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over 400 children taken from their parents in texas
Submitted by caveman on Tue, 04/15/2008 - 10:14
what gives the state the right to take these children with no evidence of wrong doing only allegations? » |
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parens patria...the state is
parens patria...the state is the parent.
Are your children next?
Brooke Adams highlights some of the victims harmed by this shotgun approach to the case.
The Polygamy Files: The Tribune's blog on the plural life
http://blogs.sltrib.com/p...
Saturday, April 19, 2008
The Ruling
The children stay with the state. By now you know that Tom Green County Judge Barbara Walther came to that conclusion today after two long days of testimony about whether the FLDS culture is inherently abusive to children.
She said yes.
Now, to get their children back parents will, at a minimum, have to submit DNA samples, undergo psychiatric evaluations and agree to safety plans focused on . . . well, who knows at this point. A CPS investigator could come up with no proposals for what parents might do to be reunited with their children.
Still, attorneys made spirited arguments for returning the children, speaking of them by age, name or color. The state divided the FLDS children and young mothers into color-coded groups: blue, pink, orange, brown, grey, depending on their ages and circumstances. Several young mothers were allowed to leave the Colesium or Wells Fargo Pavilion to come to court today; they wore identification wrist bands.
The mothers took the stand this evening and said they would do anything to be reunited with their children: move off the ranch, agree to temporary restraining orders prohibiting contact with their husbands, counseling.
They agreed, you could say, to become single mothers and cut themselves off from their friends, family and faith.
Now, Texas Child Protective Services is apparently arranging to send their 416 children all over the state and even across the country.
Those in the courtroom did not have to wait long for the judge to make her decision -- the recess lasted just five minutes, though I'm sure Walther has been thinking it over since signing the order two weeks ago that led to the children's removal.
Media were assigned to the last row in the Courtroom A, which meant that to see and hear the proceedings I had to stand up. All the rows ahead of me were filled with FLDS members. During the wait, a number of men sat with bowed heads and seemed to be praying.
A young couple sat directly in front of me. The woman, Lori Jessop, 25, is staying in the shelter at the Wells Fargo Pavilion with her three children. She was brought to court today to testify about her marriage and willingness to protect her children.
Her husband is 27. When she arrived at court, she found him among the crowd and slipped into the bench beside him. I realized they had not seen each other in two weeks.
He put his arm around her, held her close through hours of testimony. Her rubbed her back at one point. They whispered back and forth. She is an EMT and told the judge that she would take their children -- ages 4 to 11 months -- and move off the ranch and go to work if she could stay with them.
After the judge issued her ruling, they stood and stared at one another, a look of shock on their faces.
I have no idea what becomes of her now, whether the state will let her continue to stay with their children. I suppose not.
We heard other complicated stories today. One attorney said she represented a 17-year-old girl who is a Canadian citizen and was visiting her grandmother who lives at the ranch when the raid occurred. Now she is a ward of the state of Texas.
One attorney said he represents a 5-year-old boy who has Down's syndrome and other serious medical problems. What about him? he asked the cult expert who testified for the state. Wouldn't he be better off with his mother?
Linda Musser, 56, said she was in Lubbock where her 29-year-old daughter is hospitalized and undergoing dialysis and treatment for other medical problems. Musser's 13-year-old son was taken away. Musser, who was in a monogamous marriage but is now legally divorced, told the judge she would move off the ranch, perhaps to Lubbock to be near her daughter, if that is what it would take to get her son returned. Her older sons would support her.
The judge decided otherwise, for now.
RP2012!
And now for some comic releif...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,350548,00.html
Not sure what is going on with this article, but from the way it flows aimlessly from one point to the next, it sounds like perhaps law enforcement made a legal boo boo? Anyone see any questionable statements made in the article that would cause alarm? Some interesting links from the article:
*"leaving them without the concrete evidence they needed to open a criminal investigation"
*"There was no evidence of illegal activity nor an offense in plain view"
*”authorities believed the group was capable of abuse”
*”even Jeffs' conviction was not enough to barge in on the Eldorado sect”
*"You can always suspect something, but until you get something that puts you on that property, there's not a whole lot you can do."
*”State troopers put into action the plan they had on the shelf to enter the compound”
*"swept into state custody on suspicions"
*"But there again, this is the United States," he said. "We are going to respect them. We're not going to violate their civil rights until we get an outcry."
We know now that in 2005 they did not have concrete evidence needed at that time to enter the compound, they saw no breaking of the law, but because they felt they were capable of abuse it made it ok? Sounds like the thought police…. From the next section, they talk about something that would put them on the property; I think probable cause would be just the thing. Once they had their (at this point) supposed evidence they went forward with a pre meditated plan of civil rights violation. Now I do not agree with polygamy, and certainly want what is best for the children, but notice how if the police followed the constitution then there would be no question as to the legality. My opinion might change as more evidence is PROVEN, but until then I do not see what grounds law enforcement was able to seize 400+ children from their parents based on one suspected rape claim that to date is unfounded as probable cause.
