9/11 "Official Story" believer challenge: WTC collapse
Objects falling though gravity take the path of least resistance.
Yes? No?
Of course they do.
So, looking at the WTC towers...
Let's assume that the fires weakened the steel. (Even though there have been steel framed buildings that have burned in a firey inferno for over 24 hours that didn't collapse.) And let's assume that the floor joists gave way, allowing the top portion of the building... 20-30 or so stories to fall 1-3 stories onto the lower part of the building (the 70-80 stories that were still standing).
Now obviously, according to the official story, this weight was enough to cause a "pancake collapse", floor by floor, all the way to the bottom.
Each tower was supported by a structural core extending from its bedrock foundation to its roof. The cores were rectangular pillars with numerous large columns and girders, measuring 87 feet by 133 feet. The core structures housed the elevators, stairs, and other services. These core columns were the largest steel beams ever built at the time. The outer core beams were 54 inches wide.
Great pics here...
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/arch/core.html
Now, we've all seen the video of the collapse(s) a million times. As you see the tower with the antennae on it start to fall, you can see the antennae tilt slightly, indicating that the top half of the building didn't fall exactly straight down.
Now, my question to you people is...
Why did the whole building collapse into a pile of dust? Why did the top portion of the building not fall over to one side and fall off the bottom part of the building? Topple over? Following the past of least resistance?
Challenge #1: Why did it follow exact path of most resistance, straight down?
Challenge #2: And since it did follow the path of most resistance, why did it fall at essentially free-fall speed?
I won't ask you to change wiki... someone will just change it back.
Just explain it to me, please. I'm listening.
WTC7 has been debunked... go here to read & watch videos
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/52918
In Peace & Liberty,
Treg
Who
did the debunking, was it paid for or done by the government either directly or indirectly? If it was then I would not believe a word they say - fox gaurding the hen house. Where is an independent investigation?. Where is the investigative media? Nothing!!!! MSM = TREASON
I am gross and perverted, I'm obsessed and deranged, I have existed for years but very little has changed, I'm the tool of the government and industry too. Have you guessed me yet??
I'm the slime oozing out from your TV set.
All good and fair questions.
GO! Go find out. Do your own research. Don't just stew in your suspicions. Don't allow yourself to be "played" or "punk'd, or "duped" just because you rightfully distrust big govt.
When you find the answers, get back to me on my thread here: http://www.dailypaul.com/node/52918
I would love to know the answers.
In Peace & Liberty,
Treg
Talk about "puns"....
Did you hear where they dumped everything?? [FRESH KILLS] on Staten Island. I'm not sure thats how its spelled but I know thats what they said "FRESHKILLS" just salt on the would. Does anyone know how much time they spent looking into Pear Harbor? I don't like the label [truther] it should be [The Avengers] in search of the truth... Someday?
What you believe too be true, is true too you...
What you believe to be true, is true to you... "until you change your mind"
Ironman01 ...you wrote
"I will not be visiting your conspiracy debunked thread , because you can't debunk what I've research for years..."
So you are convinced, case closed, no open mind, nothing can change you.
All that work for nothing! You see, you put up a video, I debunk a "fact" in the first 1 minute of that film, and ...... nothing from you.
This is the problem of the "Convinced". So let me ask you, is not your "years of research" open to challenge? Are we not allowed to 2nd guess and question your "facts" ? If not, then why should anyone bother listening to you?
In Peace & Liberty,
Treg
PS, I agree that 2800 plus soldiers have died for the lie of WMD's. That 9/11 was the convienet excuse to invade saddam is true as well. 60 minutes interviewed Paul Oneil I believe, on this fact. There seems to be plenty of sources to cooberate this as true.
No Like I said , Ive been
No Like I said , Ive been researching for years...Ever since I saw our so call President sitting in that class room for almost an hour after he heard what happen that day on 9-11....So don't tell me my mind is close,I look at the Pro's and con's along time ago and indeed kept an open mind about it....But no one could explain a lot of the shit I've seen while researching this topic not even you Treg, sorry but you did not do a good job debunking anything ..That first video I posted ,"well"!, we really don't know what George Bush is referring to, so I don't trust that either(building exploding under people so they can't escape) sound a little like 9-11....I'll let that one go ....., See I have an open mind, but that does'nt mean I will take what you say as gosple truth..Or any other debunker in that case.
