Deflation 101

0 votes

This is not my post, but it so closely mirrors my thoughts on our economy right now that I'm going to post it here. For those of you that think the economy crashing is a conspiracy, stop reading here and go to the next ~when are we going to march~ post.

(shamelessly cut/pasted from another forum... the thread itself is a wonderful read. )

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message503140/pg1

Here's how I think it will all end. To wit:

Unfortunately, the glut of baby boomers is now moving into the years approaching retirement. The leading edge of the boomers already HAVE retired. While the baby boom generation spans many years, it is a fact that people who approach retirement become more conservative. They shun risk. They take measures to preserve capital. They absolutely CANNOT afford to "invest for the long run" because for them there IS NO long run. This changes the entire psychological make up of the market, as risk aversion soars and patience for volatility evaporates. We can see risk premiums soaring everywhere, from health care costs, to tighter lending standards, to bond insurance. The baby boomers, as they pass into a new retirement psychological state, have triggered an avelanche of systemic change. Long term yields are so low because boomers are increasingly holding their cash in safe places for the LONG RUN. The yield curve conundrum isn't at all perplexing, Mr Greenspan -- it's smart boomers battening the hatches. They realize that social security & corporate pensions cannot be trusted, PARTICULARLY if the economy heads south. The most alarming part is that they have just started. The 50 year "buy and hold" mentality instantly becomes invalid.

The greatest problem of all is that the wealth of many baby boomers is tied up in equities. Worse -- MUCH WORSE -- it is tied up in the SAME EQUITIES. The vast majority of boomers with 401k plans, personal investments, IRAs, etc own Intel and GE. They own the same S&P stocks. Everyone owns AAPL and GM. There are 77 million baby boomers, and the bulk of their equity holdings are in approximately 600 stocks -- the S&P 500, DJ 30, and the Nasdaq 100. This is a fantastic oversight that almost NO ONE recognizes or appreciated. The greatest crime of the century has been to encourage a glut of 77 millon people to own the SAME THING when they retire at the SAME TIME. This is a financial planning gaffe of massive and devestating proportions.

The systemic market risks lie in too many people being on the same side of the trade. That's effectively what causes a bubble to deflate. The tech bubble of the 90s deflated because EVERYONE had YHOO, AMZN, INTC, JNPR, ARBA. And everyone tried to sell those same small number of stocks at the same time.

So what we have now is a group of 77 million people who own the same 600 stocks, and who are becoming risk averse. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that if you have 77 million people who own 600 stocks and are attempting to preserve capital that you're going to have a problem of massive proportions.

The markets are down 10%+ already this year and the boomers are sweating. Their fingers are hovering above those sell buttons. It will take just take a tiny fraction of those anxious people to crack open markets. That in turn will create wave after wave of panic as the 77 million boomers try to preserve whatever they can of those 600 stocks. Because of their concentration in the same stocks, bids will crumble, indices will tumble, and selling will accelerate.

There has been an argument that boomer retirement selling will be spread over many years as they slowly and leisurely retire. That's in a fantasy world. In the real world, someone approaching retirement in a chaotic market takes the money before the other 77 million people take it. It's the prisoner's dillema (a Nash equilibrium problem) in full effect. As risk soars, individuals take the money while they can. As people take the money while they still can, risk soars. Who the hell cares about a 15% tax penalty if it means you avoid a 90% value meltdown in a long protracted crash?

You end up with 77 million sellers on 600 stocks, with no one on the other side of the trade. Will the baby boomer's kids be on the other side of the trade? No way in hell, since they're up to their eyeballs in debt. What about the Chinese? They're on the brink of their own bubble crash too. In effect, there is NO ONE on the other side of the trade. The earnings power that gave us stable bids in the 80s and 90s and managed to make the 87 and 97 "crashes" irrelevant no longer exists. Crashes now are serious because there is no guarantee that they will bounce back.

