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Why is there so much anti-capitalist sentiment on Daily Paul?

Ron Paul's message is entirely about free markets. So why is there so much anti-capitalist sentiment on Daily Paul? It seems the discussion on this forum is dominated by socialist tinged populism and conspiracy theories. People on this forum should read more F. A. Hayek and Murray Rothbard and listen to less Alex Jones. Logically formed arguments based on principle are sorely lacking. When I started supporting Ron Paul about a year ago I was hopeful that we might be entering a new age of reason. I now realize that many of the people that support Dr. Paul are victims of the same knee jerk reactionary sports fan attitude that afflicts the majority of republicans and democrats. Let the accusations of "troll" fly. That won't change the fact that this movement has turned into group think populism. Many of you think that you are different from the majority but, a black sheep is still a sheep.

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How about a new amendment? I'm serious!

The very first amendment to the Constitution refers to the separation of Church and State, correct? Here's my proposal for the 28th amendment, separation of corporation and State. No business in Washington and no Washington in business. What say you?

You are confusing...

You are confusing free market capitalism and corporatism. People here would love free market capitalism...their gripe is with corporatism...which in this country is fed to us as capitalism. People know something is not right..but are unsure what it is. Since the media and everything else calls the corporatism that we have capitalism...people who may not discern the difference bash 'capitalism'.

Corporatism is controlled/manipulated market capitalism and is closely related to fascism. In fact as Ron Paul has stated...we have a soft form of fascism...a devious fascism with a soft outer shell.

Fascism as a political system is at its basic level just the merger of state and industry. Hitler merged industry into the state. In our case...industry has slowly merged the state into its control...hence corporatism.
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Merriam-Webster's Collegiate

Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary) has to say: "capitalism (1877) : an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market".

So the important thing is PRIVATE OWNERSHIP. Capitalism doesn't mean that we use capital, it is a system (Karl Marx coined the word) where the means of production IS PRIVATELY OWNED with 100% PRIVATE DECISION MAKING. It has nothing to do with capital as is it just telling us that who owns the capital. Anyway capitalism doesn't exist anymore (actually it is hardly existed ever), what we have is only different stages and styles of socialism. Mises teach us, that there is no middle way, it is either freedom/capitalism or socialism. Capitalism is individualism, liberty and the rule of law (established on moral principles, a law which only corrects injuries among people and never cause injuries to people which don't injure other people). Capitalism rejects force and violence because it isn't compatible with private property. Private property is the core the soul of capitalism. And property is either private or no property at all. There is no such thing as public property, there is only property owned by an individual or objects (not property) not owned at all. Property is ONLY private, even the word "public property" is a nonsense. There can be shared property, but that is also private, shared by private individuals defined by contract between them. There is only two kind of society, contract society and status society. Capitalism is contract society. Everything is defined by contract, nothing by status. The only principles is the principles of liberty. There is no higher thing, there is only people combining their energy with other people in order to survive and move forward. And this should be 100% voluntary. Read Human Action from Mises, almost all the answers are there.

Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.

I agree with this post

A lot of people seem to be socialist. I remember when the blimp idea came out, a lot of people were mad because they were using a for profit enterprise to "take advantage of the volunteers". I personally hope that a lot of people make a profit by riding the Ron Paul wave, because it benefits everyone and it supports the movement. Personally, I think I'm going to start a freedom themed website to try to make a few bucks while educating people about liberty.

I used to listen to Alex Jones but then I started reading Rothbard and realized that this massive conspiracy theory was a bit outrageous. My view now is that the "elites" want world government because they sincerely believe in statism, not because they are evil and want to cause misery.

Final word: read Rothbard and learn why limited government is too much government.

And sadly the best way to do that is

from the inside.

I hadn't noticed

I didn't think there were that many anti-capitalist posters here. Not that I have noticed anyway.

"What does conservatism today stand for? It stands for war. It stands for power. It stands for spying, jailing without trial, torture, counterfeiting without limit, and lying from morning to night."

Lew Rockwell

There Aren't

At least, there are fewer than on any other candidate's board. Noelle is one, although posing as a "critic" of "non-capitalists" (whoever they are), he/she is actually a provocateur with (apparently) no genuine thought at all.

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"Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it." -- Joseph Goebbels

I don't believe in restricting any American Corp. the right to

Own American land for its Corp. use.

Restricting how much money it makes.

Who it does business with (eccept Governments including USA)

However I am for restricting a few things.

Noone from any other country or governing body should own American soil.

No government should be able to enter into business with any American Corp. Including US government.

All American Corp should have to always have American citizens own 51% of all American Corp.

Just my 2 cents

Ya know

when Noelle infiltrates, I just leave.

A shape-shifter, for sure.

And this board has become loaded with them.

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"Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it." -- Joseph Goebbels

Capitalism is Not a Good Term

Capitalism is not a precise term. Everybody uses capital. The Communists use capital. Rather, we should diferentiate between monopolistic capitalism and free market capitalism.

