25 votes

Free Market Health Coverage Is Here

This is my first post on the DP as a new member. I have been going to the DP everyday for years now and it has changed my life.

Now I'd like to help change yours.

In December 2013 I received a call from Blue Cross Blue Shield telling me my health insurance plan was canceled. It did not meet the new requirements in the ACA and I was told I needed to select a new plan. I asked what it would cost to get the same plan I had before with the new mandates. It went from $110/month to $260/month and my deductible went from $3000 to $5500. I was shocked, upset and let down.

Obamacare hit me personally. This new law finally caught up to me and I'm sure many others.

I told BCBS to pound sand and I would just eat the penalty. I'm in my mid 30's and healthy for the most part so what the hell? I'll go without.

Then I got to thinking there must be way out of this. I found an article on Brietbart called "8 ways to opt out of Obamacare"
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/12/25/Top-8-Way...

In that article I discovered the HealthSharing concept and immediately looked into the one that caught my eye... Liberty HealthShare. I read the info/checked pricing on their site and thought it was too good to be true so I called. And yes it's all true!

There is a free market solution for healthcare.

https://www.libertyhealthshare.org/

My deductible is only $500 and I pay $199/month. I live in MN and but buy my coverage from OH?!?!? Across state lines! There is only one catch. You must believe your rights came from God and not abuse drugs. We also do not cover sex changes, abortions and preexisting conditions if you wanted all that mess.

I have a card in my wallet just like anyone else and I can go to almost ANY doctor. We do not have in network or out of network. Doctors even like us better than insured because they get paid quicker through our system.

I had a lot of questions as I was trained by insurance companies to think that pooling money together with others is complicated and required a lot of paperwork. Clear your mind and take a deep breath. It's nothing more than people pooling money together to pay our medical expenses.

I want to call the DP community to action. I want YOU to look at this and share this gift with everyone you know. These people are great to talk to/work with so call them if you have questions. They have answered all bazillion of my questions to point that I was satisfied.

https://www.libertyhealthshare.org/

Stop giving your money to people who will do bad things with it.

Last but not least thanks for reading my 1st post on the DP. You people are awesome!



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Dave Bellis, the guy who runs this was on the Peter Schiff show

on April 30th, 2014. If you are a premium member you can listen.

Tu ne cede malis.

Candidates for Liberty Webpage:
http://candidates4liberty.com/home.html

2016 Liberty Candidate Thread:
http://www.dailypaul.com/329012/2016-liberty-candidate-thread

Very Interesting

Liberty Health Share is very interesting.

The system seems to be setup as a collective payment system more than an insurance company's plan.

Comparing Liberty to ACA Bronze and Silver plans: You will have a lot less money out of pocket if you have a medical problem.

Liberty seems to make a lot of sense for broke, or near broke, individuals. Personally, the ACA bronze plan high deductibles would result in me selling stuff to cover the high deductible amount.

Liberty seems to have this worked out well enough for me to understand.

-Larz

Why not just save $199 a

Why not just save $199 a month for medical expenses?

I ask this of any insurance need.

Isn't savings the best insurance?

Only if you already HAVE the savings.

If you have enough savings to cover major medical expenses -- and have enough money that you wouldn't MISS the money you would have to spend on medical, then you may not need insurance.

But if your savings are less than adequate, then you probably should have insurance. Tucking away $199 a month as savings won't help you much if you get sick or injured in the first year or two of your savings program.

Recommended reading: The Most Dangerous Superstition by Larken Rose

Freedom not to participate

Mashley it seems you ended up better off than your original Blue Cross Blue Shield. When BCBS told you your insurance did not meet the new ACA requirements they may not have known about a section of the ACA that is buried deep in the works.

The ACA is an amendment to Title 42 USC and section 18115 is the freedom not to participate in Federal health insurance programs. It reads:
"No individual, company, business, nonprofit entity, or health insurance issuer offering group or individual health insurance coverage shall be required to participate in any Federal health insurance program created under this Act (or any amendments made by this Act), or in any Federal health insurance program expanded by this Act (or any such amendments), and there shall be no penalty or fine imposed upon any such issuer for choosing not to participate in such programs."