There is also one other major reason why this will be deep, fast, and hard: tech bubble. Many of the more wealthy boomers have painful memories of the tech bubble crash of 2000, and will not be nearly as willing to "ride it out" this time. They know first hand and in fresh memory that sometimes a market doesn't bounce back and that "buy and hold" is a fallacy. This is critical to understand as a psychological underpinning of the coming crisis.

I predict that over the coming few months we will continue to see a staggering and relentless crash in the markets. Also, a crash doesn't have to be a 1 day event. We will start seeing it get pounded into submission as boomers panic and smart money lets them panic. 77 million people on the same side of the trade with no one on the other side has never occurred before, but it soon will. And since even after a crash tens of millions of people will be severely underwater, there will be no bounce back, as rallies will be sold into. This will indeed be a crash that will result in a long, deep depression.

p.s. If you are smart and understand how Wall Street works, you will know precisely why this meltdown began on January 1. It is no coincidence. There is a very good reason why January 1 was the perfect day for it all to begin, and the reason completely validates and supports my theory above.

The boomers created this monster, and now they will kill it.

Currently the Federal Funds Rate is now 3 percent. These low rates have been killing the dollar. So what's a Federal Reserve Goon to do? Lower the rate further and vaporize the dollar, or raise and vaporize the entire housing industry as well as lending institutions.

Unfortunately for the believers of hyperinflationary jackpot scenario rates can't keep dropping forever like they have been. Once they hit near zero they will have to rise...or game over.

But if they rise game over.

So just game over.

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

Good thing the markets are global

I know Devon is going to call me a troll, but think about the ARGUMENT rather than the ad hom attacks.

The markets are global. I can buy stock in India, Asia, South America, Europe, wherever. Similarly, the rest of the world can buy US stock. Most of the rest of the world didn't have a baby boom. If US stocks start to slip, any rational investor overseas would dump money into the US market. Similarly, large institutions (university endowments, hedge funds, etc) are not affected by this AT ALL. If the US market slips then US stocks become great values -- they'd be undervalued relative to their actual worth (the future dividend stream). Big institutions would happily buy up stocks as soon as they started to slip, keeping prices high for the retiring baby boomers.

The market is a lot more complex than just individuals buying.

I'm sure there's some conspiracy theory to "rebut" this, but think it through -- the markets are global and large institutions have nothing to do with baby boomers.

Baby Boom

The rest of the world (the western world anyway..) DID have a baby boom, around the same time we did! (ie, after the 2nd world war!). The baby bust came when many of the same nations embraced birth control and abortion!

Also, although the market is worldwide, any economic trouble in the US (ie, recession) will effect the rest of the world since we are a large market for other countries exports.

Furthermore, in a deflationary scenario other countries would be less likely to buy US stocks, because even if stock prices were slipping, the value of the dollar would be heading up, which is what the stocks are priced in. In an inflationary scenario (or hyper-inflation) you'd get everyone overseas coming in for the firesale on US stocks.

Where the article goes wrong is in its thesis that all the boomers will just pull out of the stock market. This is unlikely, especially with low interest rates. Even if they get nervous, where will they put their money?

Not a troller at all.

As I tried to point out, this was merely an article I found that summed up the baby boomer issue in a manner that I completely agreed with. As you well know, that is just a little part of the picture as the article doesn't take into consideration the world market at all. So I completely agree with you Slapshot... it's a lot bigger than the article's focus.

Where you and I disagree is our economy's effect on the world market... and time will tell that story soon enough, I'm afraid.

~Live life to its fullest, with an open heart, open arms and most important... an open mind~

Not a conspiracy? Not a free market!

You are describing the natural mechanism of a free market, which we don't have. Yes the market has a mind of its own due to emotional factors and social moods, but it is being jerked around like a yo-yo by the money trust. Just look at what Warren Buffet did to the market today. What a joke! One guy says he's going to reinsure municipal bonds and the market goes through the roof--it will come right back down tomorrow! The Fed created the crash in 1929, and it is going to create the one in 2008, and YES IT IS A CONSPIRACY. More correctly, it is a cartel, a cabal, a gang of thieves. They are going to ruin a lot of elderly people and then sweep up the stocks at fire sale prices. They are heartless beasts.

