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In what way do you DISAGREE with Ron Paul?

These new NH TV ads have sparked a LOT of conversation. And the #1 with it's opening about not agreeing with Paul on every issue but still supporting him got me to thinking. I've only heard a couple of things come out his mouth that I didn't agree with and they mostly had to do with marketing and PR not political issues. So my question to all of you is this: In what way do you disagree with Ron Paul?

This discussion is meant to be enlightening so we can all understand one another better not fodder for divisiveness and mud-slinging.

***UPDATE*** Please feel free to post why you AGREE with Dr. Paul as well. Sometimes we learn new things that way as well or reinforce ideas we already believe in.

***UPDATE 2*** The other reason I think this is a very fruitful discussion but couldn't quite put into words before is that when we share information like this we can help to clear up misunderstandings or lack of information. We all read articles, posts and listen to interviews and watch videos but we can't listen to or read everything. We may actually agree with him but haven't heard his full explanation of a position and another can clear it up for us.




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I think Dr. Paul could step

I think Dr. Paul could step up his rhetoric a little to reflect growing confidence in the campaign and his ability to win.

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In what way I disagree.

I am pro gay marriage for one.:P

I am very socially liberal, but I am pro honesty.

That is why I support ron paul, honesty and integrity.

stepping up his rhetoric, sounding like a winner!

I definitely think Ron Paul could sound a lot more confident about his campaign. Of course, he's a pretty humble guy and there's a lot of work to do before the primary, but you really have to be convinced that you can win and sound like it!

I DON'T

LAME THREAD. DON'T 'COME TO THE DARK SIDE'!
THE MORE I LEARN ABOUT GOVERNMENT
THE MORE I LOVE MY GUNS
FourWindsTradingPost

THE MORE I LEARN ABOUT GOVERNMENT
THE MORE I LOVE MY GUNS
FourWindsTradingPost

abortion

There is no silver bullet on this issue. Unfortunatelly many, and most of those wielding influence in the debate, do not want a change in the status quo. It is an industry unto itself. For the leaders in the pro-life and pro-choice movements it is a career, a path to easy donations, money, etc- they like it the way it is, and desire the mess to continue as an untractable emotional flash point. Because many of the people on both sides of this thing are certifiable there is no solution (politicians and pat robertsons of the world while not crazy are just unbelievably sleazy). In fact the entire argument is a red herring of sorts, a symptomatic distraction from the real problems around us.

RP offers the only sensible approach: local decisions to capture the overriding sense of the community. If you don't like it in Alabama move to California, or vice versa.

great approach

I introduced two people to Dr. Paul yesterday and already, one today.
Keep it up.

Dubious post...

Why is "disagree" capitalized?! People really need to pay attention to marker words that actually turn off people and turn them away. This is bad post and should be dealt with appropriately. Newcomers come here and see the amount of people disagreeing with Dr. Paul, this will definitely turn them off.

Why can't it say something like "The insignificant disagreements that bring us together"

First impressions are always key and generally it is the younger population that are looking at these forums.

;-)

Excellent Post

Thank you .... Ken Dude!

I disagree

with Ron Paul here but understand his approach. Dr. Paul understands the second amendment was put forth to give us the ability to fight our government when they come down on the people but on the other hand he and most Paul supporters say we should bring about revolution with peace. What gives.

Wake up or Waco!

It's much easier to donate

It's much easier to donate to Ron Pauls campaign, get him elected, and not see here what is happeneing in many countries around the world..I for one would hate to see any of my family or friends go threw that type of a war. If a civil war/revolution would be fought here everyone would lose everything.. The right to keep and bare arms was a right given to the American people to keep the Government from becoming tyrannical. Tyranni is what our founding fathers escaped when they fled to this nation.
We Americans have become lazy. We trust to much in our elected leaders. Our form of government has changed from a Constitutional Republic which is run by the rule of law provided by the Constitution, to a democracy where people vote for the candidate who will raid the public treasury for their handout from the federal government. This election is our last chance to STOP the tearing down of our nation. George dubya has already trashed the constitution.. with his executive orders he can become dicatator overnight by the stroke of a pen if some emergency or made up emergency occurs.. unfortunetly, if these types of liberty ,freedom robbing, unconstitutional laws stay on the books, you may have to use your firearm to get your freedom back. I personaly hope this will never happen.. I would rather fight with my donation, my vote and my time to Ron Paul. it is much less costly. Just as Dr. Paul shows us there is a just war policy.. we as Americans should do everything possible to fight at the ballot box first.. If push comes to shove, the Founding fathers have given us a way to fight back.. but even that right is trying to be taken away with all the anti gun legislation.. Our best hope is RON PAUL! please read the article below!

http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/c2007/cbarchive_20071030.html

"Ineptocracy: a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confisc

I disagree with Ron Paul on

I disagree with Ron Paul on abortion. I'm pro-choice, as far as the first trimester is concerned. I have grave concerns about making women carry unwanted children to term, regardless of my worries about ending a life. I have to wonder which is worse and would not force an unwanted pregnancy on anyone.

