The "Logic" of why Bob Barr voted for the 'patriot act'
The following is an exchange with Barr supporter 'BillyDee' on why Bob Barr voted for the 'patriot act.'
On June 6th, 2008 docholladay says:
Barr VOTED FOR THE PATRIOT ACT AND THE IRAQ WAR. That makes him an enemy of liberty, and no amount of 'spin' or apologitics will make that go away.
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He voted for the Patriot Act in order to water it down
On June 6th, 2008 BillyDee says:
He voted for it, because that was the only way he could get on the committee to water it down: It was going to pass anyway, without his vote, so that was the rational thing to do. He should be commended and thanked.
By the way, I'm glad you like my quote. I'm very quotable aren't I?
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On June 6th, 2008 docholladay says:
Yes, quotable alright..... so was Hitler and Stalin. To say Barr or ANYONE should be thanked for voting for a piece of leglistation that is one of the worst assults on freedom in American history is like saying that Hitler should be thanked for the holocost. Who knows..... some other 'worse' tyrant might have come along and killed even more Jews if not for Hitler. You are beyond reason.
"Doc" Holladay
Nashville, TN
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You don't get it do you?
On June 6th, 2008 BillyDee says:
It was going to pass anyway, because it had overwhelming support. His one vote didn't cause it to pass. Rather, his one vote allowed him to alter it to make it less restrictive of liberty.
You apparently have no concept of rationality. If the goal is to maximize liberty in our society, then you do what reason requires to bring about a freer society. Before you take an action, you ask yourself if it is going to increase liberty, if so, then you do it. It's that simple.
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On June 6th, 2008 docholladay says:
So why did Dr. Paul vote "NO"? Is Ron Paul wrong? He just isn't that cunning or smart? I'd really like to hear why his voting NO was such a irrational thing to do. I'll be eagerly awaiting your answer.
"Doc" Holladay
Nashville, TN
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I don't know the details
On June 6th, 2008 BillyDee says:
but, if he had the opportunity to get on the committee to water down the Act by voting yes, then that's what he should have done. He possibly could have brought it into accordance with the Constitution. Yes, it is possible for Paul to act irrationally at times, as it is for all humans.
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On June 6th, 2008 docholladay says:
How, exactly, could the 'patriot act' be brought into accordance with the Constitution? I want a specific explanation, no bullsh#t runaround... Please... oh wise one, how?
"Doc" Holladay
Nashville, TN
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By
On June 6th, 2008 BillyDee says:
removing the unconstitutional elements of it.
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On June 6th, 2008 docholladay says:
Which elements ARE Constitutional? If you removed all the unconstitutional elements, you'd have a blank sheet of paper.... OR, you could just vote "NO" like Dr. Paul did. C'mon. Get specific, Billy Dee. Which parts of the patriot act shoud be kept?
I'm still waiting on an answer......
I guess time will tell
Mr. Barr's true intentions. If he is a true libertarian then it will be shown by his actions not just his words. It doesn't matter what Ron Paul supporters do
or think. I hope the libertarians are happy with their choice and I wish them well. Peace
Prepare & Share the Message of Freedom through Positive-Peaceful-Activism.
Anti Barr People
They seem like the worse elements of Pauls support. They blindly hate Barr for his war vote and patriot act vote. The war thing it very damaging in my eyes. But I look at his current position. I know about the patriot act vote and why he did it.
I can see why many will not vote for him. But to many want to stiffle anybody who does want to. I think they are the ones who destroyed Paul in the beginning with death threats and slander to reporters around the country.
Barr won't get my vote ... here's why
He's been married THREE times ... refused to pay child support to the first two wives. Do you actually think that a guy who treats those whom he's supposed to love and protect like that can be expected to treat us any better???
Next week I'm going to get in touch with the CONSTITUTION PARTY, which kept a place open for Ron Paul (who declined the invitation). They are running Chuck Baldwin, a most moral and trustworthy man. He's written plenty, so you can check him out.
As far as I can tell, a whole lot of Dems won't be voting for Obama, a whole lot of Repubs can't stand McCain, and a whole lot of Libertarians believe the Libertarian party sold out to run Barr. Apparently, they think he's an "establishment" candidate. WHY WOULD ANY OF US FALL FOR ANOTHER CHEAP ESTABLISHMENT TRICK? Haven't we learned our lessons well enough yet?
Some states won't permit a former candidate for president to switch party affiliations in order to run for president in the general election. So, Paul would not be permitted on the ballot in some states (I don't know how many). Perhaps this was a consideration when he declined the Constitution Party offer. Another consideration was that he would be kicked out of the Repub Party and not be permitted to run as a Repub for his congressional seat. Hindsight being 20/20, I bet he regrets that decision now.
However, who could have known how things would turn out? I think that if we support a solid candidate ... one whom people instinctively trust ... there's a real chance for a mightly big upset and a new party.
