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Argh Let it go already

I should know better than to post stuff about faith and religion here.

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shush. A boy has his


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Knowledge is power?

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The great part is "we" don't

The great part is "we" don't have to think anything; you must do this by yourself.

I believe everything you all have said is important and


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Having faith or knowing truth - which is the higher aim?

I fall back on faith only when I run out of facts.

Love or fear? Choose again with every breath.

The Dr. Bahnsen and Dr. Stein great debate

"When we go to look at the different world views that atheists and theists have, I suggest we can prove the existence of God from the impossibility of the contrary. The transcendental proof for God's existence is that without Him it is impossible to prove anything. The atheist world view is irrational and cannot consistently provide the preconditions of intelligible experience, science, logic, or morality. The atheist world view cannot allow for laws of logic, the uniformity of nature, the ability for the mind to understand the world, and moral absolutes." - Dr. Bahnsen

...and his opponent opens with...

I will grant Dr. Bahnsen his expertise on A Conditional Resolution of the Apparent Paradox of Self-Deception, which was his dissertation. I don't know how much more relevant that is to our discussion tonight than mine is, probably not any more. But I would also like to thank Dr. Bahnsen for showing us that he really doesn't understand too much about atheism. I will try to straighten him out." - Dr. Stein

With these two statements it begins what has been declare a "great debate"!. So, if you have not heard of it then I would say check it out. These two are much more cordial and kind than the "author" of this posted article.

In his closing remark of the great Bahnsen & Stein debate Dr. Bahnsen stated that there could be no rational scientist in an atheist world.

You should check out the entire debate. Here I have Dr. Bahnsen's closing statement.


Here is the debate in text.



Have a blessed day.

The night is far spent, the day is at hand.
And those who have not heard shall understand.

Open up any Biology textbook,

Open up any Biology textbook, and you will find an extensive passage from the cult of Darwin, lionizing his personage and neglecting to mention his strong connections to the social theorists of the time who believed in racial hierarchy and laid the foundational philosophy for eugenics and "social hygiene."

Faith, unfortunately, is a human trait. Where we do not have a God to worship, we worship Baal or Darwin or whoever or whatever Golden Calf comes along.

Before you analyze the faith of others, analyze your own. Such an analysis should take thirty to forty years, and in fact may never be complete. After that, analyze others.

I am a strong believer in evolution and even personally admire the works of Darwin. He was not just a scientist; he was also a poet. But I guess I don't get to enjoy him because I am unwilling to place him above faith. That, I believe, is much worse than the intolerance of religion, and opposed much more to truth.

I have faith that the Daily

I have faith that the Daily Paul will be here in the morning :) I also have faith that you will be here knocking believers whom have faith in God :)

I have confidence, based on experience...

..that that which I recall being here yesterday will be here tomorrow. In the face of evidence and reason, faith is unnecessary.

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West of 89
a novel of another america

And one day..

when the DP isn't here, then evidence and reason are then null and void? Whether you like it or not, faith and confidence are interchangeable. It's just that some people are allergic to any words that could possibly be mistaken for something religious.

Help me understand...

Let me offer an example.

Say either of us were to hold an ordinary pencil at arms length and drop it.

I think it is fair to say that we would both be "confident" that it will fall to the ground (it won't float).

If our confidence were measurable, we would probably be more than 99.99% confident.

In other words, if we were given the opportunity to wager on whether or not it would fall, and the terms of the wager were we would win $1 if it fell and we would lose $10,000 if it floated, we would both take that bet over and over for the rest of our lives. Assuming we could drop it 1000 times every hour, it would likely become both of our full time jobs (at least it would be for me...maybe you already earn more than $1000 an hour).

I'm sure you get my drift.

Anyway, here is my question: is it fair to say we have "faith" that the pencil will fall?


Faith is belief IN SPITE of reason or evidence. Sometimes it's actually contrary to logic or observation.

dynamite anthrax supreme court white house tea party jihad
West of 89
a novel of another america

I agree with this

I know many of people here are religious, but i am not. I'm amazed that in no other situation would you " religious people " justify something that is completely fabricated fantasy and in no way justified by rational thought.

I see no need for a heaven , hell , afterlife , resurrection , virgin birth , water into wine, and many more completely ridiculous fairy tales (miracles). If you talk about the Great Flood and other " Plausibly Factual events " we can be on the same page. Its not all fake but the message of GOD or "Good" has been molested to the point it is unrecognizable from its true intent.

