Is the R3VOLUTION a "cult of personality"?
Submitted by Minarchist on Fri, 05/30/2008 - 19:02
Is the R3VOLUTION a "cult of personality"?
I assumed the R3VOLUTION was about the ideas that Ron Paul happened to support, but for many here it seems to be more about the man and his personality than the ideas. That's a cult of personality.
Every time I read something referring to "our leader", I cringe. I suspect Ron Paul does too.
And the posts about not supporting so-and-so unless (of course) "our leader" endorses him is nothing short of pathetic (not to mention collectivist).
Wake up, people. Think for yourselves. Don't be sheeple, followers of "our leader", Ron Paul. Blech!
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So, who else is running for President?
Isn't President the position we're aiming to vote for?
You know what makes me throw up? Anarchists and minarchists. They are all are under the delusion that somehow living under no government means living under no rule and they totally miss the point that the unscrupulous few will victimize the moral many without a rule of law. They don't see that the end result of anarchy is always collectivism.
Individual rights protected by a rule of law is the only way to ensure sovereignty in this world.
If you are against Ron Paul's policies then let us know what exactly you're against. If you are against us supporting the only Presidential candidate with proven morals then you are barking up the wrong tree. This site is for "Restoring the Constitutional Government of the United States" Look on the banner if you don't believe me.
http://killfiat.blogspot.com/
minarchists are not anarchists
Minarchists are not anarchists precisely because they recognize that SOME government is necessary to establish and maintain a civilized society, and that if you don't have a strong Constitutional government in place, then eventually collectivism will result.
Ron Paul IS a minarchist, and, presumably, so are all of his supporters. If they're not , then they don't understand what they are supporting.
"Know what you know, know what you don't know, and understand and appreciate the distinction."
Advocating for minarchical libertarianism since 1984...
"Know what you know, know what you don't know, and understand and appreciate the distinction."
Minarchism
track
It is so refreshing
to have a leader in whom I trust...please let me bask in his warmth and integrity for just a few more months. It may never happen again.
basking: good; following: not so good
Hey, I'm all for basking in his warmth and integrity, I just think it's totally missing the whole point of what he's saying to refer to Ron Paul as "our leader", or to look to him for "marching orders", and, in general, to decide what to think based on what he says (including in particular whether to support some candidate or not based on whether Ron Paul endorses him or not).
"Know what you know, know what you don't know, and understand and appreciate the distinction."
Advocating for minarchical libertarianism since 1984...
"Know what you know, know what you don't know, and understand and appreciate the distinction."
Minarchism
track
are you kidding me? The
are you kidding me? The President of The United States is considered a leader. Elected officials are considered our leader. We put them in that position and count on them to "represent" on our behalf. Duh. To suggest that that makes us members of a cult or cult like in personality(understanding the difference) is juvenile and shallow thinking. This is traditionally a time we look to the leadership for guidance. It takes no measure of our own sense of self and of what needs to be accomplished in our own power away from us. The ravages of war that established our freedom set the precident for the understood need for strong leadership. A house divided against itself, etc.
Dr. Paul's words are in alot of people's mouths and for the first time many have come to understand the principle's of our Founding Fathers. With knowledge comes power and the entusiasm is contagious and should be shared without the fear someone may make useless comments such as yours.
I think many here have displayed the abililty to "think for themselves". Asking questions, gathering information and making informed comments.
We are not a cult, we are champions of the Constitution who understand the dire need for transparency and urgency in the actions of our "leaders". No problem with that. We are a reflection of the greatness of the "Information Age".
"...the most memorable concern of mankind
is the guts it takes to
face the sunlight again."-Charles Bukowski
Dr. Paul has made the point several times
that the President is the leader of the MILITARY, but not "the people. " A free society has no leader. A rational, mature, person doesn't view anyone but himself as his leader. A large component of the whole idea behind the American Revolution and the establishment of the U.S. was the rejection of the idea of leaders. Calling Dr. Paul, or anyone in government as "our leader" is an insult to all that he's about and stands for.
mmm...I'll think about that
mmm...I'll think about that for alittle while....but your right he did say that...
"...the most memorable concern of mankind
is the guts it takes to
face the sunlight again."-Charles Bukowski
...
I know that people don't even think about it when they refer to people in our government as "our leaders," but I don't think it's psychologically healthy. It comes from a primordial tribal mentality that we need to break out of, if we're going to evolve.