The comedy continues……………….
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,351389,00.html
*”after they decided that children are more truthful in interviews about possible abuse if their parents are not around”
*”"I can tell you we believe the children who are victims of abuse or neglect”
*”in response to allegations”
What is funny is that the first statement insinuates that they need the children so their parents can’t influence what the children say, but does not mention an overzealous prosecutor and/or police psychologist leading these children, remember the Duke rape case and lets not forget the frightfully similar case that cost the US more money than any other trial, where the abusers were innocent, but their lives ruined fighting the state and fed (http://www.crimemagazine.com/daycare.htm )? If law enforcement followed the constitution to obtain their evidence, then we have nothing to worry about. The guilty will be punished and the innocent released. If they did not follow the 4th amendment, and abusers walk and continue the abuse perhaps law enforcement will learn their lesson as the suffering of these children will be on their hands. If they followed the constitution then this will be an open and shut case and the children will be safe. My only question is that if one couple is legally married, and another woman is introduced into the relationship, does this mean that the children of swingers should be put into protective custody? I don’t care about these people, what I do care about is the legal authority that to this point seems to be lacking.
Opinions?
Dam politicians, not rivers!
Always remember:
"It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds." ~ Samuel Adams
Stay IRATE, remain TIRELESS, and set those BRUSH FIRES everywhere you go and in all you do!
No evidence of sexual abuse
The lawyers and judge fought over admitting medical records today, and when the records were finally admitted, the CPS doctor admitted under oath that the medical examination records of the young women examined SHOWED NO EVIDENCE OF SEXUAL ABUSE.
Yet every one of those 416 children is still sleeping somewhere other than their own home tonight.
Disgusting.
RP2012!
Many Mormons are against the
Many Mormons are against the FLDS.
Although, here is a blog manned by a CA attorney (and Mormon) who is being quite objective in his legal analysis.
This seems a more reasoned alternative to view some of his news and extensive legal analysis, rather than passing on rumor and lies like the MSM.
http://messengerandadvocate.wordpress.com/
sign petition to stop TX and CPS
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/free-the-innocent-flds
dup
dup
dup
dup
My nephew the polygamist and the police
My nephew just had his first baby by his second wife. He is a polygamist and his first wife suggested his second wife. He was not legally married to his second wife. They were married by a religious authority they believe in.
The fact is that the legal beagles don't care a bit as long as the husbands and wives are all over the age of 18 and each man or woman is only LEGALLY married to one other person. They can live together in whatever combinations they want and no one cares. As a matter of fact a 50 year old man CAN legally marry a girl under 18 if she is his only wife and he has parental permission up to a certain age limit, which is as low as 12 in some places in the USA. But they have to do it all legally to protect the kid under 18. That wasn't done here.
The Texas authorities were only trying to protect minors from being forced to become sexually active and make choices about sex and family life before they are prepared to make those choices. If the FLDS people in Texas had scrupulously obeyed the law and waited until all "marriage" participants were 18, the police would have never entered the FLDS compound. There would be no reason. If they had done what was legally necessary and married a 50 year old man to a 12 year old girl in the right jurisdiction, the police wouldn't have gotten involved.
I am grateful that the police carefully, respectfully, but firmly are doing all they can to protect those kids. The laws about LEGAL underage marriage, LEGAL underage sex, and the respective illegal proceedings have been worked out over the centuries. They protect a lot of innocent children and teenagers from sexual predators.
Let's give those civil authorities our support for the restraint and respect they have been showing in a difficult situation.
Let's Not
"Let's give those civil authorities our support for the restraint and respect they have been showing in a difficult situation."
Massive separations of (presumed innocent?) families because of ONE UNSUPPORTED ALLEGATION is hardly "restraint." Wholesale confiscation of cell phone cameras from the community are hardly characteristic of "respect" for either private property or due process. Mass reprisals and collective guilt are classic Nazi tactics that are being embraced by Texas' Child Pilfering Scumbags.
Sic Semper Tyrannis!
Professor Bernardo de la Paz
www.citizenduquesne.org
LXXI BC: Ego sum Spartacus // MDCCCLVII: I am Dred Scott // MCMVL: Ich bin Anne Frank // MMX: Je suis Assange // MMXI: Ik ben von NotHaus
Are You Conforming to the Law of the Day?