Just my 2¢.

This is Outstanding

information Red Pills! Would you happen to know how we could claim (proclaim) this section 18115 in our tax returns next year?

Thanks very much for posting this. I think you're way undervaluing it @ 2 cents!

time is wasted in minutes not hours

mashley Let Me Help You

I know James Lansberry who runs a much larger Ponzi Scheme than yours. Lansberry and I were on many radio shows together fighting Obamacare. Lansberry's deal is called Samaritan Ministries and they have about 85,000 paying "Christians". Your Liberty Health Share has about 1,000.

http://medcitynews.com/2013/10/americans-choose-healthcare-s...

This is what I would do if I was you. A 35-year-old male in the 55401 Minnesota zip code should switch to Short Term Medical (STM) with a $5,000 deductible for $87 a month. This is from TIME Insurance Company, America's oldest health insurance company.

Because you are a tight wad during open enrollment you can switch to Preferred One, a local yocal in Minnesota, with a $6,300 deductible that pays 100% for $110 a month. This plan qualifies for a tax-free HSA. Now you can save premium, eliminate taxes and build wealth.

Depending on your income the cost might diminish with Federal tax credits. For example, if you have Modified Adjusted Gross Income (MAGI) of $20,000 you will get $62.48 credit so your payment drops to $47.78 per month.

This advise will give you legal rights. Now you over-pay and have NO LEGAL RIGHTS.

I hope this helps with your confusion.

Confused? Ponzi Scheme?

Classy RG,

I'm not confused at all. The price is not my only concern here and BTW they dropped their prices already last year. If more people sign up they will do it again.

I also don't want to be forced to pay for procedures I do not agree with. Your solution assumes I need or would even take a subsidy. I don't qualify and if I did I would not take it. That only forces others to pay more so I could get it cheaper. That doesn't fly for me and shouldn't for you. The HSA contribution limit is $3300. Not retirement money we are talking about here. So, thanks for the name drop but I don't see any solutions here. Just another cheap plan that complies with the ACA and has a very high deductible. Not interested. My mind is made up and I do not need your "Help". thanks.

And what legal rights am I missing out on? Do cash customers not have any legal rights? There I am confused.

What radio station? What show? Where can I hear it? You drop the big name so who the hell are you doing these big time radio shows? I want to hear those and see what you guys talked about. Did you tell him it was a ponzi scheme?

"To ski powder is to waste it" - Jake Burton

Legal Rights - Let's Look Together

Your plan documents read: "This program does not guarantee or promise that your medical bills will be paid or assigned to others for payment. Whether anyone chooses to pay your medical bills will be totally voluntary. As such, this program should never be considered as a substitute for an insurance policy."

So, if you get a head full of brain tumors and they don't pay your bills do you think you can sue?

Also: You said, "Your solution assumes I need or would even take a subsidy." That's not true. I said to switch to STM with TIME, America's oldest health insurance company, for $87 a month. STM only pays to $2 million so it is not ACA compliant and there are no tax credits.

I was doing radio shows with Lansberry before the ACA was passed in 2010. The ACA made premiums explode upwards on 1/1/2014 to where they are today. Lansberry's plan was $200 a month for a single and I always used an example of a 30-year-old male at $60 a month for HSA coverage. I'm sure Lansberry preferred to do shows without me.

You asked: "What radio station? What show? Where can I hear it? You drop the big name so who the hell are [you] doing these big time radio shows?" - Radio stations from coast to coast. I have been on WHO in Des Moines 3 times with Jan Mickelson. I'm sure Rand will be on with Jan if he runs in 2016. The first time I was on WHO with Jan was in the year 2000. Back then TIME Insurance Company was doing the TEST of tax-free MSAs which were renamed in 2004 to tax-free HSAs.

Jan went toe to toe with Romney flip flopping on abortion. You can listen to some of that below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5sXcdiL1wE

FiresofFreedom's picture

Im good not getting sex changes or abortions

Does it have to be god or can it be a higher power that I believe has no name?