Much of the discussion refers to corporatism. This is where special interests have used the power of government to insure a monopolistic advantage for them. To accomplish this, they buy our politicians.

A good example of this is the current situation with oil. We have plenty of oil in this country, and offshore. That oil has been locked up, either by the courts, or by legislation. The legislation is supposedly responding to environmental concerns. In truth, much of the environmental movement has been underwritten by the big oil companies. At the same time, the big oil companies continue to provide politicians with campaign contributions, as well as employment or other benefits when they retire, or are voted out of office.

All the while, our politicians and their lackies in the Old Media continue the lie that: 1) oil is rare, and 2) we are running out of oil. Nothing could be further from the truth. There is plenty of oil. The big oil companies have used government to create a monopoly (government is always involved when there is a monopoly).

To continue in this vein, the Administration is pressuring the Iraqi government into passing the New Oil Bill, which will turn over 91% of Iraq's oil to the big oil companies. So now, our politicians use our military to steal oil from another country, and turn this oil over to private interests. This is NOT the free market! This is corporatism. This is what happens when government is allowed to operate outside of Constitutionally authorized areas.

The Department of Energy exists to guarantee high prices for the big oil companies. It has never given us a single barrel of oil. It is just one of many unconstitutional government agencies. It needs to be abolished.

Yes

People just use buzzwords to provoke, and wouldn't know capitalism if it came up and bit them on the ass. The dumbing down of this board is frightening.

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"Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it." -- Joseph Goebbels

listen bud

first of all,,,,in my opinion alex jones is one of the greatest patriots i know....and also folks,,,he is proud new papa this week....but even if you dont care to listen to him or watch his documentaries,,,you are WAY off base with your claims of anti capitalism,,,,i mean really, do you really think we dont want to live in prosperous country,,,the problem is ,,,its not our country anymore,,,,the fed is owned by private bankers,,,the irs is their strongarm collection agency...now dont believe me or alex but for f---k sake listen to ben bernankes report given on thursday or last week.......were SCREWED DUDE,,,,,,do a little more research before you call any of us conspiracy truthers.........i say we are truthers period.....

"Private bankers"

What is up with so many people here talking about the Fed being a "private bank" as if it's some kind of revelation? Doesn't everybody learn this trivia in school? It's common knowledge isn't it?

And what is so relevant about it being a technically private bank? Would it be better if it was a government owned bank?

It is a revelation

Don't try to insinuate that this is common knowledge as if it was taught in any school anywhere. Please don't give us the impression that you understand the significance of the FED because obviously you don't.
GATA Be in to Win

Put this in your crack pipe and smoke it Noelle...

Because the current rock you have in there is clouding your brain. The very name of the organization of which you speak implies otherwise. Lets print out the whole thing shall we (instead of the abbreviation you used: "Fed", which had you not used the abbreviation would have thoroughly destroyed your point)?

FEDERAL RESERVE.

The very name itself is an oxymoron in both parts. A.) It isn't federal, and B.) there are no reserves. If this organization wasn't deliberately named this way to pull the wool over the eyes of the American people then you are naive at best and a collaborator in the destruction of this great Republic at worst, take your pick.

Please name for me one textbook (name, date published, publisher and page number) that is in, or has been in common use in an economics or any other class in a public school, grades 1-12, that includes the information that the federal reserve is a private banking cartel which you say is taught in school. The words that come from a teachers mouth do not count for they can't be verified. Plus I doubt that 1 in 10 teaches know what you claim to be public knowledge.

My personal experiences with my friends tells otherwise as well. Just so you know, my friends at work are no slouches. We repair, maintain and operate the most advanced semi-conductor manufacturing equipment and processes in the world. My friends are totally shocked when I inform them that the federal reserve is neither federal nor does it have any reserves. These are not stupid people. Many of them have engineering degrees. I'm sorry to inform you Noelle that the evidence points to the contrary. I will say this on your behalf though (and I had to struggle to find one good thing to say about you), you make an excellent sounding board for me to get my message across. : )

Sincerely,

Paul C. Hanson

actually it was

im over fifty years old, attended and graduated with new york state regents diploma,,,whoop di doo and yet i never NEVER learned what was in the constitution , the bill of rights or that the fed was anything other than our government owned agency....and you know what else,,,,none of my five kids knew till i told them,,,and virtually none of my friends or acquaintances knew till i told them,,,hell half of them thought i was making it up,,,,alex jones woke me up last summer and i took his advice and began to research in ernest on my own,,,,,,

Apparently everyone doesn't.

Apparently everyone doesn't. This is why Ron Paul has to spend so much time explaining it, and explaining why it's bad. You have to educate the public, who have been kept ignorant. Half the people on this board are startled by criticism of the Fed, calling it "conspiracy theory," lol.

