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Fair Tax Plan

Has anyone ever heard of Ron's opinion on the Fair Tax Plan? I have a friend who was wondering what Ron thought of it. I haven't fully researched it but my understanding is it would eliminate federal and state income tax while implementing an appx. 23% tax on all newly purchased goods and services, including food. If anyone has any input, it would be most appreciated.




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Ron Paul

Ron Paul said he would like to do away with the IRS and replace it with nothing. HE SAID REPLACE IT WITH NOTHING!!

So the way is see it that is a ""rejection of the fair tax"" .
And any other type of tax not already imposed.
He is opposed to other taxes now in place also.

Liberty is our campaigns gift to the world it is our manifest destiny.
Freedom is a movement who's time has come. Our campaign will lead world wide freedom.

RP definitely has the best

RP definitely has the best solution :-)

...

kind of apocolyptic

can you imagine a tax where everything you buy or sell the federal govt has a stake in for everyone....

With income people hide and look what happens.

Now imagine if you tried to sell something outside of the system...

Very, Very scary...besides everything spoke on to date.

If this is to be done it must be aqueous at the tariff and border so the control is on the companies not the people.

True Now

Everything you buy or sell the federal government DOES have a stake in it.

Can YOU imagine a world with no IRS and the ability to buy something and sell it for a profit without paying tax on it. To invest and keep the profit. Can you imagine not keeping records for IRS, not worrying about April 15, not paying to have your taxes done, not thinking that everyone knows how to pay fewer taxes than you do. Just imagine.

ONE MORE GLARING FLAW

ON the 'price reduction because of built in taxes argument':

Let's go with your assumption that 30% of the cost of all items is built in from income taxes.

Let's go with your assumption that market forces will drive business NOT to take any differences in profit.

Your assumption is critically FLAWED on this ground.

Workers would have to take a 30% PAY CUT to create the decrease in product cost that would then result in lower prices. You see, right now someone makes say $30,000 a year. Their taxes in total might be roughly $10,000 by your calculations. Eliminating those taxes will mean they now KEEP all $30,000. So where is the decrease in labor costs? The pay doesn't change. In fact it CAN'T - because if it did, where would an employee who now is only paid $20,000 a year get the $6,000 to pay SALES TAX on the $20,000 of goods he bought that year? (this is presuming the cost of his checking and savings accounts doesn't end up skyrocketing like a VAT tax to eat up the other $4000)

You are also making the false assumption that someone who does a sublet LABOR job will be charging less also. They will still charge the same amount, but NOW will be charging SALES TAX on top of their labor. This happens all the way up the production chain. Indpendent contractors will be squeezed out of work because they will have to lower their labor charges to compensate for the sales taxes, but they won't have enough money left over to buy good s AND pay the high sales tax.

Even if we were generous and granted all of your exact assumptions, at best you would get about a 13% price decrease this way. You might squeeze out a little more on employer matching taxes, but that is already a part of the cost of labor. As you go up the supply chain, the decrease per retail item is significantly less and less.

It just doesn't add up.

The 'Fair tax' in my opnion

is anything but.

I've read the law and the book. The policy will be an unmitigated disaster and we will end up with both. The sixteenth amendment is irrelevant to taxes on wages and salaries (which is still unconstitutional unless you claim it applies to you by filing out a W-4)

While there are certainly tons of embedded taxes in the prices of goods, Eliminating the income tax will not get you an automatic 30% reduction in prices. For starters, some businesses will try to take the difference as profit for a while.

Second, the argument presumes that 100% of the cost of a product is in labor. Which is patently false. Generally raw materials or sub components, NOT labor make up the most significant portion of the production cost of any retail item. While those prices should reduce as well, anyone would be hard pressed to even begin to calculate the actual decrease as high as 30%.

The largest part of such 'built in' decrease will occur on the immediate level before retail sale.

It gets progressively smaller per item after that.

If you were so generous as to claim business 'X' had a product cost of 33% labor, 33% materials and 33% operating expenses, and you made this assumption all the way up the production chain, you would need an infinitely long production chain to reach 30%. (which at a quick glance is likely to not even get you that 30% no matter what)

YES, there will be a price drop EVENTUALLY. NO - it won't be enough to compensate for the high sales tax.

Another huge flaw is the requirement of the plan to be 'revenue neutral' Horse manure. Spending is the cause of taxation. If we can't put the spending genie back in the bottle, we'll never have any tax that is 'fair.' If congress can't spend within the means of the economy to pay for government without resorting to sapping the hard earned money of the people, then no tax is fair.

