What are you defending - the Constitution or the Bible?

0 votes

I am well past the despair that drove me to write this. Thanks to Donnamatrix (and less so rainey and a couple others), for showing you all exactly what I have been dealing with. Thanks to the many, many more of you who expressed an understanding, and said that you will defend me even if I do not believe in your god. May we all meet on the PEACE fields!

I have been beaten into submission by my fellow supporters at a critical moment. I do not try to get like this, I try very hard NOT to get like this, but there is something screwed up with my adrenal function ever since I was put on an SSRI. I was ready to march, to fight and die, for months, to defend the Constitution and the people like you who still believe in it as the defining "American" document. And I got to the meetup where it began like this; "I want to open with a prayer, if you are not a Christian just look away and ignore us." It hurt. Why can't I pray, too? I passed a sign the other day; "Prayer vigil, Christians meet here" again - I am specifically NOT invited? I have tried to "go along to get along" and my lifelong belief is that we all have crutches, life is tough, I don't want people kicking at my crutches, I try not to kick theirs. But I was raised in what some call a cult, my husband was raised Jehovah's Witness. We are smart, largely self-educated people (we have degrees, but that education is of limited value) and we do not believe in superstitions or fairy tales of any sort. We take a lot of "science" with a heathy grain of salt, too.
I recruited this one PCP candidate myself, who believes the pledge was written with "under God" in it, which is incorrect. I do not like it there, we are NOT "one nation, under God" we are one nation under the Constitution. One species under our creator I will grant you. But he ranted on for quite a while about this nation having always been a Christian one. I needed him to run, I let him rant. So, here is my answer, to all the Christians who have finally pushed me into defending myself rather than supporting Ron Paul. (I still support Ron Paul, my time is spent reeling from emails from my "fellow supporters" who are damning me for all eternity because they assume I am Christian.) If there is another person out there awake enough to stare into the unknown and say "I don't know" I will still fight and die for your Constitution. I will NOT fight for your Bible any more than I will fight for a Koran, Bhaga Vad Gita or Aesop's Fables.
FREEDOM OF RELIGION

Our Founding Fathers appear to have chosen every word with great care when they crafted the Constitution of the United States of America. We have spent a couple of centuries teasing out intended meanings and subtle nuances of meaning, but for the most part the document is beautifully succinct if one is willing to accept the obvious. One question that arises frequently is whether or not this was designed to be a Christian nation. These articulate men stated their intended purpose thusly:
“We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.” Not a word about religion.

Make no doubt; many of these men were devout Christians. Did they forget about Jesus and religion? Apparently not, as Article VI ends with this sentence: “The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.” So the first mention is of “NO religious test shall EVER be required…”

However, the very First Amendment is known as the “Freedom of Religion” amendment so the right to practice their faith was clearly of great importance to them. How EXACTLY did they wish to see this freedom protected? Amendment 1 states “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.” The first thing is to protect AGAINST the establishment of a religion, the right to excersise freely comes next.

This concludes the founding fathers thoughts on religion as it related to the establishment of the nation. Perhaps it is unfair to hold this document out alone, for the Declaration of Independence is also something that defines an “American.”

The Declaration’s opening line mentions God, in these terms “…equal station to which the Laws of Nature and Nature’s God…” “NATURE’S God,” cited AFTER “the Laws of Nature.” This seems like an accident to the modern Christian? In paragraph two, these erudite men mention things “endowed by their Creator…” Not Jesus, not Christ, not even “our Lord God” but the inarguable “Creator.” Even the most die-hard athiest believes he has a mother and father that created him. The final reference to any diety is in the final sentence: “And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.” The final mention of the divine is to “Providence” and this word was chosen as wisely as the others for its ability to unite, not divide, on the concept of religion. Please note the thing they called “sacred” was our Honor.
End rant.
If you actually got to the bottom of this, please plan to attend our "After the Rapture Party" on December 25, 2012. We figure the Christians will be done with the day by then, and we will still have the day off work. :)

Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

If no Constitution to bind

If no Constitution to bind men from their mischiefs, there will be no freedom of anything, much less religion.
This what all of us need to learn, Christians as well.

I'm ashamed of Christians who say people are going to hell.
God will be the judge of that. Not man.
Second they are not acting like the one they profess to follow. Jesus didn't come to condemn he came to save.

