How Shall History Explain the Magic That Was Here?
No other movement in history has generated so much money off the Internet from people who got absolutely nothing personally in exchange for it. For those of us who study money and politics, that's never happened before. Usually there's some personal benefit explanation... Maybe a picture shaking hands with the President that a donor can hang on their office wall in exchange for a $5,000 contribution or maybe the donor was "shaken down" by a politician who could soon be regulating the donor's industry. There's amost always a reason.
As far as I can see, this forum coughed up millions in exchange for none of these.
I have two very different theories to explain the phenomenon. One is the "fignting for God and Country" or "war theory" and the other is the "charitable contribution" theory. These are very different. A test for the war theory is that the soldiers would quicky adapt a new weapon no matter how complicated it was. They'll do anything to win. The charity people would not. They contribute to feel like they've done their share and to feel better about themselves. They wouldn't spend 5 minutes studying a new weapon because it doesn't matter to them.
For those of you who witnessed history here, how should history
explain it?
Ok, after posting this, it's obviousl that there's a bias toward thnking of ourselves as fighting soldiers instead of "feel good" charity people. Fortunately, I can easily test your answer. I'm a CPA whose developed a new weapon that legally circumvents powerful laws that cripple your efforts. If you thirst for a more powerful weapon, you'll understand the complexities of this transaction in about 15 minutes. If you're looking to make sure you've done your fair share, you'll never get it. Take the test at powervotenow.com by hitting the button at the top. Please, let me know if you got it.
If for some reason you feel there's something wrong with charity, but it is the real answer you can let me know privately.
It's called
pluralism.
2 things. LOVE THE IDEA....BUT>>>Could be done with pledges
and while some money would need to be used for printing, accommodation's and travel, 50% is far too much.
However, This is a tremendous idea!! Let's put it to work..WITH MODIFICATIONS...
1. Start a pledge count
2. Target the senate first. Nearly evenly divided, only need to influence a few.
the beauty of this is we may never have to actually send in the money, and if we do, it's likely we will only have to do it once or twice.
Pledge Count is Great Idea But Senate?
I think the pledge count is a great idea to get the ball rolling. I think once people see the support grow, they can avoid some of the more confusing mechanics and it avoids any financial risk of loss to the particpants. Of course, people are going to be very worried this is a scam. Are you thinking non-binding pledges? I'm thinking that would be a good start. In the long run, they would become a problem as certainly there are some who would throw any number out there; but, as long as we're all in the family at this stage. I'm sure I could come up with someway of presenting this score at powervotenow.com.
Your idea of targeting a closely balanced body is right on the mark. As far as the Senate goes though, that's the most expensive legislative body you could pick. An effective whip over those folks would be millions. If you want to get on the FRONT PAGES FAST, pick a small state legislature, closely balanced. I assume Ron Paul issues are going on somewhere out there. Ron Paul could serve as Whip just as easily on a state issue as a fed. Back in the 80's, I got on the front pages of the largest dailies in Vermont (I'm from Michigan) with $100 worth of ads. It seems the President Pro of the Senate got pretty shook up. The attorney general (who the President complained to) found that I was NOT in violation of any campaign finance laws. The problem then was that I didn't have any customers and there was no "magic." What do you think about state vs fed for the sake of publicity?
Glory be to the Father and
Glory be to the Father and to
the Son and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now
and ever shall be, world without
end.
Amen.
Not one man or small group of men can end the hopes of a world that someday it will live in peace and harmony regardless of the adversities they all put forth. Good men of peace shall prevail and the wicked shall perish.
Remember these words, my brothers and sisters as we go along these treacherous path to freedom and peace. Let us make, through our concerted efforts to bring about these noble ends by placing RP to a place where people can once again look up, follow, and make good example of, how good, peace-loving, we American People are.
"He who exercises government by means of his virtue may be compared to the north polar star, which keeps its place and all the stars turn towards it." Confucius
"He who exercises government by means of his virtue may be compared to the north polar star, which keeps its place and all the stars turn towards it." Confucius
History is written by the Victorious
We will write our own.
I have returned from the machine . . . . . .
I have reviewed the comments but have chosen not to continue investigating your "new weapon".
Your choice of words in your replies are well placed and seeking.
I fear your intentions are not as they seem.
Good day.
You Don't Seek a Powerful New Weapon for Victory
So you're the charity type I must conclude. As I study the magic here, there are more charity types than soldier types (although everybody would prefer to think of themselves as soldier types). When you contribute to Ron Paul, you probably feel good about yourself, that you've "done your share." That's good, nothing wrong with that. It's just that the beginning of anythig new with real impact will require soldier types to lead the charge. No matter what I say, no matter what I do, I will turn off the charity types at this stage because I have nothing for them that they want.
Good day...and if there are a few soldier types, you'll be able to tell your grandchildren that you witnessed the beginnings of what made their world the great place that it is.
I am happy with your assessment of me.
I seek more peace, not more weapons. You seem to seek either to "capture the magic" (or half of it) in your pocket, or to profile the supporters who are likely to be the militant type.