Can someone tell me if you

Can someone tell me if you are able to deduct the monthly payments to the share fund, as a charitable donation, and thus, get a tax deduction? Thanks!

It's not a charity.

If you don't pay your contributions, you're not eligible for "sharing." It's a private "religious" organization, but it only dispenses funds to paid-up members. Nice try.

Recommended reading: The Most Dangerous Superstition by Larken Rose

Some churches here in MT

have had this for years. I thought you had to be a member of the church offering the ins. This may be the way the IRS will get around the insurance offerings, local members only.

There isn't a free market for health care

Do you even understand what the word 'free' implies? Liberty Health Share isn't 'free' from the long arm of the government. Did you bother to read their legal disclaimers? Do you know why they must state, repeatedly I might add, that they 'are not an insurance co. and do not provide insurance'? Do you know how many forms they must submit to the government for approval in order to be allowed to be 'tax-free'?

This is not free market, not in any way. They operate at the convenience and whim of the government. If the government didn't give them permission to operate they would be out of business. That's not 'free market', that's a government regulated and controlled market.

Whoa whoa!

The only point I will grant you is that HealthSharing is allowed within the ACA as an exemption. In EVERY other way this is a free market solution and who really cares if it's called insurance or not. It covers my health care costs just like an insurance company. And yes I understand what a "free" means.

"To ski powder is to waste it" - Jake Burton

Free market in every other way?

Holy shit, you and the people upvoting your reply really don't know what a free market is, do you?

How much paperwork should any providers in a 'free market' be forced to complete and submit by an unwanted third party? Should 'free market' providers of goods and services be required to obtain & maintain permission from this unwanted third party to be allowed to stay in business? Do you believe that the costs associated with the steps necessary to be in compliance with this third party's demands by suppliers in a 'free market' is $0?

How can you possibly believe that a market which is interfered with by government in these manners is 'free'? And more importantly, how can you NOT realize how a market that is FREE from such interference would be the only one which was FREE?

I take issue with the use of the term 'free market'

I take issue with the use of the term 'free market' when it is used to describe a market which is in no way 'free' from government intervention. The only way to have a 'free market' is to have a market where suppliers of goods & services are able to sell their goods & services to buyers without the unwanted intervention of an unwanted third party to those transactions. So, this is not a 'free market' solution, this is a solution that is less costly and that stays within the confines of the limitations placed on it by government. Not. Free. Market.

You can't solve the problems you don't even recognize.

I would like someone who is a health share user

to post their experience if they ended up in a hospital and/or needed alot of healthcare services. What percentage of the bill was paid? How quickly were payments made? etc.

Haven't made it

Past my deductible yet ($500) but my physical was paid for 100% (1/year) and I do have a card I give them for payment, discounts and account info. Everything went smooth just like my old Insurance. Once you get an account there is a monthly newsletter that goes out and shows how much was submitted for claims and how much was paid on those claims and so far 100% has been paid. I know the doctors like it because instead of waiting months for payment from Insurance companies or the government they get paid in about a week. We are similar to cash customer as far as the providers are concerned. I was also told they have a negotiating team for large claims and do a very good job at reducing the cost on your behalf. The percentage of payment is laid out on their site.

Good Luck!

"To ski powder is to waste it" - Jake Burton

Thx for the info!

Good to know that physicals are paid for.

Michael Nystrom's picture

Welcome mashley

This looks great, but I have a question. I emailed Liberty Health Share and am waiting on a response, but in the mean time, maybe you could answer it for me and the rest of the folks here at the DP.

In Massachusetts (and I presume in other states), we're required to file a form with our state income tax showing that we were covered by health insurance. I assume the same is true for federal income taxes as well?

Liberty makes it very clear on their website that they are not insurance - so how does one get around this requirement?

A quick Google search turned up this on MA law:
http://taxes.about.com/od/statetaxes/a/Massachusetts-health-...