The Buffet deal was pretty, wasn't it?

And all he wants is 50% interest ... muhahaha.

~Live life to its fullest, with an open heart, open arms and most important... an open mind~

Interesting but

The article ignores the issue of money supply. The real issue for us is not Wall Street. It is the currency itself. The article also seems to ignore the fact that the Fed has another trick up its sleeve besides manipulating interest rates - it prints money to monetize the debt. And it is going to be doing a LOT of that else the government is going to default.

It will be printing money to pay government debts, programmatic costs, and for bank bail outs. So dollar supply will be increasing as government revenue crashes. Additionally, our mounting debt and rising inflation is driving the rest of the world out of dollars. As other countries dump their dollars, the inflation rate climbs from the new supply. The more the inflation rate climbs, the more anxious people are to dump dollars, further fueling inflation. Wheh inflation reaches a high enough level, there will be a mad rush for the door, flooding the market with dollars and destroying our economy.

I'm betting on hyper inflation.

I'm betting on both

I wasn't really trying to ignore the issue of the dollar... I had found this post on another forum and I thought that it summed up the issue of the baby boomers quite well. That is of course just one piece of the puzzle, as you are well aware.

For the big picture, my bet is on either hyperinflation to depession, or straight to depression. Whichever way we get there, it' still going to suck.

I do agree with you that hyperinflation is the safer bet.

~Live life to its fullest, with an open heart, open arms and most important... an open mind~

Well, you certainly cheered me up there

Great article. Scary.

I sold all the equities I could last month and put the $$ in gold.

Yeah, I know, but as a hedge.....

All my other is locked up in 401, Ira, etc, so I haven't moved it yet. That does NOT make me happy.

BTW, My age = 60.

similar here, gold as a hedge, dumped out of equities

where I could, but not all. I like having some mining and agricultural stocks. The 401K situation really sucks with so few choices in mine. I've put most of that into whatever international equity funds they offer, out of bonds and dollar cash. Still, wish I could get out of it. Age: 52.

Yeah, I got reamed on the tech bust

cause I was in the wilderness (literally) for a year in 1999/2000 and was not there to defend my self. Since then, satellite and improved comm. in the islands has helped. (witness my ability to post here)

Hope I don't get reamed again.

sorry to hear that happened to you, but I figure you enjoyed

the wilderness! Yep, communications has certainly changed in the last 8 years, so the tech revolution was real, just many of the companies weren't as you found out.

I had essentially no investments back then save a small 401k and have worked hard to build up some assets since then. I had the usual American lifestyle of spending and not saving. Big mistake as I look back on my life. To think that back during dot.com bust you could buy an ounce of gold for $250.

Good luck to both of us!

not quite yet....

I figure when the Dow hits about 8,000 will be the opportunity of a lifetime, that is, if I can hold onto some assets and not get wiped out with the rest.

just starting the baby boom retirement era

The baby boom was from 1946 to 1964. The current average retirement age is 62 in the US. If we go off of these numbers we can see that this is the first year that the baby boomers will retire. The stock market in my opinion has not felt the effect. I think it adds to the obvious problems already in the market.

What you got to look at it is most baby boomers are still buying! Since most of them know they are going to retire soon they are puting lots in the market. In the next 5 years you will see this change! As the percentage of people selling increasing at very large amounts and those buying decreasing it will get bad.

the baby boomers are going to put real pressure on the

broken federal treasury as every year another large piece of the retiree pie starts collecting entitlement payments. No way government will permit deflation under those circumstances as that would mean the value of each of those paid out dollars is higher. Nope, they will print and print and print and print so that $22,000 a year you get will have the purchasing power of half that. That is their only salvation.

things that go .... in the night.

scary.

actually, not really true

rates can continue to be halved forever. Look at what the Japanese banks have done. If you lower to 1 percent, you can go to 0.75 percent...that's a 25% and 25 basis point drop, etc, etc. At 0.50, you can go to 0.25 and from there to 0.12.