Billy Dee: Best post I've seen in a long time here
Thank you, Billy Dee. This is the best post I've seen here in a long time. Concise, clear, thought-provoking and right on.
Speaking of tribalism being alive and well in our culture, other evidence of that includes the overwhelming percentage of the Hispanic community that prefers Hillary over Obama, and the domination by "white guys" in our R3VOLUTION. I'm not sure why the message of liberty does not seem to appeal nearly as much to women and non-whites, but there it is.
"Know what you know, know what you don't know, and understand and appreciate the distinction."
Advocating for minarchical libertarianism since 1984...
"Know what you know, know what you don't know, and understand and appreciate the distinction."
Minarchism
track
If any other 'leader' speaks the truth
I will consider 'following, supporting, learning from' that person. Until then all the other choices out there have proven to be lacking... and call all go f*ck themselves.
This thread is meant to be divisive. It doesn't even make a point. It just wants to nit-pick apart someones resolve.
Don't fall for this BS. Ron Paul says what he means and means what he says. He is the only true choice. BECAUSE he follows the constitution.
If a ham sandwich would commit to the constitution absolutely, it'd have my vote over any of the other candidates.
Aku Soku Zan
Aku Soku Zan
This thread is meant to be divisive? ABSOLUTELY NOT.
As the starter of this thread, I resent the claim that it was meant to be divisive. Not at all. Thought-provoking? Absolutely. Divisive? Absolutely not.
How many times has Ron Paul himself pointed out that the Revolution goes way beyond him, that he is not our leader, etc., etc.? Why is it divisive to point this out?
What I'm concerned about is that if the R3VOLUTION is a cult of personality, then it will burn out once Ron Paul exits stage left. What we need to do - and this is the point of Ron Paul's book - is to rally around the ideas and message of liberty, and not around him. It should not be considered "divisive" to point this out.
"Know what you know, know what you don't know, and understand and appreciate the distinction."
Advocating for minarchical libertarianism since 1984...
"Know what you know, know what you don't know, and understand and appreciate the distinction."
Minarchism
track
Of course not!
And to say that we are a cult is just another example of believing the mainstream media propaganda.
A cult is a group of people who mindlessly follow a charismatic leader. I can hardly think of a group LESS cult-like than the so-called Ron Paul movement.
And I can hardly imagine a "leader" less charismatic or less controlling than Ron Paul. ( I defy anyone to give an example of Ron Paul exhibiting any of the characteristics typical of a cult leader that are not true for ANY politician, and usually to a much greater extent).
In fact, one of the great weaknesses of our movement is the fact that no one, including most notably Ron Paul, has given us direction or organized our efforts.
Anyone who has tried to get Ron Paul or his national campaign to exert some leadership can attest to that.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive."
P.S.
And by the way, the reason the MSM would like to smear us as a cult is that that is their only hope of explaining away our extraordinary enthusiasm.
"Oh they are just another cult" is what they desperately want the public to think.
They NEED to continue to marginalize us for fear that the public might want to investigate WHY we are so committed.
And then they might discover the truth, and the truth is a whole lot more significant than how wonderful Ron Paul is.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive."
Over The Long Haul....
....I believe refusal to give us direction, and organize our efforts will prove to be our strength.
LEADERSHIP:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhsI_xBsue4&feature=related
This is an important discussion as we come to grips with our personal responsibility in the strategy and tactics of this phase for the rEVOLution.
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/49666#comment-494624
It is about the revolution embracing people of character and courage who will lead the sheep and help us face our enemies, and who won't betray our principles.
Here are some thoughts by other people. What are Yours ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4lko1LuJ2o&feature=related
Think for yourself….its worth reflecting upon:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WJk1jBM15I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tDUGR3epDM&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ts5eFeK5IeA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDp87fxfXoM&feature=related
Our First War Was A Secession, Not A Revolution
Although the idea of secession has enjoyed a considerable comeback in recent years, the idea still has to catch on with many conservatives who consider themselves "patriotic" in the old sense... For them, loyalty to the idea of "America" has managed to take precedence over the idea of "liberty."
This attitude invariably leads to rationalization that secession is too radical an idea and any talk of it is simply treason...Unbeknownst to many, the most famous and articulate secessionists in American history are not folks with names like Robert E. Lee and Jefferson Davis, but people with names like George Washington and Benjamin Franklin.
