Collectivism on Daily Ron Paul
I refer to the incessant screeching of "Troll" here on the Daily Paul, and the bias use of the flagging system.
The continuous practice of placing the label of troll on those with whom you disagree, truly is the worst sort of collectivism. Some of You people need to bone up on Ron's message.
If you cannot engage someone with an opposing view point without resorting to Ad Hominem Ad Infinitum, then your ideology is flawed.
I would advise against labeling people, but I know that some of you will continue to do so, regardless of how many good people you drive away from this site. Have you considered that you may be doing more damage than those you label as "Troll"?
I have watched, as some very good, informative posts are deleted by the unfair and imperfect flagging system employed on this website. This is just another example of collectivist censorship.
I know all this has been said before. I know this is a privately run website. It has also been a community, where the message of Ron Paul is preached. I wonder how some of the comments I see here reflect on that message.
Hear! Hear! ...
...but quickly, before this thread gets flagged and deleted by Freedom's Thought Police.
The proof is in the pudding--traffic to DP has plummeted and continues to drop. Donations to Ron Paul's campaign are dwindling to near zero. People (the 99.5% of RPs supporters who DON'T post on DailyPaul) are voting with their feet and fingers and pocketbooks. I find it horribly sad, because I've fpund the good Doctor the only statesman I've been able to wholeheartedly support in over 40 years. Do we want the Ron Paul Idea Campaign to wither away the same way as the Ron Paul Presidential campaign? I don't. But we are going to have to fall back and change strategy and tactics, or it will. If you go on doing the same old thing, you are going to go on getting the same old results.
So call me a troll.
salt-of-the-earth
Agree
as much as I may think hes a leftwing gatekeeper....
"Great men do not seek power, they have great power thrust upon them" - Klingon proverb
www.myspace.com/chapel_of_chaos
www.ronpaul2008.com
"Truth is Treason in an Empire of Lies"
www.campaignforliberty.com
www.downsizedc.org
www.antiwar.com
Sorry, this forum is for Ron
Sorry, this forum is for Ron Paul Supporters.... If you are interested in criticizing him, the movement, or in anyway give Ron Paul or the movement a bad name, you are not welcome here.
Mr. Nystrom clearly said this a while back.... this is his private forum and he wishes it that way.... he said he considers the flagging system considerable help to him because he doesn't have the time....
If you want to post negatively about Ron Paul I'm sure there are many other forums dedicated to that where you will be welcome.
NONE BUT PAUL!
So you equate "support"...
with fawning adulation? Sad. And foolish.
We've made a lot of mistakes in this movement, very serious ones. Way back in September I read a very inciteful analysis of Ron Paul's presidential prospects by a non-RP political pundit. He placed a "glass ceiling" on RPs "natural constituency" of about 15% of the American electorate. Maybe, maybe, not. But we have drawn 5% of the vote nationwide so far--a pitiful 1/3 of our potential without modifying or sweetening Dr. Paul's message in any way. Why? There's plenty of blame to spread around--HQ incompetence, poor quality advertising, berserker grass-roots supporters, keyboard jockeys who somehow can't get out and meet real voters, RP's allergy to retail politicking, MSM opposition, GOP heirarchy, etc. etc. While negative blame dumping is pointless and counterproductive---without positive criticism (yes, of the good Dr. himself, too) we are going to go on doing the same-old, same-old and go on getting the same-old, same-old, and the RP Revolution will not so slowly dwindle into irrelevance, then into oblivion. Is that what you want, "supporter"?
salt-of-the-earth
I'm a Ron Paul supporter,
I'm a Ron Paul supporter, but my support is not without criticism (usually of the non-philosophical, nuts and bolts campaigning and presentation skills variety).
If you or anyone else is interested in improving things with honest feedback, I'm all for that.
If you or anyone else is interested in promoting cultish, "insider" backslapping, then I have no time for you.
..................
"The main thing that I learned about conspiracy theory is that conspiracy theorists actually believe in a conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is chaotic..." —Alan Moore
Exactly
This isn't a "Free Speech Forum" this is a Ron Paul community. Our community should definitely try to be as open and welcoming as possible, but clearly there are certain rules of decorum that must be followed for any productive discussion to take place.
If you are interested in creating a forum where "anything goes" I encourage you to start one.
I do agree that ad hominems and other personal attacks are not indicative of quality discourse, but often the ones stirring the pot are the ones using such tactics.
It's plain as day to see for any clear minded observer.
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Freedom - Peace - Prosperity
And who decides that?
And who decides that? You? I've seen plenty of posts deleted, that I thought were good. The system is FLAWED. It allows the minority to silence others.
I've been in the movement a long time.
I know members of Ron's family and have worked with them and campaign workers. I've "paid dues" to this campaign with blood, sweat and tears. I know many others who have done even more than I, who have been called troll, or had posts deleted.
I'm asking you; do you think that is a fair system? Have you ever stopped to think, that maybe the "trolls" could take over such a flawed system? I've seen it, so I know it can and does happen.