Disagree with focus on the war instead of Internet Regulation

I disagree with Ron Paul for not putting Internet Regulation more front and center in his campaign.

But I hope that is changing.

As an American who lives in Europe, I have been shocked by the way the US Congress audaciously passes laws (like IMBRA) that assume jurisdiction over me when I am not even there anymore.

They assume that the Internet allows them to reach across the oceans better.

I have often said that it is a mistake to concentrate on being anti-war. RP already has the members of that crowd that can be pulled away from the Dems.

To win the Republican nomination, Dr. Paul is going to have to win over the pro-war folks by talking past that issue. Their minds cannot be changed on the war. Mine wasn't. I am still as proud of Operation Iraqi Freedom as ever and I am glad about the good news coming out of Iraq (see www.rightbias.com).

It is not stopping me from pushing hard for RP to win New Hampshire (or more likely, to come in 3rd) and at least force the Republicans to make Libertarian thinkers the core of their party (or else I will vote for RP as an independent in the general election and possibly throw the election to Hitlery).

It would be really cool if Giuliani (who is most likely to take California and New York and New Jersey on Tsunami Tuesday in early February) noticed around March that he was polling in a 3 way race behind Hitlery because of a huge 7% national support for RP as a hypothetical 3rd Party candidate.

Around that time, Paul's ideas would be adopted more and more by the frontrunner's campaign. Giuliani would not adopt the abolishment of the Fed or the Dept of Education probably...but he would look into what Internet Regulation laws he wants to announce he is totally against.

Giuliani would be smart, at that point, to also announce that he would appoint someone like Posner, Easterbook or Kazinski to the Supreme Court if he were elected. Those are the best libertarian federal judges in the USA.

It would be a dream come true to see RP go straight to the top, but I don't think the Bilderberg people are going to allow that to happen.

I don't understand...

How can you put internet regulation ahead of the war??? That is just insane. There are innocent people dying right now.....

Focus counts. Republican males care about freedom at home.

Because most Republican males think differently about the war than Dr. Paul. The only way to get them is to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the neocons have taken real freedoms away at home. The Internet regulation, especially that proposed and passed by McCain, can serve as one good focus.

The downward drive of the

The downward drive of the wages is not a good thing for the worker. The corporations really don't seem interested in passing on their savings when they outsource to China or hire illegals. Most illegals use social services, so it isn't as though any money is saved. For the illegal family in America, the amount they pay into the system through taxes is dwarfed by what they take out. two to one.

My question is:

1, if it is immoral to deny someone from coming here, should we allow everyone?

2, Assimilation into the American culture is, to me, an important issue. In many parts of the country the Spanish language is prominent. Spanish is no longer a foreign language. I can hear it in town on any given day, or on my local (Central Oregon) Mexican radio or tv station. Because I cannot understand this language, it is difficult to communicate. For the millions of other American's who do not speak Spanish, and the millions of people who do not speak English, is this not dangerous? Or is it better for American unity to have two main languages?

3, My final question is, if American prosperity which attracts people from other countries (primarily from south of our border) is threatened, should it be protected? I assert it is being threatened. I was in construction and saw the drop in wages before my eyes.

I will end with this statement:
The blame for our immigration chaos does not lie with the alien, but with our leaders. On this matter I agree with Ron Paul. If we eliminate government hand outs, there would not be a problem, and hardly as much attraction.

"Might does not make right"

nothing when you trust the free market.

It took me awhile for the environmental issue to sink in, but after a lot of thought it makes better sense than anything (carbon tax). Free market plus property rights throw in the power of the people to protest. What more do you need for a cleaner environment. Wind, electric and solar power would rise faster then most of us could keep up with. Thanks to the FREE market. Should a major company continue to pollute from one of their power plants or factories a simple boycott and protest could solve that.

I’ve seen this around many times but it’s true and I owe a dept of gratitude to Dr. Paul and all of his supporters.
Thank you Dr. Paul for curing my apathy

A lot actually!

1. I'm not a big fan of guns.
2. I rather like international organizations.
3. I think we should aid our allies militarily if they ask for our help. Doesn't have to be a ground invasion but we can sell them arms and provide logistical support.
4. I don't like the idea of returning to the gold standard.

Also, I'm unsure about his position on LEGAL immigration. I take the standard libertarian approach: Dismantle the welfare state and allow open immigration.

Finally, I like the idea of federalism but it's not such a big selling point for me. But it's one of Paul's central tenets. For me, ideally the federal government would establish programs which states can voluntarily opt into. The cost of the programs would be borne entirely by member states.