IF, a big IF, people reduce or eliminate their sales taxes to ZERO by buying used goods and not using ANY financial services or ANY other service which would now be taxed (but currently isn't) Then Congress will simply have to raise the rates even higher. I suspect this will precipitate the reintroduction of an income tax to make sure we 'get' those 'unfair' people who don't pay 'their fair share.'

Lastly, the whole pre-bate thing is a non-starter. That has to be the absolute worst idea anyone who loves liberty has ever come up with . (oh wait, that's right, the people who really came up with this idea - DON'T truly love liberty, for if they did - they would NEVER require you to REGISTER your family with the government for ANY reason.)

And one more thing, under this plan, State and Local governments would now pay sales taxes. As if they weren't spending enough of our money already.

The whole thing is one giant disaster in the making.

There is a simpler solution: see to it people are educated on how limited the present 'income' tax really is. (it MUST be or else it would be unconstitutional - the Supreme court has said so repeatedly)

People have to learn to stand up for their rights AND REFUSE to voluntarily claim they are a person subject to Subtitle A or C income and employment taxes if they actually aren't (most aren't)

STOP giving out SSN's to employers!!

STOP filing out W-4's

STOP getting SSN's for your kids

STOP using you SSN period

You are NOT a slave, STOP acting like one. LEARN your rights and what is REALLY required of you and what they just WANT you to give up to them. There is a huge difference.

You work for an employer

And you earn an income and you do this?

Income tax is not legal, it is enforced.

Your arguments against FairTax all need to be challenged, but I am simply not inspired. Too late, too tired. I hope people see through your arguments and go research it for themselves. This FairTax plan has been thoroughly researched, evaluated, studied inside and out. Anyone who wants to know the details can call the good people at www.fairtax.org and ask all the questions you want. This is not a new plan, it was started in 1995 and there are 80 congressmen on board with it. We need it.

But we need Ron Paul far, far more.

I believe he said that he

I believe he said that he liked a lot more than the current system, but couldn't support fully because it was "revenue neutral."

I don't recall him ever

saying that "he could not support it fully." It is not his plan because he wants to reduce government spending. His plan is a thousand times better, but FairTax gets us on the road and we need to get on the road so badly. It is a step and we need that, especially now.

I recall RP answering an

I recall RP answering an interview question about the fair tax... I specifically remember him saying something to the extent of not trusting Washington to get rid of the income tax once the fair tax was implemented, so we might end up with both.

I believe he also said something regarding the fair tax probably being better than our current system but that he prefers to get rid of the income tax and replace it with nothing.

...

I think you recall correctly

He also said it in different ways at different times-but always being consistent to his beliefs, as usual. Part of the FairTax is to eliminate the 16th amendment which was never ratified. Income tax is enforced, not legal.

I like the transparency of

I like the transparency of it. I also like that government wouldn't control behavior via taxes. I also like that we could "see" taxes go up or down. I also like that it gets government out of my private financial matters (though they would have a record of all my financial transactions now).

He's said that he'd probably vote for it.

He stops short of endorsing it or advocating it, but he has acknowledged that it's an improvement over what we have now.

Incidentally, it doesn't just eliminate the income tax. It also eliminates capital gains taxes, estate taxes, social security and medicare taxes, and several others that I can't recall off the top of my head. In short, it eliminates any federal taxes levied against individuals.

-jcr

"The problem with trying to child-proof the world, is that it makes people neglect the far more important task of world-proofing the child." -- Hugh Daniel

Billydoughnuts

Any other questions. This is one of my pet subjects and I love to talk about the FairTax--right next to Ron Paul. Always Ron Paul first.

The www.FairTax.org site will tell you everything you want to know in words you can totally relate to.

Let's support this idea. It is important.

not at this time

thanks, though. i plan to research it more in the near future. at least until the 30th when i get my copy of the "Manifesto"!

First..It isn't 23% (Not the way we think of a sales tax anyway)

It comes out to roughly 30% Tax on everything. Google Tax Inclusive Tax versus Tax exclusive Tax to see why the fair tax isn't 23%

Lew Rockwell's site had an example computation up some time back.

This is true

However, the price on products will go down before this tax is added in because corporations/businesses will not pay income tax either and companies will be able to reduce their accounting costs for IRS purposes as well as payroll obligations to IRS. It is really fantastic. The price of things will be almost exactly the same at it is now.

If you buy used, you will pay NO tax. You won't have records to keep, no receipts, no storage, no fear of audit, no IRS. It is wonderful. It is freedom.