Mr. Nystrom can do whatever he wishes with his site. I know of many Paul supporters that won't even come here because of what it has become. Personally, I want it to change. If it doesn't, I will exercise my freedom of choice, never to return here, and to encourage others to do the same.
"The United States can pay any debt it has because we can always print money to do that." — Alan Greenspan
How are posts deleted?
Isn't that at manystrom's discretion, or after a post has been flagged 7 times?
Wouldn't it be better to insist that DPers be more judicious and forbearing than to keep harping on freedom of speech?
I agree
Encourage judiciousnesses in flagging.
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Freedom - Peace - Prosperity
They are attacking us
Because they hate our freedom. Hahaaaa just kidding they don't hate our freedom they love their communism! And they want us to love it too.
The Revolution Continues at http://nationbuilder.org
The Revolution Continues at http://nationbuilder.org
Obviously
There is no perfect system. But there must be some rules, don't you agree?
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Freedom - Peace - Prosperity
Flawed Ideology
If you cannot defend your ideas without resorting to ad hominem or censorship, then you have a flawed ideology. The system in place here at DP is flawed, and the constant witch hunts are counter-productive at best.
Who made you (if the shoe fits) the forum policemen? Do you believe in freedom or not? Is your faith so weak, that you must shut down any who dare disagree with you, or hold an opposing viewpoint?
I suggest you just ignore the posts you don't like, or bump up those you do. That seems eminently more fair than the current system.
"The United States can pay any debt it has because we can always print money to do that." — Alan Greenspan
I agree with you...
I totally agree with you.... People here have flagged and deleted many threads I have created.... And I am sure I have done 1000 times more in the revolution for Ron Paul than they.... its as if self criticism and HQ criticism is not allowed. Without self evaluation and critique, no corrections and progress can be made.... Its darn right hypocritical that self professed LIBERTY lovers can't deal with the liberty voiced from their own revolutionary ranks.
Such Flagging must be stopped. In fact, I wish Manny would just get rid of that feature all together.
Read my latest thread before it gets flagged and removed.
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/41285
Treg
well said Treg
"Rules of decorum" is code for censorship. I could understand if RP were still in the race,which he has not been for months.
I could understand if there were new people coming online and not wanting to present them with dirty laundry.
But there are a group of flag nazis here that have taken it upon themselves to organize,and be the judge/jury of what is acceptable, and what is not.
This site will die a slow bitter death with no one left but the flag nazis,and they will eventually flag each other out of existence.
I got banned as Paulinator408,because I attacked someone making fun of a dying 9/11 responder.
My critical posts of HQ have been flagged as spam.
The population of this site has dropped at least 80%.
Now Nystrom has another site called depression2,although I admire his efforts, It will hardly be a foundation for the new revolution.
The same flag Nazis will follow and the same tone will prevail.
I propose we get behind one central site where everyones opinion is welcome,but but into a proper place to discuss. A big tent.
I propose THEREVOLUTIONSTARTSHERE.COM
I would be happy to turn over this domain name to some talented graphic artists and webmasters to continue what was started.
I doubt there are any left here,but if they are let me know what you think.
*********************************************
The Second Amendment
The ORIGINAL Homeland Security
Come on now
In any community there are rules of decorum. We are a community of individuals for limited constitutional republican government. If someone comes on here and blatantly fires away at our cause, you're damn right they are going to get flagged and labeled. One has a right to say what they will, but I sure as hell have a right to call them on their stupidity.
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Freedom - Peace - Prosperity
if someones "opinion" goes
if someones "opinion" goes against the Constitution and is here to discredit what the Ron Paul revolution is about... damn right i'll point out the troll!
“A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on, and are punished.” (Prov. 22:3; 27:12 KJV)
Hey McCain-----┌П┐(◣_◢)┌П┐
...And I don't think that
...And I don't think that YOU should be the final arbiter. If you arrogate to yourself the role of forum policeman, what does that make you?
"The United States can pay any debt it has because we can always print money to do that." — Alan Greenspan
Not
Not everyone agrees with EVERYTHING Ron Paul says, he is wrong on some issues and dead right on on others
you ain't right...
Please elaborate for us, JLH, in what areas is the Honorable Dr. Ron Paul "wrong"?
"We don't have to start a brand new revolution...All we have to do is restore the original Constitution." -Ron Paul
----
"...a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people." -John F. Kennedy
Ron Paul is not Perfect on the issues...
If you INSIST that to be in the revolution you must agree with 100% of everything Ron Paul has said or did then YOU will be getting a very small
Revolution indeed.
Allow people the LIBERTY to disagree with Ron Paul, some of the issues, its strange how people minds work, and no two are alike.
Watch this video of someone who entered their video into my RonPaul Youtube Video contest.... http://youtube.com/watch?v=zW-1263LqVE
It is telling on many levels... it tells you that people are just people and come to the Revolution in their own way, not your way, not my way, but their own way with their own reasons.
Some are democrats, but hold some values lower and some higher such as the war and Peace, thus support Ron Paul and disregard his "Minimum wage is bad" position or pro life position.