I'm not trying to have people listening to me...All I'm trying to do is show people there is strange things about 9-11, for example Norad and dick cheney order to call off jets to intercept those planes, or why G.W.B was sitting in that class room for so long, and why he claims he saw the first plane hitting the tower on the news when the news only had the second plane on video, and tell me why all the CCTV camera at the Pentagon was not working that day, and how a novice pilot steer that large plane through the front door of the Pentagon, also Treg why is it that a news reporter found bin Laden in the middle of bumble f@#K and our own Gov. said they cant find him, (H'mmm!!!!), and building 7 came straight down ,I'm sorry you can't debunk that one....The plane that crash in P.A had no bodies found and the weckages,"None"!!!,just little pieces thats it, no bigger then a phone book..I could go on and on, but it late and it is you that has a close mind... so i'm not going to waste my time...
See this video make a lot of sense,keep an open mind Treg when watching it.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6529813972926262623
"Observe the masses,and do the opposite."
"Observe the masses,and do the opposite."
True believers, misleading people because it feels good.
Well Iron-man01, I probably "don't do a good job debunking anything" because you refuse to read and watch and listen .....as you said yourself, you won't go to my debunking site, hence how can I to do a "good job" if you won't even go there?
Your first video has the archetic of the WTC quoted as saying the buildings where built to with stand plane hits of a 707. That one sentance is true. BUT, the movie used him, his authority, and his qoute as something to back THEIR claim that the buildings Could Not fall because it was designed to take plane hits.
As I said, context is everything. I may review a movie and say, "I can't believe they spent $9 million making this movie. It sucks Big Time" and the movie promoters quote me saying, "Big Time $9million dollar movie!" , but would you call that Misleading? Would you call that HONEST?
So Iron-man01, I researched him for you, found out what the WTC archetect really said and thought about 9/11. I put his words in context, gave you the full quotes and link to his 2002 essay. Fact, he is not a 9/11 truther. Fact, he did not say that the building COULD NOT have came down because of plane hits to the building. Indeed, they certainly COULD HAVE.
Now, where is YOUR simple honesty to saying, you know, you are right, those filmakers stretched the truth, they made it seem as if he was on the side of the argument that the video was making, they used his authority, they took him out of context. WHERE IS YOUR HONESTY SIR, on saying, you know, you are right and thank you for pointing this ONE thing out to me.
SO, fact ONE is debunked. Why should I or ANYONE bother with fact two, three, four, five, or a thousand other facts that your 9/11 truthers all string together, IF, you can't at the very least, admit just ONE fact is no longer, a "fact" in your quiver?
For everyone reading this, take note. When one fact after another is UNCOMFORTABLY challenged and removed from the table, what else is left?
Your hatred for big government and distrust of it, certainly. But the 9/11 truth conspiracy is all smoke and mirrors.
Look, even left wing Noam Chompsky does not fall for it, and millions of his leftist followers are SHOCKED and MAD at himf for not jumping on board. Look there is libertarian Penn & Teller, two Magicians who certainly know when a Trick is being Played on them or not.... they are used to doing "slieght of hand" work, heck that is how they make their living. Then there is Dr. Ron Paul himself, not a Truther, does not buy into a conspiracy.... but certainly would like a new investigation to see who BUNGLED it all: read Dick Cheney, Condi, and GW BUSH.
When we hang our hats on "evidence" that is NOT evidence, then we are being mislead or allowing ourselves to be mislead -- probably because it feels good.
I am a long time libertarian since 1979, so I hate and mistrust big govt. But I am no 9/11 Truther, and I look hard into the claims by JBS and Alex Jones types. They come up short..... long on fear and speculation, short on facts.
Go to my thread, read the debunking conspiracies sites. Its uncomfortable, yes I will agree with that. But its better to have your feet on the ground of reality and evidence, than to be going off have crazed because it Feels good. Don't be like Iron-man01, a true believer who is 100% convinced. So closed that he on the one hand, tells me to look at yet another video, but will not go to look at mine.
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/52918
In Peace & Liberty,
Treg
Asking George Bush to appoint an independent investigation...
...of 9/11 is like asking Hitler to appoint an independent investigation of the Holocaust. The magnitude of the crime warrants a much greater investigation then it received, and should be a truly independent investigation. Just the fact that evidence was destroyed so quickly should raise concern. This evidence should have been preserved for many years, this will be one of the most studied cases for the next century at least. That is normal procedure in all murder cases, preservation of evidence. This was the largest mass murder in the history of this country, yet evidence was destroyed.
Who are the liars? 9/11Truthers?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3FA8ArBA2Y&feature=related
In Peace & Liberty,
Treg
On the contrary........
Ladies and Gentleman these are the real liars.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgfzqulvhlQ
"Observe the masses,and do the opposite."
"Observe the masses,and do the opposite."
I like John Stewart. (Ironman01)
Just who is he talking about? He is talking about the administration and the neocons who support them and the MSM which goes along with the War propaganda.
