straw man you created. How weak!

"You start with a claim that every homosexual was molested or abused as a child. And your evidence for that??"...

Anyone reading my posts before and after that knows that nothing even resembling that was even implied, but that doesn't stop you from demanding evidence for what we both know I didn't write!

"Then, you claim that the root of homosexuality is not found in nature. Aside from animal examples, how do you know?"

I do know that nature only produces what will healthy reproduce, and that only pollution and/or corruption forces other outcomes. If you've got any examples of where nature perpetuates itself fruitlessly, would you let us know?

Since you so carelessly careen through what can so easily read by others here, why should anyone care about your perceptions of what you decry as fairy tales?

Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them. - Frederick Douglass

I've listened to hundreds of homosexuals (as well as other

hurting people), and I have heard of none who had a perfect upbringing. When a child is abused or even just neglected (sent to public school for example), he comes to view his world as normal and usually will not equate what happened to him with what he has become. It's part of human nature.

Christians should not be warmongers!

That is an argument from ignorance fallacy

No one has a perfect upbringing, period. You have no basis for your assumption that abuse or neglect causes homosexual behavior. It is probably the same percentage as the general population of around 8%. You have a theory based on some observation, but I think you have a false conclusion. Unless you can provide some evidence to support your theory, independently verifiable, not your opinion, then no one should accept your idea, even if they agree with you.

Homosexuality is most likely caused by imbalances and excesses in the mother's hormones during pregnancy.

"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."--Mark Twain

Taking a stand with your feet firmly planted in mid-air

When you use the phrase, "is most likely caused", to qualify your position, you equivocate your authority away from science, and onto your not-so-humble opinion, eh? Ignorant fallacy argument, indeed.

Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them. - Frederick Douglass

Just semantics

I used the phrase "most likely caused" because it is the most viable theory at this point. And, frankly, it makes perfect sense looking at the function and effects of hormones. From the little I have read they have ruled out basic genetics and childhood events. It is just not something that scientist study much, it is a very recent subject and not focused on.

And, you should look up what an Argument from Ignorance Fallacy is, I'm not even close.

"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."--Mark Twain

"Mind Conditioning" in youth can make some abuse seem natural

Blocking out, or partitioning away trauma is a natural defensive response when escape is unavailable. Could that be part of what this behavior is about? We aren't given a full explanation of how it was established as a behavior pattern, but we are told that the Corinthians had those among them in their church, who, "were", but no longer are, living in that pattern, nor any of nine other patterns listed.

"And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." - 1 Corinthians 6:11

Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have the exact measure of the injustice and wrong which will be imposed on them. - Frederick Douglass

The Ultimate Question

her husband here

I can't help but say...what a total hypocrite! This man is nothing more than an "evangelist" of his own religion. He is the poster child for what I cited in my post.
Ignorance fueled by pride leads to the religion of atheism. He may claim he is on his "own" path, yet if it were true, he would never bother to read and quote the opinions of anyone. No Dawkins, no Sagan, no Joyce Meyer, nothing. He is the ultimate example of what it means to be a "sheeple"

Christians should not be warmongers!

If atheism is a religion ...

should you not be out killing all atheists as your god commands?
Deut 13:13-15 – If the people of any city worship other gods (atheism as you suggest), you must slaughter them all, including their cattle.
Deut 17:3-5 – Any man or woman who worships other deities must be stoned to death.
2 Chron 15:13 – Any man or woman who refuses to “seek the Lord God of Israel” must be killed.
Are you being true to the words of your god? How many atheists have you killed so far?

ignorance (her husband)

Say what you will about Old Testament law, but ignorance on the subject does not justify your claim.

The law of Moses was given to the Jewish people, and them only. It did not, and does not apply to the Gentile world. It does not even apply to them (the Jews) now.
The law was given to show them, and ultimately mankind, that we can never live up to any standard of righteousness. They had the ultimate theocracy and failed miserably. They, like you hated GOD, due to their misunderstanding and doubt. They missed the point, and so do you.

Christians should not be warmongers!

Denise B's picture

Romans 1:22:

"Thinking themselves wise, they became fools". Is what comes to mind when I listened to only the few minutes I could stand of this guy. Another God hater spewing his ignorance. Nothing new here. I'm sure he has no problem with children being taught that they evolved from monkeys, when there is not a shred of proof of that. I'm sure he doesn't mind them being told "just take our word for it" in that case. I love how these guys always quote scripture out of context and apply it incorrectly while they stand there worshipping their god of science, which changes it's stance practically daily. LOL


Because both Seth Andrews and Matt Dillahunty started out as hardcore theists, as devout as you get; Seth a Christian DJ for 10+ years, Matt studying in seminary.

You would have likely said or thought "Amen" had you met or heard either of them in that period of their lives.

They both are smart as hell, rational as hell, reasonable as hell, fair and consistent, and honest as hell; and they had to be honest about what they had been looking at, studying, reading, and born into. They decided to step out, zoom out, and take a critical and objective look at themselves and their beliefs, read the bible from cover to cover, and judge their religion like they do any other religion.

So perhaps you are not a fan of honesty and consistency.

This cuts both ways: A Christian can think and still come to the

wrong conclusion, and atheists do get it right:

Allan Rex Sandage was an 'practical' atheist since he was a child. The 'Grand Old Man of Cosmology', his seat at the 1985 conference on Science and Religion among the atheists seemed a given. However, he turned and sat among the theists. During a talk about the the Big Bang.....he disclosed his decision to become a Christian at age 50.

"It was my science that drove me to the conclusion that the world is much more complicated than can be explained by science," He later told a reporter, "It was only through the supernatural that I can understand the mystery of existence."

Sandage said further: "Many scientists are driven to faith by their very work."

And he's not alone: Anthony Flew wrote a whole book about it! You can read a review of his book here as well. (Quotes are at this link, sut you can scroll down for the link to the book review)

as far as the correlation to IQ, the issue of lower IQ's is more related to economic status than faith:

BTW, Hell is reasonable, but only in the sense that there is some sort of containment for prevent it's spread.

"Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the office of a thoroughly nasty business concern." ~~C.S. Lewis
Love won! Deliverance from Tyranny is on the way! Col. 2:13-15

I doubt you could call them and have a "one on one like this

Seth Andrews and Matt Dillahunty will be happy to take your calls, and you will get the type of rational explanations given by them that you heard in the 2 videos posted here.

I know of the Anthony Flew case, he was one of the most well known and devout atheists, this was before the internet days.

I do not know Flew's or Sandridge's arguments for why they then chose to accept a theist proposition; but I would bet that it simply came down to INCREDULITY; perhaps a "must be a first cause," or "must be a designer," or "must have been a fine-tuner" argument.

None of these arguments have any base in RATIONALITY; it is based in INCREDULITY.

Either way, listen to Matt's plain arguments for why EVEN IF you accept a theist proposition, and you consider the bible to be the testimony to the character, nature, and morality of god, RATIONALITY still leads you to believe that god supports immorality, and according to the stories in the bible, IS THE BIGGEST KILLER OF THEM ALL.

Now I while I have heard of Flew's case, I've never actually heard a theist quote one of Flew's arguments for why he accepts theism.

You can read (interestingly enough) a book by

Richard Wurmbrand called "The Answer to Moscow's Bible", and see all the arguments put forth by the Atheist Communists, refuted. Wurmbrand was once an atheist himself, but went on to believe in Jesus Christ and suffer horribly for his faith under Stalin.

Christians should not be warmongers!