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"Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it." -- Joseph Goebbels

Well

There is a lot of conspiracy theories surrounding it. Like the claim that the Fed is accumulating huge profits for itself. It's not operating to make a profit. Salaries are paid, and that's it. Everything else gets turned back in to the Treasury.

Everything returned to the US treasury is called a PROFIT!!!

Noelle, are you kidding me. The FED is one of the most PROFITABLE entities. You are right, salaries are paid and money is returned to the Treasury, but what you forgot to mention is that member banks also receive a cut of the profit. Odd how Citigroup can take such huge bets, be wrong and then borrow free money from the FED to bail itself out, and then collect part of the profits from that whole scenario. Yet that is free market capitalism? That is moronic. I can't buy a million dollar home, then create my own money, pay my loan back and turn a profit. This system is idiotic. Further, a Princeton grad looked to figure out and debunk the conspiracy that the FED is owned by private elites, and the only thing he found out was that 65% of the FED was owned by Member Banks who are required to by shares in the FED. He could not find the other 35% ownership in the FED. Further, Ron Paul who sits on the Bankinga and Advisory Committee cannot attend, audit or listen to recordings of the FOMC proceedings. Nor, has the Gold the FED is supposedly holding ever been audited. So, what gives everyone so much confidence our FED system is working? Lets turn to their metric by which they should be judged the value of the dollar. The FED is a board that manages the value of its shares, their shares are US dollars. The FED started in 1913. The value of a dollar was tied to gold in 1912 at 21$ an ounce in Gold. Since then almost 100 years, Gold is now worth 900$ an ounce and the dollar is not tied to Gold. So, the value of the dollar measured in Gold is now worth .04 cents. So, if you would have invested solely in dollars in 1912 you would have lost almost all of your money. Seems like a great organization. WAKE UP!!! These aren't conspiracy theories they are simple facts. Read a few books.

No

Private stockholders are guaranteed a specific percentage on their capital.

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Freedom - Peace - Prosperity

Ah, That's Where You're Misinformed

The private members of the Fed DO make money, and tons of it every day. I would suggest you read some (and I know this must sound radical to an alleged Paul supporter) Ron Paul on the subject.

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"Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it." -- Joseph Goebbels

Your Own Reference Contradicts You

Good Lord, is that where you're getting your "information?" Even the person running that website acknowledges (as we all must) that the Federal Reserve members are indeed privately-owned, and that they charge interest for "creating" our money supply. The fact that the directors are "publicly-appointed" (by the President from the members' list of approved candidates) only serves to prove that they are making money off their monopolistic hold over the nation's currency. If there were truly an alternative currency, no one, BUT NO ONE (and certainly not a free and accountable Congress) would obtain money from the Fed-- there's a built-in interest charge the day its created. You seriously need to do some reading, and until you do you need to stop commenting (let alone criticizing others) on a subject which you clearly know nothing about.

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"Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it." -- Joseph Goebbels

Hmm

"Hypothesis: Through fractional reserve banking and double-entry accounting, banks are able to create new money with the stroke of a pen (or a computer keystroke). The money they lend costs them nothing to produce, yet they charge interest on it.

Facts: The banking system is indeed able to create money with a mere computer keystroke. However, a bank's ability to create money is tied directly to the amount of reserves customers have deposited there. A bank must pay a competitive interest rate on those deposits to keep them from leaving to other banks. This interest expense alone is a substantial portion of a bank's operating costs and is de facto proof a bank cannot costlessly create money."

With de facto reserve requirements nearly at 0%, this argument is a joke on its face. Plus take a look at how much interest banks actually pay on deposits these days, it is incredibly low.

Also, the treasuries the fed buys can be purchased by newly minted federal reserve cash. I'd hardly call this a fair set up for folks who have to earn their cash through work.

That site looks like a lot of assertions, not so thoroughly supported.

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Freedom - Peace - Prosperity

what are you?

You seem to be protecting there existence. We and I might add Ron Paul wants them removed for good, do you get the drift sonny boy.

GATA Be in to Win

How about this?

Whether the Federal Reserve System was created nefariously or just stupidly, it is a ridiculous system that is certainly in no way a free market system and the policies of the Federal Reserve help foment boom-bust cycles that wreak havoc on the U.S. economy.

Also, "Open Market Operations" where the Fed can print money and buy treasuries to lower long term interest rates is so blatantly egregious as to be a totally destructive aspect of the American economy. Not to mention it completely destroys any foundational basis of individual liberty and secure personal property.

The Fed is a scourge and should be gone whether it is a nefarious institution created for personal gain of some banking elite, or whether it was just a terrible moronic establishment of a ill-advised avaricious congress. Either way it is a tyrannical institution.

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Freedom - Peace - Prosperity

I agree that it should be abolished

Central planning of the money supply and the legal tender law privileging fiat currency is destructive.

I'm just pointing out the flawed conspiracy theories surrounding the Federal Reserve.