What's sad is that despite all this, he's still FAR better than the rest. He's the only "acceptable" candidate for me.

So...what do you agree with him on then?

Might be nice to hear that, so that I can get a better idea of what you DO already agree on, so I can discuss the other things with you too =)

Please respond back with what you DO agree with Dr. Paul on....

Thanks =)

I forgot:

I forgot:
9. His promise to restore Habeas Corpus.
10. His opposition to the death penalty.
11. His opposition to the use of torture.

I agree with: 1. His

I agree with:
1. His position on abortion.
2. His approach to gay marriage.
3. His opposition to the war from beginning to end.
4. His opposition to keeping troops overseas.
5. His support for smaller government (though I wouldn't go as far as he does).
6. His opposition to unnecessary spending like those Congressional gold medals.
7. His support for a balanced budget.
8. His extreme position on free trade.

Thank you...

I've started a new thread to address some of your concerns..
I myself get a bit confused about some of the facts...so please hit the new thread so we can discuss this further...one item at a time =)

I'm compromising, too.

I'm probably MUCH closer to anarchist than Dr. Paul. He still has my vote. #5 is the key. ALL the candidates promise smaller government, but all the rest have records that make 'em sound like Bush. ESPECIALLY http://www.taxhikemike.org Tax Hike Mike, who is getting more than his share of media-attention lately due to antilibertarian bias, IMO.
JMR

RonPaulForLife

this guy is a Huckabee blogger. Check his bio

I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.
Thomas Jefferson, 1791

Summing up my position on immigration

I've stated just about all I can about the complete immorality of creating arbitrary rules to deny access to this country those unfortunate souls who hadn't the luck of being born here. I will sum up here my reasons. Incredibly, not a single poster has addressed any of these arguments. I challenge anyone to answer any one of these questions, but especially numbers 4 ,5, or 6. And please note my simple solution to this whole "problem" in number 7.

1. We complain when illegals come here to get on the "dole", but then we seek to punish any business that would hire them. This makes absolutely no sense. If we don't want them on the dole, then why don't we let them work?

2. The number of jobs are not finite. Illegals do not take jobs from us. Jobs are constantly being created by the hundreds of thousands every year.

3. To the extent that they lower wages, this has an enormous positive effect on the economy by lowering inflation - 75% to 80% of the cost of business is labor cost. If this cost is lowered, then the savings are passed on to the customer - that's YOU.

4. To anyone who supports limits on immigration - Would you have supported FDR's policy, during World War II, of turning away Jews seeking asylum from Hitler's exterminators? This is a very simple question. I've asked it in 5 different posts, yet not a single poster has given a straight answer. Yes or no.

5. A follow up question to the last question would be - Would you deny immigration rights to refugees from Darfur, Bosnia, Somalia or any other war-torn country? Or would you send them back to certain death because they would "clog traffic"?

6. If you favor abolishing birthright citizenship, do you realize that we would ALL need to apply for citizenship? What would the test be? How many would be accepted? Your own children would no longer be automatic citizens of the US. Does this not scare anyone? It doesn't take an Einstein to see that these rules, no longer restricted by the iron fist of the Constitution, would be subject to the political whims of whomever happens to be in power at the time. Would it be that hard to imagine a Hillary type assuming power, then creating an citizenship policy whereby only those that demonstrate an unwavering allegiance to the state would be accepted as US citizens? Would it not be the ultimate irony that supporters of Ron Paul could be the first citizens to fail this citizenship test?

7. The system is the problem, not the immigrant. Focus on attacking the cause of the problem, not the symptom. Abolish the welfare state and the problem disappears. Attack the symptom and the problem keeps coming back. Immigrants are only burdens to us to the extent that our system allows them to be. A simple policy to end the problem of all immigration, legal or illegal, would be to deny any welfare state benefits to any immigrant until they have lived here for 2 years. No more hand wringing on which immigrants to allow and which to send away. Only productive ones will come with a policy such as this. And this would be a simple policy to enact. Much easier then attempting to abolish the welfare state for all Americans.

8. Building a wall and monitoring it would be an enormously expensive task and it would prove fruitless to preventing illegal immigration, much the same way that enacting gun control has proven fruitless in disarming criminals. These policies only serve to make things difficult for the law abiding.

9. No immigration policy could ever hope to be fair to all immigrants. Being that it would be a political document, it would undoubtedly serve only those immigrants favored by the party in power.

10. All these arguments are actually irrelevant. The bottom line is that it is simply immoral to deny another human being the right to seek a better life by restricting his access to “our” country. Think about it - what exactly makes it “our” country anyway? Because we were BORN HERE? But I thought we were doing away with birthright citizenship. If that were to become the case, then what would make it our country anymore than anyone elses? Without the policy of birthright citizenship, unless you actually purchased the land, how would it be your country whatsoever?

