0 votes

The Metaphysics of Evolution

The Metaphysics of Evolution
by Fred Reed, an agnostic, posted at lewrockwell.com

http://www.lewrockwell.com/reed/reed59.html
I was probably in college when I found myself asking what seemed to me straightforward questions about the chemical origin of life. In particular:

(1) Life was said to have begun by chemical inadvertence in the early seas. Did we, I wondered, really know of what those early seas consisted? Know, not suspect, hope, theorize, divine, speculate, or really, really wish.

The answer was, and is, "no." We have no dried residue, no remaining pools, and the science of planetogenesis isn't nearly good enough to provide a quantitative analysis.

(2) Had the creation of a living cell been replicated in the laboratory? No, it hadn't, and hasn't. (Note 1)

(3) Did we know what conditions were necessary for a cell to come about? No, we didn't, and don't.

(4) Could it be shown to be mathematically probable that a cell would form, given any soup whatever? No, it couldn't, and can't. (At least not without cooking the assumptions.) (Note 2)

Well, I thought, sophomore chemistry major that I then was: If we don't know what conditions existed, or what conditions are necessary, and can't reproduce the event in the laboratory, and can't show it to be statistically probable – why are we so very sure that it happened? Would you hang a man on such evidence?



Trending on the Web

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

Since Rockwell is often posted here

I found that article to be interesting. Thanks for posting.

Previously known as DCALIFANO

Previously known as DCALIFANO

Yeah, evolution is ridiculous!

A man somewhere in the sky snapping his fingers and presto-chango, poof!, man is created. Now THAT really makes sense.

Thank you poster for distracting and dividing our group. Was it intentional?

--------
We don't know how to mind our own business
'Cause the whole worlds got to be just like us
Now we are fighting a war over there
No matter who's the winner
We can't pay the cost
-Steppenwolf 1969

'Cause there's a monster on the loose

Interesting....

A non-RP topic... And a scientific one at that:
I will answer questions briefly ('cause no one wants to read a giant post) as you delineated them.

The topic being discussed is Abiogenesis.

1) We don't 'know'. But by that standard, we don't 'know' anything. I don't 'know' that you are a conscious human being. I make the assumption. You also don't 'know' that you were alive yesterday, despite all the overwhelming evidence that supports that conclusion. You are Moving the goalposts when you talk about knowledge.

2) A living cell is so complex and so small that it took us the whole of human history minus 400 years to even notice them. Of course we can't make them in the lab. They are too small and have too many moving parts that we don't yet understand.

3) See point one. We don't know the actual conditions. But we know what the conditions were roughly. We know there had to be liquid water. We know that the had to be auto-catalytic sets of molecules. Here is a hypothesis that uses the idea.
So again. We don't know. But we don't know nothing.

4) Actually yes it can. That's the kind of question for which you have to blend statistics and chemistry. I'm not certain that the work is definitively complete (and probably never will be). But that's why experimentation is important.

>>...can't show it to be statistically probable
It doesn't have to be probable. It only has to be possible. When you have billions of years to wait, events with minuscule odds might be common-place. This is a theorem of statistics called the Law of Large Numbers.

If you think you can show me as complete a wiki-list supporting testable principles of Intelligent Design (or whatever the creationist crowd calls themselves these days), I will concede that you actually have a scientific theory.
But you can't.
Because ID isn't science.

Let me ask the question another way...
Can ID explain why we have drug-resistant bacteria? Or why humans favor kin over strangers, and ants kill themselves for the sake of the hive?
Can cancer treatments be developed based on the teachings of ID?

The burden of proof is on you. Rather than than complaining about gaps in knowledge, why can't creationists produce any of their own and put science on the defensive?
Oh wait... It's been tried for decades.

I would argue that not only an acceptance of, but an understanding of the mechanisms of Evolution is essential for understanding a Libertarian philosophy. Because until you know why you are right, it's hard to tell other people (Communists, Neo-cons, etc) why they are wrong.
Humans are animals. With all the same weaknesses, and more capacity for mischief. Government ought to be structured to account for that fact.