"Furthermore, after the FLDS began building their temple and refuge in El Dorado in 2004, the state legislature actually changed the state law to facilitate a crackdown against the sect. I eagerly and explicitly grant that the "marriage" practices of the FLDS cult are repellent. It's not clear, however, that they were illegal in Texas before the state legislature enacted a bill of attainder against that church."
http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com/2008/04/your-children-a...
http://www.caller.com/news/2008/apr/13/utah-lessons-applied-...
Ron Paul Explorer: The All Paul Search Engine
Ron Paul Explorer: The All Paul Search Engine
"The Texas authorities were
"The Texas authorities were only trying to protect minors from being forced to become sexually active..."
What is this, Minority Report?
They had an "informant"
living there for the past four years and this is the best they can come up with. Watch this Larry King interview - BTW, I thought King rude and condescending!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPXj4lQo7UY&feature=email
well, no---because where is
well, no---because where is the State's proof of the alleged one minor marriage?
not to mention, where is the evidence supporting removing 400 children military style from their homes?
Mormon/Romney---interesting timing...
Local Baptist helped TX law with this raid...press showed buses "First Baptist Church" hauling away women/children.
Baptist worked against Romney (remember Baptist Huckabee).
More...
No one in law enforcement in Utah and Arizona can explain how Warren Jeffs was put on the FBI 10 Most Wanted list. Both Attorney Generals have tried to dodge stirring up a hornets nest like the 1953 Arizona raid on Shortcreek. It is like the Wizard of OZ. Someone pulled additional strings to add up to $100,000 of reward money for Jeffs capture in increments and timing to coincide with the presidential election. Jeffs was held for about 16 months in solitary confinement in Purgatory Jail before he could face his accuser. Arizona had 61 complaints like the Texas complaint and found 50 of them bogus with no victim to be found. The Texas sheriff fell for it on the third nibble, just in time to coincide with the rumor of Mitt Romney becoming a VP candidate. The Texas sheriff has a snitch advising him of what to do, but I would lay a big bet that he and all the other string pullers are connected to the Democratic National Committee. All this trouble is not about what you think it is. Yes, there are bad characters, but there is someone else pulling strings to achieve a different end
Schindler's List
watching these ladies on larry king talking about how CPS separated them from their children reminded me of a Scene from Schindler's List .
training exercise?
------------------------------------------------
"RON PAUL SUPPORTER SINCE 1997"
RON PAUL 2008 / RE-ELECT 2012
“We have allowed our nation to be over taxed and over regulated and overrun by bureaucrats, the founders would be ashamed of us for what we're putting up with.” Ron Paul
Amazing. So much
Amazing. So much misinformation and outright lies put out by the MSM; and folks repeat it here.
Regardless of one's faith (or lack of) we all recognize that the MSM is hostile to religion (except Muslim--who have multiple wives too).
Such hysteria, rumors, and damage done with NO evidence presented by TX.
Nazi Germany tactics....frightening...their is so little outrage---while we see Baptist vans hauling away the women and children.
I hope CPS and TX comes for the Baptists next.
I've decided it is really about globalism
The government cannot accept a group of people living in Isolation from greater society. I fully expect the Amish will be next.
Of course, when tolerance of other cultures around the world is part of the picture, it is OK. See this clip about polygamy in Africa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC7-Fm7qxjA
good point...
do you think the Muslim's will every be next (they have multiple wives).
I doubt it.
You Got a Problem with Muslims?
Seems like you are taking advantage of this sad situation to promote your own anti-Muslim agenda.
What's up with that?
Ron Paul Explorer: The All Paul Search Engine
Ron Paul Explorer: The All Paul Search Engine
Amish
I'm wondering if know much about the Amish. The Amish are open for all to see; they don't live in a "compound" as the govt called the Texas ranch. They have non-Amish neighbors in their community. There may be several homes built on the same farm for family members. When the Amish marry (one wife), they often will live in a separate house built on the family farm of either the new husband or wife. They have jobs to help support their families (no, not office-type jobs, but buggy making, furniture making, waitressing, etc.) so they are out in the community. The also welcome non-Amish visitors into their homes. They definitely don't live in isolation.
Isolation or
independent - do you think that matters to the Feds?
Some interesting facts for those who are not associated with the Amish...
They live completely independent to our modern ways. If a gas well is drilled on their property, then they are allowed to utilize the free gas. They have a "community" telephone on an isolated telephone pole for everyone to use.
If they rent a home with electric, they can utilize the electric.
I saw a young boy who had a push mower hooked up behind a horse and was mowing the lawn!
While snowmobiling, we travel in their communities. Came across some sled riding one day, and stopped and pulled them, on their sleds, back up the hill - that brought a lot of smiles!
Different "sects" have some different limitations and/or rules from each other.
Some vote, as I had them sign my petition to get on the ballot in PA running as a delegate.
Their clothing, hand made, is kept together by pins - yes, straight pins even. No buckles, no zippers, no snaps, no Velcro, no buttons!