Forget those who would persecute you. Your creator made you to stand tall. Stand tall.

Davy C Rockett

http://www.thelibertypost.com
http://screamfreedom.blogspot.com
http://christianquest.net

Very good post. I totally

Very good post.

I totally agree. While I am Christian, I am not religious. Organized religion, as far as I can tell, is one of the most destructive forces on this planet.

The funny thing is, prior to hearing about Ron Paul, I was, I guess you'd say, atheist. Since hearing of Ron Paul and learning about everything else that is happening around us, I have taken the time to read the Bible, as well as, accept and believe what is written in it. And, having read it, it appears to me that nearly every organized religion's work's is contrary to what is written in that book.

I think what really needs to be understood is the difference between Spirituality and Religion. As far as I can tell, Religion has been corrupted and/or usurped long, long ago.

very well said.. I agree! as

very well said.. I agree!

as for me and my home, we shall worship the LORD

“A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on, and are punished.” (Prov. 22:3; 27:12 KJV)

Hey McCain-----┌П┐(◣_◢)┌П┐

Just my mindset

As an undogmatic Christian I consider spiritual life a fact. But I deeply distrust organized forms of religion.

Dr. Paul cured my apathy

Ron Paul was right

AMEN!!!

Bump!

LIKE SHOOTING FISH IN A BARREL!
Drowning in debt? About to be eaten
alive by sharks? Jump in the lifeboat
right NOW! Free to join!
http://adv.justbeenpaid.com/?r=strikeforce&p=jsstripler5

BOTH

Freedom to do both is why we are all here!

Tolerance is the virtue of the man who no longer has anything to believe in....

Okay,

So, let me get this perfectly straight, because the answer seems clear from the OP and many of the comments on this thread.

The general consensus among the "anti-Bible" crowd here is based, not on whether any actual laws or regulations are made that establish religion, but that Christians are not to be allowed to have opinions which do not provide approval for the actions of others. It's not enough to merely not make laws which establish religion, but now it is important that nobody disapproves or can form opinions regarding others' actions.

Now, many of the posts below support exactly that premise.
I want them to make this clear, so that there is no doubt.
Proseletyzing, personal disapprovals of certain actions, beliefs in certain moral codes, even if not codified into law and only held as personal POV, should not be allowed, and anything pertaining even peripherally to this religion should not be taught to children, publicly or privately, or it is considered some form of "child abuse"(which reeks of approval of gov't force to "correct").

And that is exactly what I have suspected for quite some time, based on many posters' comments on this forum, and which has grossly lowered my opinion of the "Libertarian" positions as massively hypocritical in general, and is not even limited to this particular topic.
This is not at all about "freedom of religion", because religion is clearly not being imposed by law on anybody in the US.
However, what is clear is that there is a certain element which desires to suppress certain religious beliefs because the religions don't condone their moral(or immoral/amoral as the case may be) preferences.

Now, it is a very different thing to make laws regarding religion, which is protected against by the 1st Amendment, and another thing entirely to decide that YOUR personal preference MUST be approved by everyone else. It seems to be quite okay to proselytize what you like, but not what other people like, teach in schools what you like, but not what other people like, etc. This is "political correctness".

Again it is illustrated to me, as has been demonstrated over and over again, that the "Libertarian" philosophies are attractive platitudes iin principle and quite narrow and slanted dogma in deed. Claiming to be one thing, and actually being something else entirely. A sham.

So, what is glaringly apparent in this thread is that the Constitution is for atheists, and Christians should shut up and have no rights to freedom of expression and religion as the 1st Amendment states. Apparently the "new Libertarian 1st Amendment" which they have decided to put into place, now requires "approval from all others" for their preferred actions. A new "right to require approved by others, but only for atheists, and Christians need not apply". Interesting.

Please step up, Libertarian atheist apologists, and explain to me how requiring approval from others for your desired actions, outside the frame of federal law, has anything to do with the Constitution?
Show me where in the Constitution you have the right to require another's approval for your actions, including using force of gov't to enforce it, which some here seem so keen to do.
I'd be very interested in hearing the responses.

The general consensus among

The general consensus among the "anti-Bible" crowd here is based, not on whether any actual laws or regulations are made that establish religion, but that Christians are not to be allowed to have opinions which do not provide approval for the actions of others. It's not enough to merely not make laws which establish religion, but now it is important that nobody disapproves or can form opinions regarding others' actions.