HR 1955 isnt law yet, but this blog will be around after it does. Why don't you use your new weapon to "can" that bill, and then you can start making your money.
PowerVote--100% non-violent
A soldier's attitude is what is needed. There's no need or call for violence.
How much is your issue worth to you or do you want somebody else to do all the work? Here's an idea: whatever it's worth, send it to Ron Paul's office (not his campaign). Tell Ron Paul to tell PowerVote the amount and issue so that I can post the amount and your issue on the PowerVote Scoreboard. Cut him out of the profitable part of the 50% if that will make you happy. Tell him you want all the money back whenever he sees fit. Tell him you want it back PowerVote style per powervotenow.com. As your cause builds steam, Ron Paul could start charging new customers whatever is fair.
How's that? Freedom is powerful and I can free anybody who wants to be free no matter who they trust or don't trust. But if you don't want to be free, if you just want to feel good about yourself and condemn me, then I can't help you...yet. Your time to become a customer of this type of service will come later.
This is for PowerVote
Ok. Lets start from scratch here.
We are going to assume, from here on out, that noone cares how much of the money deposited you get to keep.
You deserve to be paid for this service if it works, and you can't put a real price tag on freedom.
So we're past that now.
We are also going to assume that your system will be implimented exactly as you say. Money is deposited, the whip uses that money to influence other politicians, and then the whip makes recommendations on what to do with the returned deposits. That is the information the depositor is 'buying' when they agree to the amount of the deposit return being less than the deposit. Then the depositor follows the instructions of the Whip and the refunded monies get put into campaign funds accordingly.
So we have zero problems with the money, and we have zero problems with the procedure.
What remains are the other questions that have been brought up, which have yet to recieve an answer.
1. Is it legal?
FEC Considerations -
The FEC may disagree with your assumption that this does not fall within their boundaries. Your own stance on their potential opinion is 'I dont care' because you consider this a first amendment issue, not an election commission one. Running a system like this requires more than that as an answer. People are going to need verification that this system is outside of the jurisdiction of the FEC or other government finance regulatory systems.
2. Is it politically allowed?
Ethics Considerations -
Can a politician, Senator or otherwise, legally use a system like this to become a defacto 'whip' without violating some ethics rule, or coersion regulation, or other pressure related system? After all, an elected official is supposed to be a representative to those who elected him/her - not the elected representative of PowerVote or the Whip of PowerVote. There very well could be political office standards which are in place that would make this system, however useful on the surface, turn into a political nightmare for the Whip.
3. How/When will the decisions of the Whip be delivered?
Face it, politicians flipflop all the time. On one issue a politician might be 100% on the side of the PowerVote whip, and on the next they are 100% on the opposite side. Is there supposed to be some kind of 'score card' for each politician that the WHip has to update all the time? If the Whip gets 'enough' support from targeted politicians, is it up to the Whip to decide whether that 'sometimes supporter' should be ousted from office through PowerVote contributions to their opponent? What are the 'rules' that the whip will have to follow in order to make these critical decisions - and more importantly - how is the Whip supposed to know if the proposed candidate which will receive the PowerVote support, isn't going to end up being more of a burden than a help?
4. Endorsements
Would a Whip's instructions to PowerVote users to support one candidate over another be considered an 'endorsement' for that candidate? Endorsements are highly coveted, and can lead to political ruin in future elections if those endorsed politicians end up causing more problems than they solve. It is hard enough to reach a position high in the political spectrum of this country without having to worry about potentially endorsing a total loser. I personally think that finding a WHip willing to put his career on the line in these instances will be a huge hurdle.
So there you have it. Nothing about how much or to whom. Just concerns about legality, ethics, balancing the pros and cons of the political 'herd', and endorsement fiascos.
That may not even be 'all' that people here are wondering about - or perhaps I'm the only one who actually wonders about anything at all?
If you can give answers to those issues - it would serve to not only move me toward accepting this idea as realistic and doable, it would probably open the door to even more questions (positive and negative - but hey, you asked for it by bringing it up heheh) from others.
The idea is fantastic - I'm not going to say it isn't. The way the money moves around is fine. How the Whip gains power through the use of this system is obvious to anyone who has read the information on the site.
But these issues are still there. They need answers. I sure hope noone told you that this was going to be 'easy to sell' hehe.
CF
Awesome--Just 2 issues? (Very advanced discussion here folks)
Getting past the transaction and money complexities is huge progress...bravo!
Let's say I can deal with your two issues. They are first, “are the deposits in PowerVote really free from the tyranny of campaign finance law so that a powerful whip can be built (we've got zero if this isn't true)? and two, “is it legal for the Whip to make public his target priorities during the legislative process so he can herd lawmakers into passing legislation?"
There's a third problem I see that scares me far more....lack of soldier types left in this movement looking for a powerful new weapon as opposed to charity types who don't really care about that. The charity types may certainly come in after PowerVote has totally proven itself, but until that time comes, I don't see any hope without the presence of soldier types. I can't imagine charity types digesting this, they have no reason. I could spend years making sure every "t" is crossed for them and they still wouldn't move. Soldier types are a whole different story. I won’t need a Supreme Court opinion to get them to move. You’ve been watching these posts, do you think there are any soldiers left in this movement?