You need to recognize this, and try not to "Convert" people, just let them join in the Revolution, let them be. We are not a cult of perfect followers of Ron Paul people.... if we were, then we truly would be Paulbots rather than Patriots.
Treg
"he is wrong on some issues"
Who said that the Honorable Dr. Ron Paul was "perfect on the issues"? I only asked JLH a question. Apparently he or she does not, however, deem it worthwhile to support his or her position in this forum at this time. They'd rather just run off at the mouth that "he is wrong on some issues."
So tell us, JLH, on which issues is Ron Paul "wrong" in your surmise? Get specific.
Or does Treg do the talking for you?
"We don't have to start a brand new revolution...All we have to do is restore the original Constitution." -Ron Paul
----
"...a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people." -John F. Kennedy
“Criticism may not be
“Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things.” -- Winston Churchill
I fear that the DP has a gangrenous limb (censorship); that if it is not cut off, will be its doom. We either try to practice what we preach, or we are liars.
"The United States can pay any debt it has because we can always print money to do that." — Alan Greenspan
Difference between liar and troll?
You don't like liars, but trolls are okay? Would you acknowledge that lying is not part of free speech? Would you acknowledge that saying things simply to anger, annoy, and disrupt other's conversation is not part of free speech?
I've been flagged for posting prayer requests for Ron Paul's success. I DO realize what you are saying, and I agree that there is an over use of that option. However, Freedom of speech is not an absolute. I think your objections should be based on the concepts of Charity: giving the poster room to be grouchy and mistaken. Truth: hearing things that we don't want to hear. Justice: not allowing troublemakers to start fights and disturb a peaceful exchange.
Really, Freedoms of belief and speech and action; are actually Responsibilities. Censorship is not a gangrenous limb. If used correctly, it is a calling to account for the things which are spoken. Otherwise, what right do we have to complain about ABC's article saying that Ron Paul had dropped out? Do not they have freedom of speech also?
I disagree
"Would you acknowledge that saying things simply to anger, annoy, and disrupt other's conversation is not part of free speech?"
I do not agree. Free speech is the freedom to say whatever you want, especially when it angers, annoys and disrupts. That is often the only kind of speech that works, when trying to reach others.
Do you suppose Thomas Paine worried about angering or annoying the King, or even other Patriots? I truly do not understand the logic in your statements.
"The United States can pay any debt it has because we can always print money to do that." — Alan Greenspan
Speaking the truth which angers,
(when necessary) is different than repeatedly and intentionally trying to provoke anger.
Saying "Ron Paul is a loser!" over and over on Daily Paul, is not practicing freedom of speech.
C'mon. Let's not play lawyer games. Common sense can suffice. I have an open mind and enjoy good conversation with strongly opposing views. But trolls DO exist, and there must be a way to control the damage they do to the internet society. Blatant rudeness should not be tolerated. It is like going to a park and stomping on all the flowers just because you *can.*
I've never seen such a post here.
I've never seen such a post here. Ever! I'll say it again, I am not talking about the extreme. When someone writes a civil, well thought out post, even if is contrary to what you believe, it deserves to stay. Are we REDSTATE?
I will not tolerate it. If Manystrom continues to do so, then I will delete the bookmark and not look back, as many others have already done.
"The United States can pay any debt it has because we can always print money to do that." — Alan Greenspan
You are correct....
So please join me and write Manny to get rid of the FLAG feature.... its hurting DP and the movement.
Treg
What if
What if someone came in here and posted "Ron Paul rapes puppies"?
Should that be allowed or flagged by the Ron Paul supporting community?
There has to be SOME WAY to ensure decorum.
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Freedom - Peace - Prosperity
Is that likely to happen?
Is that likely to happen? Really? I'm sure the forum moderators can deal with that kind of thing.
I'm not talking about the extreme. I'm talking about the norm here; arbitrary censorship of civil posts, with the express intent of shutting them up. And you know it.
"The United States can pay any debt it has because we can always print money to do that." — Alan Greenspan
Well
I don't see much moderate stuff getting flagged and banned. I think there are "trolls" who come on here to purposely try to stir up the pot. Do I flag many posts? Definitely not. But do I believe that flagging is a legit tool? Absolutely.
My example was extreme, but for a reason, clearly there are lines that should not be crossed in civil discussion, and when crossed should be flagged and deleted. The question is, where is that line? I agree with you that you need to be liberal with what discussion is allowed in a civil arena, but you need to have some sense of decorum.
As far as moderators, I don't think there are any on here except Nystrom, and he does not seem to moderate much, so there has to be some form of community moderation.
To try to assert that no moderation is needed is naive to the reality of internet message board communication.
I am sure you agree that in an ideal world, we would need no moderation and everyone could police themselves, but the reality is, people have differing aims and a wide open, generally impersonal and anonymous forum is ripe for abuse.
From where I stand too many people are quick to label someone else a troll and too many people are quick to complain about troll labeling.
The key is judgment.
The ultimate key is finding common ground, taking personal responsibility, using your brain and thinking before you post. Unfortunately, some have not mastered these arts. Therefore we need some form of moderation.
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Freedom - Peace - Prosperity