I take my marching orders from the Constitution!

Most pure libertarians agree with you

This is my one issue, as well. Eliminating the welfare state and privatizing as much land as possible are the proper ways to deal with the immigration issue. Most other measures proposed by the campaign look to me to be unlibertarian and, the only time I've ever said this about any position of his, unconstitutional (nowhere in the Constitution are border control and restrictions on migration and travel listed as Federal matters). I also don't like the rhetoric, as most of the cost of the welfare state is for enormous tax-paid benefits going to citizens.

Yet there is no question that establishing a foreign policy of peace, commerce, and honest friendship will benefit this country and world dramatically, and that the actual power of the president is greatest in that area. I am sorry for his immigration position, but like virtually every supporter, I recognize a man I can trust and whose overall actions will make this a more peaceful, prosperous, and free society, even if I don't agree on some issues. As soon as he is in the White House, I'll join Paulites against the Paul immigration plan. ;)

Thank you!!

Finally, someone who agrees with me. I was beginning to wonder if I'd somehow been transferred to a Tom Tancredo forum. The libertarian viewpoint on illegal immigration is quite clear. It is simply amazing that so few Paul supporters, a large number who call themselves libertarian, understand the true libertarian argument.

I take my marching orders from the Constitution!

I mostly agree but...

Illegals do not take jobs from us.
Yes they do. But my take is, "good for them!" The more competitive worker should get the job.

6. If you favor abolishing birthright citizenship, do you realize that we would ALL need to apply for citizenship? What would the test be? How many would be accepted? Your own children would no longer be automatic citizens of the US. Does this not scare anyone? It doesn't take an Einstein to see that these rules, no longer restricted by the iron fist of the Constitution, would be subject to the political whims of whomever happens to be in power at the time. Would it be that hard to imagine a Hillary type assuming power, then creating an citizenship policy whereby only those that demonstrate an unwavering allegiance to the state would be accepted as US citizens? Would it not be the ultimate irony that supporters of Ron Paul could be the first citizens to fail this citizenship test?
I don't know what the Congressman has in mind but it doesn't have the way you described. There are lots of ways to implement it. There could be a grandfather clause (or more accurately a father/mother clause that requires that at least one parent be a legal permanent resident). We don't even have to deny others citizenship completely. The children of illegals can be offered citizenship at say, age 18. Or we can have everyone, born to illegal immigrants or legal residents, become a citizen at age 18. We can have a residency requirement. Lots of ways to deal with it.

Some good points, but ...

... unless these ideas are written into another Amendment to the Constitution, they will be subject to alteration by whomever rises to power. This is a critical point. We must think beyond the Ron Paul years - if birthright citizen ship is abolished, something else must be written in stone (ie. in the Constitution) that will guarantee that our citizenship can not be used as political football. All that being said, what is wrong with my suggestion that all immigrants become citizens only after residing here for 2 years, and would therefore denied access to any welfare state benefits such as public schooling, health care, welfare, food stamps, social security, etc? There would no longer be a need for a distinction between legal and illegal. A simple, nearly perfect solution.

Good answer to the "taking our jobs" question. However, I still contend that it is a mistake to think of the number of jobs as finite. More people create more jobs just by their mere existence. There's more mouths to feed, more bodies to clothe, more people to entertain. By simply being here they create a demand for more products and services, and thus more jobs to meet these demands. More importantly, these immigrants come with the awesome potential for brand new unique ideas and products because of the collective ingenuity of millions of people from all different backgrounds.

I take my marching orders from the Constitution!

photoshopwiz's picture

14th Amendment Confusion

...the citizenship clause was inserted to secure citizenship for freed slaves and their children.

The intent of the framers is express and clear, as recorded in the May 30, 1866 edition of the Congressional Globe. Senator Jacob Howard, author of the clause, said, "This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers ...".

Senator Lyman Trumbull, Chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, elaborated:

"What do we mean by 'subject to the jurisdiction' of the United States? Not owing allegiance to anyone else. That is what it means ... It cannot be said of any (one) who owes allegiance ... to some other government that he is 'subject' to the jurisdiction of the United States."

Five critical words here proscribe automatic citizenship - "...subject to the jurisdiction thereof...". Those who enter illegally, in other words, not under the aegis of the United States government, are therefore not under its jurisdiction.

http://www.ccir.net/COLUMNISTS/CRAWFORD-BRUCE/Confusion14th0...

Fourteenth Amendment Confusion

Yes, but the consensus is

Yes, but the consensus is that those BORN in the US are under its jurisdiction. It doesn't matter if the parent wasn't.
There are some who contend that Congress can adjust who its jurisdiction extends to.