Well, you have demonstrated
Well, you have demonstrated time and time again that, to you, we are either 'charity' types or 'soldier' types.
And, yet again, you fail to answer the questions that are asked - even when you are presented with the full benefit of the doubt.
I now know that you are either McCain, Clinton or Obama - because you avoid questions like they do.
:)
CF
So how much money are you in for?
So your only objection is lack of an FEC opinion? If I get that opinion (that anybody including you can get free at FEC.gov,), will you be the first to buy in and how much will you be good for?
In the landmark Supreme Court decision on campaign finance law, Buckley Vs Valeo, the court realized that the presence of these laws could have a "chilling effect" on legitimate free speech and press. That's why the FEC is required to issue opinions for free. I have no idea if this "chilling effect" is your goal, but I can find out fast by calling you out. How much are you good for?
The magic is still here.
"Freedom brings people together." Ron Paul is absolutely right on this one. If you believe that tyranny will triumph over this movement, then you underestimate the power of liberty.
We're just getting warmed up. Don't throw pocket aces just because the guy sitting across the table is ridiculing you. Wait for the flop.
"Free government is founded in jealousy, and not in confidence; it is jealousy and not confidence which prescribes limited constitutions." Thomas Jefferson, Kentucky Resolutions of 1798
Really?
The history making magic referred to in the article are people supporting a cause financially in exchange for no tangible personal benefit. That magic seems to have dropped dramatically.
Yes, really.
I agree that financial contributions have dropped off. I am just assuming that most folks, like myself, are really worried about our money right now--mine is in tight supply. I have given what I could, and then some. I wish I could give more, but I have more pressing expenses. You could say that the banks have me by the short-hairs.
"Free government is founded in jealousy, and not in confidence; it is jealousy and not confidence which prescribes limited constitutions." Thomas Jefferson, Kentucky Resolutions of 1798
I don't understand your comment
"that financial contributions have dropped off"
Grassroots has done well $1 Mill for RP congressional seat + $6 Mill for RP presidential race. All in 53 days? That means he has raised $132,075+ a day!
That is fantastic!
"I am just assuming that most folks, like myself, are really worried about our money right now.."
This I agree, and considering this, funds have been fantastic!
There is still another 38 days left in this quarter. At this rate he will could bank $12M this quarter!
Mathew 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
Thanks for clarifying that lynnopoly!
I was honestly wishing I could contribute more to the cause, but I just don't have the big bucks. I'm glad to see that others are coming aboard.
"Free government is founded in jealousy, and not in confidence; it is jealousy and not confidence which prescribes limited constitutions." Thomas Jefferson, Kentucky Resolutions of 1798
LOL--You Should Have Bought Gold When it Was $640
I'm not so sure about your analysis. I suspect a lot of Ron Paul folks are gold bullion types...a nice way to pee on the fiat money system. They've done very well lately.
True, But I'm investing in something else right now...
Law School.
"Free government is founded in jealousy, and not in confidence; it is jealousy and not confidence which prescribes limited constitutions." Thomas Jefferson, Kentucky Resolutions of 1798
You're good
Great investment.
Kemp
_________________________________
Freedom - Peace - Prosperity
tell your local GOP about it.
Tell your local GOP about it after your meetup group takes them over!
We have 500 delegates to the state convention for Ron Paul in Indiana and people running at all levels of government in the state. NETWORK move on. The fight has just begun!
About what?
The GOP has been around a long time. That's not recent history.
But not Ron Paul GOP!
We are the real deal....
Hate povery, not the poor - Gandhi
Hate povery, not the poor - Gandhi
Ron Paul best investment
Right now I feel a donation to the Ron Paul campaign is the best investment I have. for my donation I do receive something personal in exchange. Ending the irs would be a start, my income would increase, fixing social security so my mothers security and my future is solvent. Peace from violence caused by the drug wars on the street. To be secure in my real estate holdings knowing that eminent domain can't take it away from me. To stop living in carlin's illusionary world. to be secure, free, and at peace.
That would cost me at most $2300?
That is a deal of a lifetime. Our forefathers pledged their fortunes and lives for their freedoms.
Ron Paul 2008
So if you were never born, the outcome would be different?
For your "I did it for an investment" reason to make sense, then you must think the outcome could pivot on your participation. Otherwise, a person selfishly pursuing an investment would realize they could skip participation and the legislation and the movement would either survive or die with or without them. They could get the action they want without spending anything.
Multiply by that the # of votes RP gets..the answer is
Of course!...I mean...Duh...
It is about us...not about RP himself!
Hate povery, not the poor - Gandhi
Hate povery, not the poor - Gandhi
Well, if we Ron Paul succeeds
the truth will be written if we fail they will delete history as well as us.
Prepare & Share the Message of Freedom through Positive-Peaceful-Activism.
So are you a soldier thirsting for a powerful new weapon or
are you a donor type?
Neither
Hate povery, not the poor - Gandhi
Hate povery, not the poor - Gandhi