The women wear bonnets (sheer white with un-tied strings) and in winter, pull on a darker, heavier bonnet with a brim, over the white bonnet. Their hair is always tucked up under the bonnet(s).
They look and dress much like the "Polligs" I saw in Utah - except they drive horse and buggy only!
Every thing you just said
applies to 98% of the Mormon Fundamentalists. The FLDS have *one* ranch with 600-700 people living on it. The rest of their 10,000 members live out in the open. All of them hold jobs, some of them very good jobs, making very good money, often doing construction (You'd be surprised how many things in the Western U.S. are built by polyg construction crews).
RP2012!
The irony...
with a Ron Paul administration this problem probably wouldn't exist at least
not to this extent.
aaand if you cheat on your taxes and get caught...guess what???
The DP is proof that the grassroots support for Ron Paul and his peaceful message of individual liberty is large, real, and not going away!
Right you are
Honesty is the only good policy. But I will continue to take every legal tax deduction I am eligible for, as we all should, because we have the right to. Bu cheating would be dishonest. Which I am not and would not condone, ever.
RP2012!
Welfare Fraud
Anyone who is offended by "welfare fraud" isn't sniffing the strong perfume of irony. Tax-funded welfare is inherently a fraudulent theft and redistribution scheme. The FLDS may have found some ingenious loopholes, but the worst that can be said of them is that they are better cheaters than the cheaters who declared themselves in charge of building a better world through socialism.
Given that people pay 40%+ of their income in taxes
it should hardly be surprising that some people will try to get every dollar they can back from the system, whatever is within their legal means to qualify for. And how could anyone be upset about that? It is not altogether strange that one might look at their paycheck, with all the deductions and think, "what government socialistic programs am I paying for that I am missing out on?"
RP2012!
Well stated
I understand your intent, and with a bit of modification, I would agree with your statements.
I do not think they are cheating the system, they are just following the rules as the rules are written. if they weren't, then they would not be getting the benefits. If I take every tax break the law says I can take, am I cheating the IRS, or am I just following the rules?
Most FLDS don't take aid, because most aren't eligible. But if they meet the eligibility requirements, it would be discriminatory to deny them the same benefits that others receive, such as the inner city mother with six children from different dads.
As long as these programs exist (which they shouldn't in the first place), they have to be administered equally.
Anyone here ever taken out a student loan?
RP2012!
let us not forget...
that "they" have decided to not press charges against the supposed abuser. i read the other day that his lawyer had evidence the man hadn't even been in Texas for well over a decade.
"they" don't want people bonding together for a common cause. whatever that cause may be.
i wouldn't doubt if the FBI has rooms full of computers with child porn on them. cause trouble and all of a sudden one of those computers will be introduced as evidence against you. even though you've never seen the damn thing in your life.
No matter who you vote for, the government always gets in - Bill Hicks
What's next, cross burnings on FLDS lawns?
So now, every time a member of an unpopular church buys land, the cops have to visit to check it out? This should concern all of us. Your unpopular stand on some issue may make your neighbors nervous, and it could be you next getting visits from the cops for no good reason other than prejudice. This FLDS guy went above and beyond by inviting the cops onto his property, but it should not have even been an issue.
http://www.sltrib.com/portlet/article/html/fragments/print_a...
Colorado officials unconcerned about polygamist sect member's ranch
The Associated Press
Salt Lake Tribune
GRAND JUNCTION, Colo. -- A Delta County undersheriff says he did not see anything suspicious when he visited a ranch owned by a member of a polygamous sect.
"What we saw was just a single-family residence," Mark Taylor said of the Crawford-area ranch of Nephi Barlow. "There was no suspicious activity at all. There was nothing for us to be concerned with."
Barlow confirmed he is a member of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, a group led by Warren Jeffs, county Commissioner Olen Lund said after the visit Monday.
Jeffs was convicted last year in Utah of being an accomplice to rape in an arranged marriage involving a 14-year-old girl and an older cousin.
Barlow's neighbors alerted the FBI and Sheriff Fred McKee to the ranch after an FLDS compound in Texas was raided when a teen there reported being abused by her 50-year-old husband.
Lund, Taylor and Sheriff Fred McKee visited the 35-acre property at Barlow's invitation.
"Basically, there's a lot going on and wild speculation going on, and he asked us to come look at (the ranch) rather than having it continue or become to be built up bigger as a speculative thing," Lund said.
FBI agent Jane Quimby said the FBI and the sheriff's office are not investigating Barlow.
Barlow bought the property in mid-2007, according to county records. McKee said Barlow told the county that he plans to build two additional single-family homes.
Lund said Barlow told county officials that he grew up in a church compound in Colorado City, Ariz.
"He introduced us to the kids and his wife," Lund said.
RP2012!