It isn't Ron Paul's first choice, but he will sign the bill if it comes to him. First Ron Paul, but push that FairTax-there is no conflict. Every Ron Paul person should go to FairTax and sign up and donate and let them know where you came from. AND every FairTax person should be promoting Ron Paul with every fiber of their being. If we show them how helpful we can to be to them, then turn about just might happen.

Support FAIRTAX. It is wonderful. If you don't think so, take your concern straight to FairTax and tell them/ask them if you are correct in your thinking. They are just a bunch of hard working people like you and me. They will answer your questions.

Double Post

*

Fair in distribution only

Dr Paul favors the FairTax over the current system because the distribution is fair - it's basically a consumption tax. It also promotes *savings*.

However, I think that the FairTax as currently proposed is "revenue neutral". Without being revenue neutral there is no way for it to get passed.

Dr. Paul thinks Washington spends too much on wasteful wars, provides services that undermine those being served, and is targeted by powerful and corrupt influence.

The next tax system needs to generate *less revenue* and be fair, as measured by The U.S. Constitution.

Right, revenue neutral

But it can get passed. There are 80 congressmen for it at this point and 7 senators. That is better than it has ever been. It was actually part of the GOP platform a few years ago. It is bipartisan and was introduced originally by a democrat and a republican. If you talk to people about it, all people want it. It does not matter which party. Only the politicians from the democrats oppose it because it is the game they play.

Things

There was no tax, there was no Lying , No anything.

So we wanted things ,, They cost money , so tax came. We paid for things..The elite said they are God. We own you. 100yrs later here we are. Freedom for self or things?

Things (walmart-I will not go to , Kmart, Target ,Koles.Sears, or you name it) If the store is not Ma & Pa,,, You sold out. sorry to say, but you go to www.freedocuments.org and find walmart, you will see.

Forgive me ,forgive us all. Lets change This

Agreed, Oldcloud

What we have is like a minus 25. FairTax gets us to a 0. Ron Paul would take us to a plus 50. But FairTax helps a whole lot. It gets rid of IRS. It gets rid of tax on all investments. You only pay tax on NEW items. If you are willing to buy used, no tax. There is a monthly prebate for every single person willing to give a social security number in the amount of the tax equivalent on a poverty level income. You can do whatever you want with that money. There is no corporate income either. Payroll taxes could be eliminated. No one would have to keep records, including businesses. Businesses would no longer be their employees keeper for IRS. I don't know why businesses have put up with this all these years. Everyone would pay on new items--tourists, illegal immigrants, yard men, handymen. The tax would be collected as a sales tax is now, but the price on goods would come down before the tax is added because all the hidden taxes in our goods would drop off. SO we would end up paying almost the same amount for our goods.

It is awesome. Please, please educate yourself. These are Ron Paul people here-right. We are the intelligent faction of the population, right? Go educate yourself on FairTax. It was created by a panel of citizens. It has been "vetted" thoroughly by economists all over the country. There are 80 congressment FOR it and 7 Senators. That is the best in history. It has been being pushed for over 10 years now. Check it out. It would do wonders for us in this time of dire need.

Of course RP doesn't think

Of course RP doesn't think it goes far enough and he's right but would support it anyway if that was the only option.

"It is like a finger pointing away to the moon, don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all the heavenly glory." - Bruce Lee

"But, indeed, no private person has a right to complain, by suit in court, on the ground of a breach of the Constitution. The Constitution it is true, is a compact, but he is not a party to it."

he would vote for it

Go to fairtax.org, click on 'Presidential Scorecard' and view his video response to the question.

I find it silly the people on this site who lay into the FairTax as if it's worse than our current system.

thanks, urban

i did just that - didn't notice it the first time i was there.

It IS worse

than our current system, unless you're wealthy. The "fair tax" is just another tool to wipe out the middle class. This is the way to make sure the 60 million Americans not paying federal income taxes, pay their so called "fair share." And by the way who regulates what the rate is, and what stops them from raising the rate whenever they feel like it.

You do not know what you are saying

So you really should not be saying anything until you get yourself educated. Go research it and call FairTax to ask your questions. It is awesome and Ron Paul supports it. Of course, he and I, as well as all of his supporters, want what he wants. The FairTax absolutely does not wipe out the middle class. That is such a trite response to everything.

He is against

the fair tax. Just google it.

No, he is not

.

paul wants to abolish the

paul wants to abolish the irs and the income tax. they are both unconstitutional.