We should all be helping the Constitution Party get on the ballots in every state possible. Check them out at www.constitutionparty.com. Meanwhile, we should also stay plugged into the Republican Party, which may be ripe for a takeover. .
actually the people who jumped ship for Barr prior to the RNC
only to come back to Ron Pauls site to troll for support and cause division are the same ones who embarassed us looking for a legal excuse to riot and be public nuisances in the beginning. They were clueless as to why they were supporting Ron Paul then, now theyre clueless as to why they are supporting Bob Barr now and theyre doing the same thing to Bob Barr's reputation as they did to Ron Paul's.
Although I am not aware
of exactly how it came about, I understand that Mr. Barr was the one responsible for the sunset clauses being inserted into the act. Perhaps his commiting to vote for the act was the only way he could put himself into a position to accomplish that?
Maybe someone here knows or may know how to find out?
This seems like a pointless argument between competing pro and con factions without some specific facts being placed into the discussion. There are obviously questions. Let's see if we can find some answers, shall we?
"BillyDee" is onevoiceofreason's latest divisive acct name.
He wanted to use "Bill DeBurgh" but thought that may be too obvious. "Billy D." sounded bland so he opted for "BillyDee". He goes by "B dawg" over at the Obama forum & "BillyDeepends" at McCain's forum.
Guys, can we just ignore the bids for other Pres. candidates?
Hey guys, how's about we start ignoring all the posts by those who want to push their candidates & have already been allowed to do some damage here? This is Ron Paul's spot people, lets keep it focused on our real hero. For those of you who wish to join other parties, your business, but please advertise for them elsewhere. This site is for dedicated Ron Paul supporters-thanks for respecting that.
one thing
Where is the proof?
I understand the possible logic, but what proof of his actions?
Saint Paul once said that
Saint Paul once said that anything, even if it was for the greater good, was still evil and shouldn't be done.
The logic is that he's a
The logic is that he's a weasley, lying, beady eyed douche.
bump BillyDee bump
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Ron Paul Supporter Since 1997
“We have allowed our nation to be over taxed and over regulated and over run by bureaucrats, the founders would be ashamed of us for what were putting up with” Ron Paul
“We have allowed our nation to be over taxed and over regulated and overrun by bureaucrats, the founders would be ashamed of us for what we're putting up with.” Ron Paul
This exachange above can be summed up simply enough...
We all have our roles.
Now get busy living or get busy dying.
WAHOR!!
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/48994
WOW: 400,000
Wow.
There are 400,000 of you die-hard RP supporters. The good news is, that means each of you can find 399,999 people who will agree with anything you say about how wonderful RP is, or how UNwonderful everybody else is.
Compared with the 3-7 voices in your usual personal circle, that must feel downright orgasmic.
The bad news is, there are 400,000 of you. Only. 400,000.
The worst Libertarian Party presidential candidates get about that many votes every time around, and they have been considered what, earthshaking? No. Irrelevant. Like any other club who thinks that 400,000 voices is significant among 165,000,000 other potential voters.
You guys are neither the definers of the movement, nor an overwhelming segment of it. It was around long before RP woke your late-to-the-scene asses up, and it is wider than you appear willing to comprehend.
RP is not a messiah, and he is not the End-All. I do consider him a friend, but he chose the path he took when other choices were available, and he'll arrive at whatever destination that path delivers. Who knows, maybe you guys will get off your high horses and actually steal the Republican nomination?!
But if you don't, just remember that there are lots of 400,000s out there, each one divinely ordained and blessedly correct in every way, and all of them irrelevant.
You get to decide whether to start adding the numbers together or remaining isolated. Will you? Or will you just continue to emulate all those irrelevants who have gone before, comforting yourselves as you fade away in knowing that you were right and all the people you could have aligned with were not perfect enough to deserve your company?
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No one has isolated anyone
Come join in. How many people do you have signed up in your LawfulGov group you can add.
Thanks for the invite!
But I've already accepted it. 40 years ago.
I'm not the one who is late for the party. But I am one of a few who've noticed just how effectively self-sabotaging all this holier-than-thou shit really is.
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I understand how this might
I understand how this post might appear to be 'holier than thou' and that's not the intent at all. It is a result of nearly 2 weeks of constant Bob Barr spam, nearly constant spamming for 'paulitesagainsttruthers' (a CFR sponsored site, no explantation necessary), a general disregard for logic, trust, truth, and sincerity by the above mentioned individual. There's apparently no way to run this troll away, so I wanted to at the very least plainly demonstrate his way of thinking in an attempt to counter some of the damage he's been doing. It's pretty likely (and very obvious) that he is a paid Barr spammer (here almost 24/7, repeats the same pointless things over and over, and always runs when confronted with irrefutable logic.) I hate to be so aggressive, but hey, it's kinda like Ron Paul's philosophy... you go to war only to defend your borders. Our borders have been breached here at the D.P., and as long as BillyDee wants to continue to subvert liberty, push neocon candidates who voted for the "patriot act" and the Iraq war, and in general be an ass, I will continue to use his own words against him to show the absolutely nefarious nature of his presence here.