More, info? email me.

Yes!

Your last 2 paragraphs are "spot on". Very insightful and I so wish folks would read and atempt to understand.

The pattern of this entire thread is quite amazing. And to think we all support Dr. Paul!

h-daddy

Thx

Thx! I read the whole thread as well (after posting).

Here are some worthwhile books on this topic: (all links are Amazon)
For abiogenesis and the origins of life:
Stuart Kauffman - Investigations

Evolutionary underpinnings of human mind and society:
Steven Pinker - The Blank Slate (a must read for anyone)
Steven Pinker - How the Mind Works

Ignore history at your own peril:
Milton Mayer - They Thought They Were Free: The Germans 1933 - 1945
If you want to see what else I've read, you can browse my shelfari page. I love getting reading recommendations this way.

Thanks for the book recs

I'll check my library. Good to know there are a few sane people left on DP.

I'll continue to think about how your evolution/libertarian connection can advance the cause in a practical sense.

h-daddy

You are talking about Micro

That is diffrent than macro

Hey Freaky Religious Nuts....

How can anyone deny the fact that microbiological life evolves on such a short time scale that you can sit at the microscope and WATCH it happen? How do bacteria develop resistance to antibiotics? Why must there be some god entity running everything? Why do we insist on having somone else be in control?? Statism hidden as godism....eeeeek

Dave

Teaching Flying...and talking Ron Paul...and Liberty!

Teaching Flying...and talking Ron Paul...and Liberty!

Just because some of us BELIEVE in an Intelligent Being

Many refer to as GOD, does not mean that we should be called FREAKY RELIGIOUS NUTS. I really don't appreciate that comment.

Previously known as DCALIFANO

Previously known as DCALIFANO

Agreed. Albert Einstein

wrote some fine essays about the role of religion in society and in science.

h-daddy

OOOOOOhhhhhhhhhh

The Niribu are are coming. That explains the alien looking police uniforms. Bet they don't dodge AR15 bullets. So this is the plan to bring all the nations together by making everyone afraid of aliens. We haven't played Cowboys and Niribus yet. LOL Americans will not fall for this garbage. So the satellite that the vatican put up is that to brodcast the image of the mighty Niribu coming closer and closer. Then having the aliens come kill 90% of the population. They better bring their lunch bucko! So much for the famine Ill be having Niribu steaks HEHEHEHE

WILLINGLY IGNORANT


2Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2Chronicles 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

I wish to thank everyone for their delightful

posts on this subject. My take is a bit different. I believe in a creator-source which forms a creator-god to oversee each seperate 15 dimensional universe. Our consciousness is aware on the third dimensional level of this particular universe. DNA is related to dimensions. Since we are functioning in this third dimensional reality, we humans have three strands of DNA, not two. Science has not recognized this fact but has anybody heard of junk DNA? Anyway, as we progress up the spiritual ladder to higher and higher dimensions, we literally become lighter and lighter until we have no need for bodies as we know them. We become more and more conscious, more god-like. This is a clue to the saying 'we were made in our maker's image.' You beget or replicate what you are. One thing I have marvelled over in our universe, is the continual drive for all matter to achieve a balanced state. You can observe it in the beautiful pictures of the planets, stars, galaxies, and galaxy clusters, as well as right here on Mother Earth. I call this a universal principle, because only when we violate a universal law do we pay a price. It's like a wakeup call for us to get back in step again. Another, is that all substance, energy and thought has intelligence. I consider it divine intelligence. Now as far as evolution is concerned, I find no problem with life evolving. Actually, I believe that is the game plan for all life. That is to continually expand one's own consciousness back to source. It is my understanding that our planet, small as she is, is very unique in this universe, in that she has life forms from near and far away galaxies in all directions. This could explain why the lack of evolution stages in many species? I also believe that the earth is hollow (like an empty egg shell) with openings in both poles, and a central sun in the middle (aora borealis?). Call me wrong, but can anyone find me photographic evidence to the contrary? Any good satellite shots? Further more, I don't agree with those classical renditions of atoms with their electrons spinning at all kinds of angles to the base axis. Unless there are different laws at work here, the atoms would appear like miniture solar or spiral galaxy systems, whereby centrifical forces dictate a propensity out from the equatorial (birth) belt. All in all, our universe is a majestic pallet, rich with wisdom and mystery. Enjoy your journey!