“The Conservatism of Secession,” by Ryan McMaken, Lewrockwell.com, 12/1/00
Control Tactic.
Try to make people feel bad for supporting someone by saying it's cult-like. Don't make me laugh. The same thing could be said for Obama, Oprah, and Al Gore and all his global warming could only be caused by pollution BS. In fact, I'm absolutely sure that the founders of this country fit the definition of a cult. So what? I don't think any of us are going to dress in purple, put a triangle on our chest, drink poison and wait for the comet to pick us up.
yes
Fortune Favors the Bold
but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Like MLK or Gandhi, the name "Ron Paul" has become synomous with a larger movement, based on a set of ideas and principles.
Note that the term "cult of personality" does not have the same meaning as the term "cult"
Fortune Favors the Bold
it is frankly
Fortune Favors the Bold
useful to have a unifying symbolic figure for a movement, especially one made up of such diverse and eclectic elements as this
Fortune Favors the Bold
Führer
As a german citizen, I`m a little bit surprised that you Americans seem to have the same ridiculous discussions.
In German "leader" is translated "Führer" and because Hitler called himself that way (and so did his followers), the term "leader" (in german) is considered somewhat politically-incorrect. Many People feel the need to say something else, whenever possible (they prefer to say it is not the "leader of movement or party xy", but "chairman" or something like that).
I`m really glad Hitler did not have kids. Just think about how the word "Dad" might sound to us today ;-)
Anyway...I thought only we Germans had such "problems".
To think that the sympathy for that great man Ron Paul could be such thing as a nefarious "personality cult" is somehow bizzare to me.
Some people might be very enthusiastic (after all, when did they have the chance to support a man like him in their lifetime?), but it does not seem "dangerous" to me.
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europe4ronpaul.blogspot.com
Hasta la libertad, siempre ;-)
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bavaria-for-ron-paul.blogspot.com
Hasta la libertad, siempre ;-)
You're right, Ron Paul
is not dangerous. The "cult" business is just the tyrannically-minded opposition working overtime to discredit him and other liberty lovers. Paul does not try to run other people's lives; he calls for the opposite of bloodshed, final solutions, ovens, and the IRS and TSA.
It’s called a “figure of speech.”
Lighten up. My family and I have been constitutionalists for 30 years, but most of the people on here had this idea introduced to them by Ron Paul.
I probably admire him at least as much as most of the individuals here. We're currently focused on trying to get Ron Paul elected (the very reason for this Web site). Lovers of liberty use this site to stay in communication, which is outstanding. Paul has a slim shot, but you never know… In 1972 a major brain operation was performed on me. I had an absolute 0% chance of living, but I’m still here.
The process of gettiing back the republic from selfish Capitol Hill power addicts will be lots of hard work. By and large, the communication I see on this site is a good start to something wonderful. They’re thinking—hard! That’s a good thing.
I certainly have no right to tell you not to wonder about the cult thing...I wouldn’t even want to. In fact I admire you for doing so. It shows you’re thinking. I like that. This planet needs more thinkers.
But please don’t get hung up on catch phrases. I’ve found that such things usually breed simple mindedness and gullibility.
Have a nice day. {:– )
--Cliff, Sioux City, Iowa
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Facebook Political Group
I thought RP's stance on all issues were based on the con-
stitution???whats not to like ???Me I look for the smartest man in the room and do my best to shut my mouth and open my ears!RP is that guy in the room,not even to mention honor! If there is a cult of personality im glad its surrounds RP!WE ARE VERY FORTUNATE TO KNOW RP AND GET THE MESSAGE FROM SUCH A STRONG MAN WITH THE MOST AMERICAN MESSAGE I HAVE EVER HEARD,SO GIVE US SOME SWAY THE MAN IS A LEGEND IN HIS OWN TIME !SO WAIT YOU WILL SEE RP WILL BE BIGGER THEN JFK,MLK,RFK AS FAR AS POLICY IS CONCERNEND(NOT KNOCKIN THEM 3 RP IS JUST ALL IN 1!!!AND HE IS NOT A SOCIALIST LIKE THEM 3 HEROS WERE! There are none so blind as those who will not see!
There are none so blind as those who will not see!