"Doc" Holladay
Nashville, TN
www.reverbnation.com/docholladaymusic
Truth is treason in an empire of lies.
Right, but...
Doc, I understand.
Billie Dee is no doubt as annoying here as too many of our own guys have been elsewhere. Which is why I doubt he's a paid shill. Bob and Ron are professional friends, more so now than in the past, and I don't think the Barr campaign has time nor energy to pick fights with friends, or friends of friends.
Zealots, on the other hand, RP's or BB's, are going to do what they will despite all entreaties for civility.
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"Zealots, on the other hand,
"Zealots, on the other hand, RP's or BB's, are going to do what they will despite all entreaties for civility."
Well, that IS actually a good point..... I certainly don't want to be a 'zealot' myself, because it inevitably leads to disregarding logic, evidence and honest investigation. I guess I'm more passionate about the MESSAGE of Ron Paul (truth, logic, rational self-interest, and personal responsibility) than even the man himself, and just hate to see someone trying their best to undermine those things for their own purposes, whatever they may be. So, having said that..... if it ends up being counterproductive, then I'll accept responsibility for that outcome and learn from it. I don't particularly enjoy beating my head against a wall... LOL
"Doc" Holladay
Nashville, TN
www.reverbnation.com/docholladaymusic
Truth is treason in an empire of lies.
well aren't you just the
well aren't you just the has-been, been there done that already kinda guy....while I reluctantly agree with most of the point your making...it's not necessary to slam patriots new to the movement...Some of us have JUST heard this stuff for the first time or have just come home to it. Perhaps it is too late, however.
"...the most memorable concern of mankind
is the guts it takes to
face the sunlight again."-Charles Bukowski
Who is slamming whom?
If you want a civil reply, make your points in a civil manner.
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to me
"Or will you just continue to emulate all those irrelevants who have gone before, comforting yourselves as you fade away in knowing that you were right and all the people you could have aligned with were not perfect enough to deserve your company?"
thats a slam
I was trying to use light hearted humor to make my point but I see your not in a funny mood. civil ha- walk your talk!
"...the most memorable concern of mankind
is the guts it takes to
face the sunlight again."-Charles Bukowski
Yes moonslippers...
aHacker is exactly what he is portraying himself as - a hack (not to mention hypocrite), who is slamming others w/ no sense of humor. :)
Obama = O.ne B.ig A.ss M.istake A.merica
Calling somebody a has-been is humorous?
I'd say it was you not reading in the proper frame of mind. Are you looking for insults? Then that is what you'll find.
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Great
So are you saying you are a Ron Paul supporter. Nothing wrong with being late to the party. It is the only one I've seen I would want to attend. I don't understand what you are complaining about.
Read the thread.
It's all there. If you don't understand, you haven't made the effort.
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I did take the effort to read it
all I can surmise from it is you are peeved because there are posts like the one above are not favorable to the group of people that come here day and night pushing Barr and trying to get us to drop RP. Talk about zealots. This is a RP supporters site. No has said he is a messiah, but he is the one we are choosing to support, and that is our right to do so.
No...
Being peeved in that manner might be the way you would take it, but don't project that onto me.
I dislike people making allegations that aren't correct within the full context. That's all.
As for this being your forum, it's public, and it gets abused like any other. You may not be one of them, but a lot of RP's supporters mindlessly spammed the entire internet for months and gave us all a bad name. It could be karma!
BTW, did you get here late? More than once people have posted here with gushing adulation that Ron Paul is our savior.
What I'm asking for is that all this factionalizing come to an end. If RP is not in the picture, then Bob Barr is your only alternative. Unless you prefer a preacher who will leverage the cult of the presidency to lean on you about religion? Because that is exactly what the CP will demand of Baldwin, mark my words. They've got Jesus in their platform and a pastor on their ticket, and they are too much interested in a religious solution.
So what will you do if the RP miracle does not manifest? Think about it: your eyes are open now, you cannot close them; the afterburn will blind you.
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Hey, I really have no interest
in debating your frame of mind when you made your post. I stated your tone and the words you used made you come across like you were peeved. I was not projecting anything or making allegations. I never said it was "my forum". I said it is a Ron Paul supporters site. (hence the name Daily Paul) that is privately owned. No, I am not new here but you may be and have never seen anyone mention RP as a "savior" or "messiah". As far as gushing well that is ok as he deserves it. the RP "miricle" has already manifested and it will go on one way or the other. My eyes have been open for a very long time and I have no intention of closing them; for in truth you can't. Don't really understand the afterburn will blind you statement. No need to explain and I hope you have a better understanding of those of us that intend on sticking with Ron Paul as long as he is in it.
Do a search
On past comments and the word savior.
Stop making statements you cannot defend.
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What ?
I did not make a statement I cannot defend. I said I have never seen a post calling RP a "messiah" or a "savior" so if there was one made I don't need to search. You show it as you are the one making the statement not me. You said the are those here posting with "gushing adulation that Ron Paul is our savior". Enough, already. I don't know what you are after really.