God will work with you but not for you - Walter Russell

"Be wary of those who know the truth. Align yourself with those who are questing for the truth." L. Gardner

Ehyeh is the True God

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPJx9XV7cGI

"Walls are stronger than the men that defend them."

Ghengis Khan

I know that everyone will listen because...

I am a DhP philosowiser, so I've already figured it out so you don't need to think for yourself, and we don't allow free thinkers here anyway. (But please laugh at my parody and rebuttal of the post by katjust below.)

First of all, there are many competing evolutionary theories because not one of them is any more believable than the others.

Second, most reputable scientists agree that life on Earth has evolved just like most reputable media professionals believe that Ron Paul should not be running for president.

Third, the Creator of the Universe, Jesus Christ, has developed a great argument as to why reality and the Biblical creation account are compatible, and that the God who created the universe is actually preferable for Christians to the god of modern man's imagination. Evolutionists are WAY too threatened by intelligent questions and competing viewpoints. Check my website to perform a fresh investigation of Jesus' credentials. http://Jesus4King.org You will be surprised!

Fourth, It is bogus to claim that the Biblical creation account of the origin of life is any less possible than the molecules-to-man theory. All that Christians have to do is believe that God created life like He says He did; not that dozens of complex parts, each of which must perform its unique function in concert with all of the others in order for a single cell to live, accidentally started working together (the way they were designed to) and ended up producing male and female and thousands of totally unusual creatures. That is why it is ridiculous to claim that life exists without first being created.

LOL The R3VOLUTION is about

all of us being able to use our 1st amendment right. Its called freedom of speech. and it has everything to do with this movement. Free! I'm already free.

John 8:31-36

Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free ."

33 They answered Him,"We are Abraham's descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, 'You will be made free '?"

34 Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free , you shall be free indeed.

Sorry I'm flagging this. Who cares about your religion.

RP is deeply religious.
He doesn't think he can force it on you.
The re3olution isn't about religion, bapitist, hindu, jewish, etc.,
It's about you being free to follow your heart.

So stop this nonsense!!!! Or you will not be free!!!

***************************************************
http://youtube.com/watch?v=U9ukh_sDj6M
Watch and feel the power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

***************************************************
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sw6zhIiGCvg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrHmwiMgE74
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01kcqKd2Tag
Watch and feel the power!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fooohhhhhhwwwwwwwwyyyyyyyyy

Gen 1:1-2

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

Maybe this is where your seas come from. LOL

Matt 16:4

1 Then the Pharisees and Sadducees came, and testing Him asked that He would show them a sign from heaven.
2 He answered and said to them, "When it is evening you say, 'It will be fair weather, for the sky is red';
3 and in the morning, 'It will be foul weather today, for the sky is red and threatening.' Hypocrites! You know how to discern the face of the sky, but you cannot discern the signs of the times.
4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah." And He left them and departed.

Also Darwin did not believe they come from rocks. He believed they come from worms. However there is a worm in the story of Jonah. Guess where it came from.

Jonah 4:5-8

5 So Jonah went out of the city and sat on the east side of the city. There he made himself a shelter and sat under it in the shade, till he might see what would become of the city.
6 And the LORD God prepared a plant and made it come up over Jonah , that it might be shade for his head to deliver him from his misery. So Jonah was very grateful for the plant.
7 But as morning dawned the next day God prepared a worm, and it so damaged the plant that it withered.
8 And it happened, when the sun arose, that God prepared a vehement east wind; and the sun beat on Jonah's head, so that he grew faint. Then he wished death for himself, and said,"It is better for me to die than to live."