Even though I adore Ron Paul
Even though I adore Ron Paul I don't agree with all his political views. But he is the best spokesperson on the scene today pushing for liberty. His wise old soft spoken grandfatherly ways inspire trust and confidence in our cause. Respecting him for his life of dedication to liberty doesn't mean we suspend our own judgment but since he has been so instrumental in the spread of the "Ron Paul Revolution" I believe there is nothing wrong with considering his views regarding strategy for the movement. As long as our principles are upheld there is nothing wrong with trying to present a unified opposition to power just as there is nothing wtong with each person fighting for freedom in the way that best suits them.
marlow
marlow
I strongly disagree with one
I strongly disagree with one thing Dr. Paul says: His insistence that his foreign policy is synonymous with the traditions of the Republican Party.
If you consider the traditions of TWO MEN--Barry Goldwater and Robert Taft--the ideological base of a party that has existed for 148 years, that is sort of, theoretically, true.
Sort of.
Not really.
The foreign policy of Lincoln was the real Republican foreign policy in action.
SUPPORT OUR FOUNDERS' AMERICA
Support the Constitution of the United States
SUPPORT OUR FOUNDERS' AMERICA
Support the Constitution of the United States
Are you sure it wasn't
Are you sure it wasn't Jefferson?
"It is like a finger pointing away to the moon, don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all the heavenly glory." - Bruce Lee
http://www.bmvgroupinc.com/ Never tie your shoes again. Ever! While helping me get to St.Paul!
"But, indeed, no private person has a right to complain, by suit in court, on the ground of a breach of the Constitution. The Constitution it is true, is a compact, but he is not a party to it."
So when did foriegn policy actually matter when lincoln was in
office were they shooting muskets across the ocean???,i wonder how fast them sailboats were???,did assault rifles exsist???Did horses pull the abrhams tanks??,my point is who cares what lincoln did, lets talk about ww,fdr,ike or lbj now they knew how to kill huh?oh i almost forgot we were talking about constitutional foriegn policy not military ind complex foriegn policy.There are none so blind as those who will not see!
ps ike did not even know what city they bombed first in japan his diary is wrong he was a farmer torn from obscurity ,a good old boy huh??how many of them were democraps?ww,fdr,lbj i think not sure about ike though
There are none so blind as those who will not see!
Agreed
Well said, marlow. Of course there is nothing wrong with considering Ron Paul's views regarding strategy for the movement. I hope your views and my views are considered as well.
And I agree the key is to have our principles upheld. What I'm not so sure about is whether we have understanding and consensus about what those principles are. That's the direction Ron Paul is trying to take the movement with his book, however, and that's where I'd like to see this forum going.
"Know what you know, know what you don't know, and understand and appreciate the distinction."
Advocating for minarchical libertarianism since 1984...
"Know what you know, know what you don't know, and understand and appreciate the distinction."
Minarchism
track
deleted
oops, posted wrong place
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I think there are two sets of people involved
There are pre-existing libertarians who supported Paul and have been supporting other libertarians and libertarian-minded people before Paul's candidacy, and then there are people new to the whole thing and whose first real exposure to libertarian ideas is from Ron Paul.
These latter people are where I think most of the cultists are. They see him as some sort of prophet and leader, when in reality he's just saying stuff that other libertarians have been saying for a long time. It's great that he's exposing people to these ideas, but hopefully they can see that they didn't originate with him (as he's been trying to get across). He's just the messenger, and he's just giving his personal interpretation of liberty.
It's ok to disagree with Dr. Paul on particular issues. It's ok to think for yourself. In fact, if anyone agrees with Dr. Paul 100% on everything, I would suspect that there's something psychologically wrong with that person because they're just modeling themselves on him and denying their own individuality. What differentiates us as different people is that we don't have identical beliefs.
What I respect about Dr. Paul is that he is always trying to make it clear that he doesn't want to lead us. He expresses admiration that the Revolution is spontaneously organized. He says over and over that the Revolution is not about him. He often says things like "Thank you for inviting me to the Revolution." The Revolution existed before he came along. And that Revolution has no leader, because it's very foundation is the pursuit of the liberty of the individual to lead himself.
Thanks BillyDee!
I translated your answer into german and put it on my german blog (bavaria-for-ron-paul) because it perfectly expresses what makes this Revolution so special.
I hope it`s ok (I guess so...)!
--------------------------------------
europe4ronpaul.blogspot.com
Hasta la libertad, siempre ;-)
--------------------------------------
bavaria-for-ron-paul.blogspot.com
Hasta la libertad, siempre ;-)