Incorrect.

The desire of unbelievers is to have an equal voice and to be equally respected. This is strongly resisted by theists, just as they resist giving equal rights to gays, etc. They want to maintain their privileged position in society, which they have always enjoyed. Whenever some minority voice cries out for equality, those at the top of the mountain refuse to give up any ground. It's the same whether it be heterosexuals clinging to the high ground and denying any to homosexuals, or whites denying it to blacks, or the rich denying it to the poor, or men denying it to women, or theists denying it to atheists, etc. This is a matter of elitism, and the struggle to dismantle it.

----------
Liberty for Dummies

I see.

Very interesting.

So, your response there seems to buttress my posted premise that this is not a Constitutional or legal issue, but a social "respect" issue.
And as such, each person does have his own right to think and believe as he sees fit(including disapproval), even if for seemingly irrational reasons as viewed by onlookers of another stripe.

Thank you for your thoughtful response .

Thank You BigT..

And may I say you seem quite tense today. I'm running a nice Hades Special in my spa this week..

A nice hot lava massage with a burning ember rubdown should make you feel saucy again.

And I'll even comp you dinner..The sauteed dictator is phenomenal! Highly recommended, by us demons, I assure you.

-----------------------

Get in line. No pushing, no shoving. All souls are taken one at a time, in the order in which they are recieved.

Thank you.

-----------------------

Get in line. No pushing, no shoving. All souls are taken one at a time, in the order in which they are recieved.

Thank you.

are you saying I have to support one or the other

I don't think Manny would like knowing your trying to force people to chose. I know he does not share your ideas and would not wish to lose the Christian support this site has gained for Ron Paul in the last year. I do not have to chose one or the other I can do both. I believe my rights are unaleinable and that goes just fine with my bible. The mob in America have already been talked into believing there rights come through themselves. The mob has already sold their rights to the higest bidder so my question to you is at what price will you sell your self held rights. If you wish to purchase mine your going to have to talk to God. I do not have the authority to give mine up or sell them even if I wanted to. I don't think he will trade the ones I have now for these self held ones you seem to be preaching. Also do you get like a free rights safe to lock them up in if you make the deal. I mean you get free gifts for transfering your banking account you should get one when you trade away superior rights for UN rights shouldn't you. I mean the UN has purchased these peoples self held rights far and square. So what is your price?

Fighting for the constitution will give you the freedom

to read the bible. So fighting for the constitution wins freedom to keep the right to pursue the bible or spiritual path...

Nice answer elif.

___________

Lisa C.

“Elections are short term efforts; revolutions are long term projects.”

--Ron Paul

Join the rEVOLution here: http://www.campaignforliberty.com/

Ron Paul "Sign Wave Across the USA" -- November 5th!

without the bible

there would be no Constitution.

Simple

Simple nonsense.

----------
Liberty for Dummies

Without Thomas Paine's "Age of Reason" there would be no

Constitution.

___________

Lisa C.

“Elections are short term efforts; revolutions are long term projects.”

--Ron Paul

Join the rEVOLution here: http://www.campaignforliberty.com/

Ron Paul "Sign Wave Across the USA" -- November 5th!

It is quite telling how

It is quite telling how Paine was a bestseller during the 18th century enlightenment that gave us our secular republic, while today most Americans have never even heard of him and we're sliding towards theocracy.

----------
Liberty for Dummies

It's very telling but not very surprising.

___________

Lisa C.

“Elections are short term efforts; revolutions are long term projects.”

--Ron Paul

Join the rEVOLution here: http://www.campaignforliberty.com/

Ron Paul "Sign Wave Across the USA" -- November 5th!

Oooo Christopherx..Satan here..

You've been a naughty boy in not giving me equal time.

It's okay. I'll have a signed copy of the Necrimonicon sent to you.

*muah*

-----------------------

Get in line. No pushing, no shoving. All souls are taken one at a time, in the order in which they are recieved.

Thank you.

-----------------------

Get in line. No pushing, no shoving. All souls are taken one at a time, in the order in which they are recieved.

Thank you.

sorry...my soul is...

married to another....

Act 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

2Chronicles 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

This is what I'm talking

This is what I'm talking about. As long as I continue to see Bible verses posted here, I'm going to continue lambasting it for what it is: the ancient mythologies of cruel and ignorant people.