Remember it is my right to believe GOD is in charge and just

might not like people that preach about evilution ! RP is wit us believers! lollollol

I don't believe in either

I don't believe in either evolution or creation in the biblical sense. I think both sides arguements against the other are accurate.

It's called intervention.

http://www.lloydpye.com/

"But, indeed, no private person has a right to complain, by suit in court, on the ground of a breach of the Constitution. The Constitution it is true, is a compact, but he is not a party to it."

Metaphysics of the REvolution

1.) Talk about crap that has nothing to do with American Liberty nor has anything to do with the election of Ron Paul.

2.) Make sure the crap questions and comments written about this crap are begging the question or contain the illusion of popular agreement or especially the illusion of authority.

3.) Think these topics actually matter and let America fade into Fascism and Communist-style social engineering while trying to divide those who support freedom and the "Enlightenment" because it is the right thing to do.

Nice.

"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."--Mark Twain

I come from GOD! you come from a rock?

the chemical slurry raining on the rocks? lol lol lol I got a bridge to sell ya!
Google Dr. Kent Hovind age of the earth! life changing videos!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Darwin started eugenics and it is the basis for marksism,socialism,communism,FASCISM! without evolution they have no reason of being! only 2 ways to look @ it( GOD MADE THE EARTH a few thousand years ago and we walked with dinosaures )or (we crawled out of primotial slime and became ameabas,paramesiums then a fish then a monkey then a caveman then a human billions and billions of years ago! ) you are not serious are you ?,evil-ution is not even have one single shred of evidence! Dr hovind will pay 250,000$ for any I repeat any proof 250,000$ PS the government threw him in jail for 100 years for tax evasion even thought he had tax excempt status for a religious organization! HERE FOLKS IS THE TRUE UNDERDOG no pun intended!
I LOVE Dr. Kent Hovind I will be forever grateful!!

http://www.youtube.com/wa...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qkJUh3s7kc

"But, indeed, no private person has a right to complain, by suit in court, on the ground of a breach of the Constitution. The Constitution it is true, is a compact, but he is not a party to it."

this is really god, thank

this is really god, thank you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZR022_GbzU

I'd like you to "prove" that any theory

of evolution is false.

h-daddy

I know that no one will listen but...

I am a PhD philosophy student, and so I have read and heard these arguments ad nauseum.

First of all, there are many competing evolutionary theories, and many theorists who disagree about the specifics. So, we need to stop pretending like there is one theory of evolution.

Second, most reputable scientists agree that life on Earth has evolved (they just disagree about the means)

Third, Philospher of Biology Elliot Sober has developed a great argument as to why God and Evolution are compatible, and that a God who guided evolution is actually preferable for Christians to the God of creationism. Christians are WAY too threatened by evolution. Dawkins seems to me to be wrong, evolution is compatible with a Christian God (and I say this being an atheist).

Fourth, It is bogus to claim that evolutionary theory is committed to any sort of origin to life. All that any evolutionary theory has to do is assume that there was life at some point in the past, and show that it evolved into what we have today. That is why it is ridiculous to claim that evolutionary theory is incompatible with a God. An evolutionist could just as easily claim that God created the first life as that it came about spontaneously for no reason.

My Thoughts As Well

...good post. thanks.

fonta

Agree!

I have never felt that religion and science were incompatible.

h-daddy

I can prove elolution is bull!

any one still care?

The Five Crises in

The Five Crises in Evolutionary Theory
Dr. Ray Bohlin
http://www.origins.org/articles/bohlinray_5crises.html

The Case of the Missing Mechanism
The Origin of Life
The Inability to Account for Complex Adaptations
The Bankruptcy of the Blind Watchmaker Hypothesis
The Prevalence of Stasis over Mutability

What is the use of their unceasing mutations if they do not change? In sum, the mutations of bacteria and viruses are merely hereditary fluctuations around a median position; a swing to the right, a swing to the left, but no final evolutionary effect.