So, how in anyway does this address my response to your video that YOU ASKED to be explained?
I took the time to explain to you about your video that has you convinced. I researched it for you and explained it at length. I choose the first "fact" in the first minute of the video on the designer of the WTC and what he said and DID NOT SAY, I put his statements in CONTEXT, something your precious video did not do, and I laid it all out for you.
A thank you is I think, in order, EVEN if you disagree. I am trying to reach your rational mind you see.
YET, what I get from you is that you are going to place your hands over your ears, and close your eyes to my Conspiracy Debunking Thread.....why? Because you are simply "convinced" of your "years of research". Well if you were HONESTLY researching you would want to know if your facts are holding up, or if you and many others are being played, punk'd, duped into supporting a Conspiracy for the financial benefit of the makers of the Conspiracy Theories. They get you, (and Me initially) by appealing to our already strong inclination not to Trust the MSM, the Govt, and various authority figures because we have see through other lies, (WMD's) well ahead of time. But don't let this be YOU. Keep a rational mind.
"Trust, but verify" as Ronald Reagan once said.
In Peace & Liberty,
Treg
In Peace & Liberty.
Nothing!!!, just commenting
Nothing!!!, just commenting on your Truthers are Liars post, thats all..
I don't need to thank you for pointing anything out,,(I had an open mind )
you should thank me.
"Observe the masses,and do the opposite."
"Observe the masses,and do the opposite."
Get a life.
These are highly credible people that know the official story is a fantasy.
Real Patriots for 9/11 truth -- http://patriotsquestion911.com/
Find out if you have a local militia - http://www.uaff.us/
Real Patriots for 9/11 truth -- http://patriotsquestion911.com/
Get a life.
These are highly credible people that know the official story is a fantasy.
130+ Senior Military, Intelligence Service, Law Enforcement, and Government Officials
490+ Engineers and Architects
120+ Pilots and Aviation Professionals
260+ Professors
Real Patriots for 9/11 truth -- http://patriotsquestion911.com/
Find out if you have a local militia - http://www.uaff.us/
Real Patriots for 9/11 truth -- http://patriotsquestion911.com/
Not possible
110 stories of steel building (world trade buildings 1 & 2 ) fell and as each story fell on the next if it took 1second for the pressure of the upper floors to bust the next floor causing it to fall, the time elapsed for the whole building to fall would have 110 seconds.
If it were to take 1/2 second to cause the next floor to collapse it would have collapsed in 55 seconds.
And we all know it took less than 11 seconds to collapse the entire building.
It was impossible for all the steel welding to be so softened as to allow it to collapsed so fast. It had to be demolished by explosives.
Liberty is our campaigns gift to the world it is our manifest destiny.
Freedom is a movement who's time has come. Our campaign will lead to world wide freedom.
This explains something most of us wonder about "(off subject)" www.ourcaucus.com
Liberty is our campaigns gift to the world it is our manifest destiny.
Freedom is a movement who's time has come. Our campaign will lead world wide freedom.
Roben, your reasoning is suspect, and most likely incorrect
Poke around here inside this Thread to find out why it may be so....
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/52918
In Peace & Liberty,
Treg
Dreg
The only thing suspect is you. No, that not an ad hominem, that's fact.
I suggest you change your tag to the more appropriate:
In War & Tyranny,
Dreg
"The body is but a vessel for the soul,
A puppet which bends to the soul's tyranny.
And lo, the body is not eternal,
For it must feed on the flesh of others,
Lest it return to the dust whence it came.
Therefore the soul deceives and despises."
Erm
Please explain how this supports the idea of a controlled demolition?
You're arguing that the floors would slow the fall of the top half of the building. Why would there being an explosive remove the laws of physics you're citing?
Your claim is that each floor is going to add half a second to the time, and using this as a mathematical justification for the use of explosives, except even with explosives, those floors are still there.
Unless you're arguing that each floor had perfectly timed explosives that went off before the tower fell, which doesn't seem plausible, I can't see how this would do anything towards proving your point?
Where are you getting this strange data that it would take a second or a half a second to push the air out of the rooms in the floors below? I really hope you're not building straw man arguments here. We're talking a ton of weight falling, given an entire rooms worth of time to accelerate directly downward here. I don't see the argument for how this particular "fact" would explain how the towers fell so fast.
Eric Hoffer
http://gplus.to/jamesrmoore
No doubt you like Steven Jones?
What about that "Physicist" Steven Jones?