A religious exemption is available for anyone who has a sincere religious belief that is the basis for not purchasing health insurance coverage.

Is this the key? Is there also a Federal religious exemption? And if so, how does one go about 'proving' it?

This is the only sticking point for me and Samantha. As I mentioned on another thread, we're currently shelling out $1,200 through Samantha's plan at her work. If we could find something cheaper, we could pocket that whole difference, and that would be a huge savings for us!

- - -

I noticed that The Self Pay Patient mentioned in the Breitbart article was also discussed in Liberty's newsletter. It looks like there is a lot of useful info there.

We just got set up with a new advertising system on the DP.
http://www.dailypaul.com/advertise

I think they would get a lot of bang for their buck here, and I'd love to work with them on testing & honing a message. Not to mention that the DP could use the revenue!

There is nothing better than promoting something that is useful and something you believe in.

Thanks. Great first post!

He's the man.

Not sure about Massachusetts as a state but..

Federal is no problem. I had the same question. Here's the page on the site with all the info you will need. http://www.libertyhealthshare.org/healthcare-exempt-from-oba...

The exemption language is found in section 5000A on page 128. http://www.libertyhealthshare.org/content/BILLS-111hr3590enr...

I live in Minnesota and there is no conflict with this law but I am not entirely sure about how Massachusetts works. I think the ACA is the law of the land and therefore you would also just fill out the federal exemption form for your 2014 tax returns next April.

Many people have a hard time understanding the concept when you strip the word "insurance" away. Heads spin and spew vomit. I would think Liberty minded people would do better with this.

Good luck to you Michael!

"To ski powder is to waste it" - Jake Burton

Religious exemption for healthshare ministries

I've been signed up with Liberty Healthshare for a few months, myself. I haven't used any medical services since joining, so I can't vouch for how well it works, yet.

Liberty Healthshare is not insurance, Michael, so your Massachussets law may be a major problem for you; you should probably contact Liberty and see if the "religious exemption" in your state law applies to health-sharing ministries. There is no such problem for me under California law. As regards the insurance mandate of Obamacare, Liberty has this to say:

ACA Deadline Is Past
What’s the effect on Liberty HealthShare Members?

Members of recognized health care sharing ministries are EXEMPT from the ‘individual mandate’: the requirement that every American purchase health insurance or face penalties.
Under the law, you must:

Be exempt, OR
Purchase health insurance by March 31st, OR
Face a fine imposed and collected by the IRS.

Health care sharing is in the US health care legislation (Affordable Care Act) as an acceptable option to meet the law’s individual mandate for health cost coverage. Being a member of a recognized health care sharing ministry REMOVES your requirement to purchase health insurance!

Federal regulations require to be considered a health care sharing ministry, the organization must submit information to Health and Human Services substantiating that the organization meets the standards specified in the law. Liberty HealthShare submitted substantiating materials that we comply with the 5 requirements in the ACA for recognition as a 'health care sharing ministry' in November, 2013.

For a chart comparing the ACA’s definition of a health care sharing ministry and Liberty HealthShare, follow this link: Click Here

The process for members to secure their exemption has now been defined. It’s as simple as this: Individual taxpayers will use a special form to notify the IRS when filing 2014 taxes (on or before April 15, 2015) that they are a member of Liberty HealthShare. The IRS will issue an exempt certificate to the taxpayer participating in a recognized healthcare sharing ministry to confirm they are exempt from the ‘shared responsibility payment’ (penalty). (source)

The bottom line: for my 2014 tax return, I fill out an IRS exemption form. Hopefully the IRS will approve it; if not, I guess I'll be joining a class action lawsuit, because Liberty Healthshare DOES fully comply with the legal requirements for exemption.
Thankfully, even in the worst case, I can't be forced into Obamacare; my income is too low.

Recommended reading: The Most Dangerous Superstition by Larken Rose

Michael Nystrom's picture

Thank you dabooda, for the detailed reply

I think I'm getting closer to understanding what is going on. I'm waiting to hear back from them, and when I do, I'll share what I learn here as well.

He's the man.