A stock market crash does not necessarily entail a 1929 type deflation at all. A weak dollar, debt load and printing of more money will mean increasing prices for commodities and hard assets even while speculative investments collapse. Stagflation or even hyper-stagflation of the type the 1970's had. Low wages, bad stock market, high commodity prices, lower standard of living.

In fact, you can use the example of the dot.com bust to show how one crash can be used to inflate some other sector. Why wouldn't they be able to rotate one bubble to another?

Lastly, and a big deal, is that the world is witnessing a revolution in the global economy unlike anything related to earlier American deflationary events. The Chinese, Indians, Arabs and others have huge budget surpluses, huge stockpiles of dollars and other currencies, productive economies, industrialization, boom times. We do not lead the world anymore. So, prices for goods around the world will continue to increase even as we can buy less of them.

Until I start seeing more real data indicating a general deflation, I will stick with an inflationary or stagflationary viewpoint.

Well

This isn't my post, but a cut/paste from the link I posted. To me it's a pretty good analysis of the baby-boomer issue. What the origional poster did NOT do is put it in the framework of the actual world economy. So it's merely a part of the overall picture, but a part of it that I though he highlighted rather well.

Deflation and inflation relate to the change in the value of the dollar relative to goods, whereas depression is a severe retraction in GDP (gross domestic product) with high unemployment and low wages. Recession is a mild form of a depression, with 2 quarters of declining GDP. Stagflation is a stagnant/no growth economy coupled with higher prices/dropping dollar (inflation). Mild stagflation is what we have been in the last couple of months, but we're moving quickly towards a recessionary-inflation period. Whether we go hyper-inflationary before collapsing into a depression, or go straight into a depression after a major stock market crash is not known for sure since the controllers can screw with the control knobs, and war is an unknown factor. It looks like a major depression is more likely than hyper-inflationary collapse at the moment.

~Live life to its fullest, with an open heart, open arms and most important... an open mind~

So, given this response and the comment you replyed to,

basically, US equities will be hammered, then bought up by foreigners.

correct?

Not exactly.

Look at the foreign markets... they have invested very heavily into American dollars. As a larger part of the picture, the debasing of the dollar is going to have a global impact... already you see foreign markets dumping gold and silver... you also see them attempting American real purchases (banks, real estate) now. It's not going to behoove them holding onto dollars any more... they're becoming too unstable. They need to get them back here... a glut of dollars here isn't going to be pretty. Tie that into the eventual decoupling of the dollar from middle-eastern oil, the collapse of 3 (at once) bubbles, 500 Trillion dollars worth of derivatives that are unwinding as we speak, the baby boomer influence on an already shaky market and you've got the beginnings of the perfect $hitstorm for not only our economy, but the world economy.

~Live life to its fullest, with an open heart, open arms and most important... an open mind~

As usual your economic analysis

are very informative because you look under the surface and connect the dots. I have been thinking of taking the money and running, taxes or not on 401K because they are so restrictive of what you can invest in-------so I am sure others are wondering the same thing, we will see.

Your theory makes sense

If this is the case, what is a 20something with decent earnings but credit card/student loan/mortgage debt to do? How do we "ride it out" or use it to get ahead?

--------------------------------------------------------
"No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal
rights of another, and this is all from which the laws ought to restrain him." --Thomas Jefferson

--------------------------------------------------------
Libertas, Pax, Prosperitas

I second that bump

Very good find. Unfortunately will probably be a reality all too soon.

A single

self-bump, then I'll let it sink into the ocean of ~when to march~ posts... ;(

~Live life to its fullest, with an open heart, open arms and most important... an open mind~

If I bump your bump, does that count as 2...

self bumps? ;-)

Nice analysis...I can see why you reposted it. Thanks!

I guess

if I say thanks, then it isn't technically a self-bump... ~innocent look~

~Live life to its fullest, with an open heart, open arms and most important... an open mind~