With that said... I believe in GOD but it's not the GOD of any denomination i know of. My GOD has never and will never take any physical form and show his might and greatness through ridiculous miracles . In fact if something came down out of the clouds and proclaimed they were god... I would conclude they are alien immediately. God lives in everyone and his presence can only be witnessed through your belief in him and the desire to be good and treat others with respect and kindness.

So actual Blind Faith then

This is what the author above is ACTUALLY talking about when it comes to blind faith. You reject recorded history for your own evidentially nonexistent version of God that you prefer to believe in for no reason other than that you like how that idea sounds.

I would have to say

that my belief in God is just as valid ( or delusional ) as yours. I don't refute the factual parts of the bible, but i reject the notion that miracles are real.

If you want to reach the right conclusions

ya gata believe in the right things. False (but consistent) premeses will yield false conclusions with impeccable logic.

Leges sine moribus vanae

Faith is THE OPPOSITE of knowledge

When you KNOW something, you do not "invoke faith."

Only one time when you bust out the old "you need faith" tactic. When you can't legitimately convince that you are correct; aka "When you know you are wrong..."

But wanna keep believing anyway.



Bob says "Blacks are not even human. Blacks are not even of the human species."

All of science and empiricism says the opposite, blacks are even identical down to the dna primarily. They have proven to be capable of performing all of the same tasks as whites, ans so have been shown to be "No different than whites, and thus "just as human" as whites."

But Bob says "Well you gotta have faith that blacks are not human. My momma and daddy always used to tell me, and I have faith that mom and dad were smart and truthful as well..."


You can see that Bob is "Just a racist." And the "faith" is used to support his conclusions, even though there is not a single reasonable argument that can be made to support his conclusion.

"Faith" is "wishful thinking."

"Faith" is abandoning reason and rationality.

"Faith" is THE OPPOSITE of knowledge. At least the way we always use the word "knowledge."


So "faith" is disgraceful and disgusting imo. It is not a virtue. It is as virtuous as Bob sticking to his anti-black racism. JUST as virtuous. Just another topic. God instead of race.

Good point on race and species.

As Dr. Harold Page Freeman, chief executive, president, and director of surgery at North General Hospital in Manhattan, says, “If you ask what percentage of your genes is reflected in your external appearance, the basis by which we talk about race, the answer seems to be in the range of 0.01 percent."

That why it is troubling that many evolutionists gathered 'data' to support their racists views. As Stephen Gould said "Biological arguments for racism may have been common before 1850, but they increased by orders of magnitude following the acceptance of evolutionary theory."

faith in what?

It's just as easy to believe in an uncaused universe as an uncaused God. However, I also acknowledge that in politics, we strive to be positive rather than negative, and that the vast majority of Americans exercise their religious faith in positive, helpful ways, a net gain over many other ways of passing time or helping people who actually need it.
Just for the record, I personally believe (not 'have faith in') a "god" that arrived in a flying saucer or mothership, and genetically created the human race out of the available hominid root stock. What do religious people say about what happened in Sumer 2000 years before the Bible was written? Duh. Or Gobekli Tepe, 12,000 years old? Uh, so what? etc.

"To the morally inverted, war appears as a quick, clear path to the top." -- Preston Parker

When Americans Support Israel...

When Americans Support Israel... usually because of their Christian background (faith), I do not see this as "a net positive."

The same "faith" in god is given to "country" and "government." The proposal of a benevolent entity.

I see them all as the same "worship." God, country, government, nationality, local sports team loyalty, etc...

face palm

I dont think faith means what you think it means.

That said you will do okay until you get out of school. you said (When you KNOW something, you do not "invoke faith.") Thats all well and good as long as you have a text book to fill out a test, but when you want to learn something new often times it takes a little faith. For instance columbus believed the world was round when everyone else KNEW it was flat. He took his ships west and found the americas. New knowledge often comes about by faith. As long as you are simply answering a question from the text book you will not need faith for anything but when you get out of school you will need a little faith.

A lot of scientific discoveries have been made despite what everyone "KNEW".

More often than not "knowledge" gets in the way of science, where faith opens the door to new discoveries.

You're arguing from false history.


Most academics who would have had something to say about Columbus' "round earth" views would not have disagreed with him. Most of Western Civilization going back to Ancient Greece has believed in a sphere-shaped earth. This "flat earth myth" was created by butt-hurt Darwinists who were upset that people were being skeptical of their "ape-man" theory.