Well lets check him out?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6fe9YlHQwA&feature=related
How about Alex Jones?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ikRc4ER2xY&feature=related
How about those Loose Change guys? Who are they?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zs5jWvu4tR8&feature=related
In Peace & Liberty,
Treg
With all due respect, these
With all due respect, these are examples of straw men. You see, you have stereotyped a group and believe them to rely on these few people for their data. While it is possible that many "truthers" do listen to these people, it is irrelevant to the question of what actually happened on 9/11.
A cursory examination of the official story reveals contradictions that cannot be remedied. Some of these include the falsities told by top officials as to their whereabouts, including even Cheney.
If you would dismount your high horse of pretended "reason" and step onto the solid ground of reality and evidence, you might develop an entirely different picture. Tell me, for example, how a lumbering commuter jet could be piloted so precisely by a man unable to fly a tiny single engine cessna, through the best protected airspace in the country (possibly the world), over an hour after the military was on high alert. And how could this amazing pilot disable the Pentagon's anti aircraft systems? If you believe the official story, you have literally 100's of questions that you need to answer. Bush's Commission certainly refused to answer them, and the victims' families decried the failure of the commission to respond to the majority of their questions.
Time to swallow your pride and start thinking objectively.
Ok I will "dismount" freedomfan08.
But would you keep your "facts" under suspicion? Make sure 100% they indeed are facts. Please poke around my thread here and see if you are indeed on "solid ground of reality and evidence".
If we both try to get there, I sure we could shake hands when we find solid ground of reality and evidence. That is certainly the place that I wish to be.
SO.... if I don't see you standing next to me, I am concerned for my fellow RP patriot.---as you should be concerned for me too.
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/52918
In Peace & Liberty,
Treg
OK, let's say we fall for the official story...
even though so much of it makes no sense.
How come no one got fired for their actions on that day?
Or for their lack of action?
$40 billion spent on defense, and box-cutter wielding men from caves in Afghanistan did this?
Where is the accountability from our defense dept?
wpsmithjr
All good and valid question. We should be demanding that head roll for 9/11. First up should be Bush and then Cheney and then Rice and then... Oh this is getting exciting.
For more on why 9/11 truthers may actually have it wrong... go here
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/52918
In Peace & Liberty,
Treg
9/11 questions
I am neither a "truther" nor an anti-"truther", but I do wonder about something in the light of theories that the government actually planned the Sept. 11 attacks, planted thermite charges to bring the buildings down, etc.
If the goal was to cause major chaos, shock and death (as clearly, if the event was orchestrated by the government, they were unruffled by causing massive civilian deaths), wouldn't it have been to their advantage to NOT have the buildings fall straight down, into their own footprints, but to topple over sideways, knocking down other buildings and causing even greater damage? Why go to all the trouble of supposedly planting bombs and thermite charges, that would have had to go off in a closely-timed sequence, when you could make the buildings fall sideways and create even more havoc?
This brings up another question that I have never heard addressed: Would it have been physically possible for the two towers to have fallen any other way? Given that they were going to fail, is it possible that they could ONLY have fallen as they did?
I welcome any responses to these questions.
My "guess" on that
would be that they felt the WTC would be plenty enough "shock and awe" and keeping it all right there was easier to contain control of the area and all the subsequent hiding and disposing of the evidence. Also minimized the number of people seeing anything after the fact. The way out of Silverstein's problem of the billion dollar repair costs is what got them the green light to use those buildings, and Silverstein took out the "terrorist insurance policy" 2 months prior to the job.. Marvin Bush ran the security for the complex, so that handled any requirement for access to plant the charges in advance.
Just my 2 cents on the subject.
Control,and disposal of the crime scene is a damn good "guess"
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"My role in the revolution is to wake up the lemmings of this country, who sit back and accept the pablum the media feeds them"
Jesse Ventura
Ventura/Paul 2008
http://www.gopeti
*********************************************
The Second Amendment
The ORIGINAL Homeland Security
That's my one question...
People talk...People always talk..I don't know how many individuals were needed to plant charges on buildings that size....but you'd think somebody would've opened their mouth by now.
_____________________________
http://forums.libertylove.org
"I have once heard that the ability to resist temptation is the truest measure of a mans character."
Dustin Hoffman to Steve McQueen
"Papillion"
How many people...
could you keep silent with the $2.3 trillion dollars that was reported missing the day before 9/11?
Let's see, that's 2300 new billionaires.
Not saying that's what happened, but I'd shut my mouth for a cool billion.
Where do you get this that $2.3 trillion is missing?
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/52918
In Peace & Liberty,
Treg
Interestingly enough
That whole issue fell to the wayside very quickly too afterwards. I guess we have so much money why investigate where a few missing trillion went.