----------
Liberty for Dummies

Then your part of the

Then your part of the problem. You don't have a right to tell people what they can or can't post. You have a right to not read what you don't want to.

I am not religious although I used to be, but now my religion is truth wherever it leads if I had to define it. The more I learn the more I realize how little I really know about our creation etc. People who think they have it figured out as I used to are really in for a shock at some future point.

However I see people on both sides bashing each other. Here is a novel idea for both sides take responsibility for what you choose to read, and choose not to read that which you don't like and quit going all militant trying to brow beat others to only post what you want to hear and knock the bickering off.

We're all Americans protected under the principals of the constitution. Free to believe, or not believe, act or not act however we like as long as we don't infringe on the rights of others or harm them by our actions. Isn't it about time we start acting like it instead of condemning each other over our differences?

When I went to our state convention I stayed in house with about 14 other people and one of the things I learned and was pleasantly surprised at was how like minded we all were on so many things despite our varied backgrounds and varied ages even. Sure we had some differences but nobody cared because we agreed on much more then we differed.

-----
Prepare For the Coming Storms, Join New FreelandersSelf Reliance & Preparedness Forums

-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!

Get Prepared!

It isn't me telling people

It isn't me telling people they can't post. It's me claiming an equal voice.

This the theists cannot tolerate, but they're going to have to find a way to do so.

----------
Liberty for Dummies

It is you too, you go out of

It is you too, you go out of your way to go after Christians. You are doing the very thing you claim only they do. It's not just them. Why does it bother you so much of they express their faith? if your confident in your views it shouldn't bother at all. As I said there are militant on both sides and even though you don't seem to realize it you are one and perpetuate the ridicules argument between the two factions.

And it's only a few in each group not in general. I can argue circles around Christians on the bible because I know it and it's history much better then the majority of them, and I used to do that but realized it was futile and never accomplished anything.

And I even still consider myself a follower of Christ because he taught many true principles but I am by no means what a modern traditional Christian would consider a Christian and would not call myself one either to avoid being associated with what most people assign to that label. As I said I seek truth wherever it is found and where ever it leads and I don't believe the bible has a monopoly on truth like most Christians do. It has some real crap in it also.

People who think it is the inerrant word of God need to study some real history of its' origins. It has some real pearl of wisdom in it but as I said it has some real crap in it also.
-----
Prepare For the Coming Storms, Join New FreelandersSelf Reliance & Preparedness Forums

-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!

Get Prepared!

Of course I'm doing the same

Of course I'm doing the same thing they do! That's the point!

You would no doubt tell me that two wrongs don't make a right, then continue doing wrong yourself. That's just the sort of guilt-trip that theists have always used to keep atheists silent. Well, some of us are not putting up with it any more.

If theists want it to stop, they have to make the first move, since they were the ones who started pushing their beliefs on others. I'm going to continue fighting against that as long as it continues.

----------
Liberty for Dummies

You just don't seem to get

You just don't seem to get it. You act like you're still in 3rd grade yelling he started it. I have seen atheist start it just as often. Why do "they" have to make the first move? the point is somebody needs to stop it. Why don't you be the bigger man and just stop it yourself?

-----
Prepare For the Coming Storms, Join New FreelandersSelf Reliance & Preparedness Forums

-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!

Get Prepared!

Thank you for illustrating

Thank you for illustrating my point.

----------
Liberty for Dummies

My point is you are myopic

My point is you are myopic in believing it is "they" who only attack atheist first and poor picked on atheist such as yourself just mind their own business until they are forced to defend themselves from the evil atheist hating Christians. If that was your point then your welcome, but I must have missed it in your narcissistic victim hooded attention seeking posts...

-----
Prepare For the Coming Storms, Join New FreelandersSelf Reliance & Preparedness Forums

-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!

Get Prepared!

Thanks

Thanks again.

----------
Liberty for Dummies

LOL! Your welcome

LOL! Your welcome again...Oops I just prevented you from getting the last word now you have to post again, sorry go ahead...

-----
Prepare For the Coming Storms, Join New FreelandersSelf Reliance & Preparedness Forums

-----
End The Fat
70 pounds lost and counting! Get in shape for the revolution!

Get Prepared!