“My attitude toward progress has passed from antagonism to boredom. I have long ceased to argue with people who prefer Thursday to Wednesday because it is Thursday.” - G.K. Chesterton

"Faith" and many other words have many uses.

Theists try to slimily foggy the landscape by using multiple definitions at once. Like in the word "theory" and "faith."

Ray Comfort (theist) asks atheists "Do you have FAITH in your wife?

And every single one says: I can show you my wife, I have wedding pics...


As you see it has many uses. Obviously when invoked in religion, it just means "belief in god."

"Faith" can mean "trust," or "certainty," or "hope..." Heck it could mean alot.

Normally though. We say "We have faith:" When we lack rational and empirical reasons for our convictions. When you can't point to the rational reason for your belief, or someone points to a rational argument that counters your belief, THEN, the old "Faith (trump) card" comes out.

"Faith" is like the "Joker" in a deck of cards. It doesn't make sense like the other cards. It is not rational. It has no value like the rest of the cards do. The rest of the cards "have order" and can be placed in order to form patters like a straight. But Jokers "are just wild, no rhyme or reason, irrational."

Faith according to the Bible

is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (hebrews 11:1) So its definitely not just belief. Heck the Bible says the devil believes and trembles. That does not mean that the devil has faith.

To say someone believes in a god makes them have faith is ignorant. James 2 says What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Simply put if someone says they believe but then does nothing with that belief then they have no faith. For instance you can say I believe that this chair will hold my weight but if you are unwilling to sit in the chair you have no faith.

as to the whole faith thing being irrational, well you got that part right. It was irrational for columbus to go west to get to india. It was irrational for george muller to start an orphanage and not ask a single person for a dime, he simply prayed it in. This man ended up feeding ten thousand orphans a day on prayer without asking for a dime. It was irrational for george washington to lead the americans against the british.

Using 2 definitions - Do you even take this serious?

"Faith" that your physical belief in a continent is not the same as "Faith that a benevolent matterless mind has a place in heaven and hell awaiting us both."

If you take this serious, you can see that "faith" can have many definitions and contexts.

This one is SPECIFICALLY proposing a deity. A personal god.

I think you have watched too many santa clause movies

In every santa clause movie if you believe in santa clause you get a present and magic happens. That is not faith. Belief is a part of faith but belief alone is never faith, same way a spark plug is not an engine.

Faith in the simplest form is belief in action. Lots of people believe in a god, but most have no faith. How many people will say I believe in God but then wont go to church, wont read their Bible, wont pray, in effect they believe in something abstract that they call God. Thats not faith. Faith demands action.

That said God is not abstract, he is a person. 2000 years ago he left heaven and cae to earth, was born of a virgin, lived 33 years and never sinned, then he went to the cross and died for my sins and your sins. We are all destined for hell because of that sin but if you accept Christ your destiny can change. Believing in God is not enough to get you to heaven you must ask him to be your savior Romans 10:9 says "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved". Belief with confession is necessary for salvation. Belief with action, this is faith.

A hint

And a hint on why you are failing. Faith is DERIVED from knowledge, not opposite to it.

No arguments presented.

I would love to address the substance of your arguments. But you have not presented an argument. Or a rebuttal. Only your "gang colors."

Everything you said makes sense - The DP will downvote heavily..

So sad. I am finding out how religious, superstitious, and just plain bigoted much of the DP is.

First with the support of Kent Hovind. And now by seeing how strongly the board will downvote your OP here.


All you did was present your reason, your arguments. Plain Jane, just arguments and principles.

And the DP will downvote.

And show their emotional bigoted position.


People won't respond with plain reasonable counter arguments. They will just point out the LACK OF REASON that your OP brings up in the first place. And respond with "I have faith, faith is virtue..."

Right over their head.


And on the topic of "faith." WHERE ELSE do we see "Faith as a method of discerning correctness vs error?" Other than religion?

Where else do people "systematically use faith to eliminate error and determine what is likely true?"

So whining like a child constitutes an argument, eh?

If you really don't like it hear, why don't you run along sonny and hang out with the folks over at The Huffington Post and The Daily Beast who think more like you. Nobody is forcing you to come here, and NOBODY asked for nor cares about your views on religion. I'm surprised you whiny brats haven't all packed up and left already, it's not like you're adding anything substantive to this discussion, or most others on this site for that matter.

“My attitude toward progress has passed from antagonism to boredom. I have long ceased to argue with people who prefer Thursday to Wednesday because it is Thursday.” - G.K. Chesterton