0 votes

Ron Paul vs Bob Barr : A grand canyon size difference

While Ron Paul goes on TV to say NO to tax payer bailout of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, Bob Borring looks for "temporary" hand outs.

http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Find-Freedom.htm?At=035909&Fr...

In Peace & Liberty,

Treg




Comment viewing options

Select your preferred way to display the comments and click "Save settings" to activate your changes.

There would be massive chaos

There would be massive chaos and destroyed economies and mass starvation. I think that people needs to eliminate the Federal Reserve incrementally, to avoid as much human suffering as possible. Dr. Paul proposes we do this by starting to introduce competing currencies. Here again, Dr. Paul is an incrementalist, by wanting to save money to save the programs by cutting back military spending overseas, then gradually working to phase them out.

Grand Canyon Jeep Tours

No Obama. No McCain. No Way. No How.

That was the last line from an article about the Presidential campaign in Nevada: http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/aug/05/betting-th...

Today on 5 August there is a money bomb for Bob Barr. Please donate here: https://www.bobbarr2008.com/donate/

Thank you all for helping the Libertarian Party bring Liberty to America.

WOW...

what planet did you come from? These Bob Barr conspiracy theories keep getting more and more ridiculous. Has it ever crossed anyone's mind that....hey maybe the guy just wants to be the next president???? Huh...there's a concept

Misleading article.

Barr is for full privatization of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

He says "Government must get out of the mortgage business, but must do so in a way that least harms taxpayers and the economy. In the short-term, government has little choice but to provide an explicit but limited loan guarantee, thereby capping the public’s liability, now widely assumed to be without limit...However, the ultimate objective must be full privatization—with both organizations turned into private companies, responsible for their loan portfolios, and without access to government guarantees or other forms of support." http://www.bobbarr2008.com/press/press-releases/56/bob-barr-...

Libertarians need to be incrementalists or they're not going to get anything done.

Consider Ron Paul's position on the Federal Reserve. He is against immediate elimination of the Federal Reserve. He's for an incrementalist approach there as well, as immediate abolition would cause massive economic chaos as he has said.

----
Don't blame me if there's no voice for liberty opposing McCain and Obama in the Presidential debates. I donated to Ron Paul Libertarian, Bob Barr's campaign.

Perferred, you write:

"Libertarians need to be incrementalists or they're not going to get anything done."

You mean like Bob Barr conservatives did, comprimising thier Republican party over to NeoCons.... gee that worked out well didn't it?

No my fellow RP patriot, libertarians need to BE libertarians, period.

Libertarian arguments need to made at the University Level, and to the educated, and to the elites, and to the politically influentially involved....the rest will take care of itself.

Case in Point, see Dr. Friedman's book, "Free to Choose". Look on page 311, its there for guys just like you. There he reprints the American Socialist Platform of 1928. He wants you to read 1 thru 14 planks, and he asks you, where they successful?
Answer, YES!
Did the Socialist Party of America win an election?
Answer, Hell no.
Does that matter one bit?
Answer, Sadly NO!

You see, by sticking hard an fast to their egalitarian principles and their collectivist solutions, they changed American political history. Note: this was just one year before the tragic Black Monday in 1929 on Wall Street and the beginning of the Great Depression, Notice what happened politically. Americans looked for real answers and real changes when disaster struck.

In much the same way, Americans could look to Bob Barr and to libertarians and us inside the Revolution.

So my fellow RP Patriots, we must stick HARD and FAST to our radical vision. Leave it to others who are not as "convinced" as you and I to "compromise" our positions for us. There is no reason for us to compromise ourselves.

Let me make this 100% clear. We are NOT about "winning elections", we are ALL about the FREEDOM MESSAGE and getting America and Americans BACK onto a Constitutional Basis, a Small Government Free Trading Republic.

What do we want? What is our Radical Vision?

We want a moral and just and very small but very effective State & Federal Government that focuses only upon its 3 basic functions, ie,
Police,
Courts, and
Military DEFENSE.

These 3 basic and moral functions of Government are moral if and ONLY IF, they are based upon our inalienable Individual Rights to
Life,
Liberty and
Property.

The Government's power to govern is "good" as long as this Individual Rights Principle is honored, respected, and followed.

Government's power is "bad" the farther it deviates from this governing principle. Indeed, its 3 functions are based upon this principle of Individual Rights, that is to stop violence = Police,
to arbitrate disputes = Courts,
and to protect from invaders = Military Defense.

There will be a millions of people telling us during a crises, "yea but, shouldn't government do also this & that?" And we must answer back, NO, FOLLOW the CONSTITUTION! 3 Functions, LOW cost of Government, Free Markets, Free Trade, No Taxes, Free Market Money.

Dr Paul's answer is both in the long and Short term, we must always move towards shrinking the size and cost and power of government, as quickly as we can.

This is why Barr chooses the wrong direction, a non radical direction, from continuing the Drug War to continuing Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac. He is a typical Conservative who loves to compromise with the progressives and socialists. And he is a typical conservative who does not believe we as a people can Cure Ourselves of social ills, thus "feels the need for a law" on our personal freedoms. This is why conservatives HAVE FAILED each and every time to "preserve" Freedom remaining in this country. Since FDR nothing has been preserved and with this Bob Barr-like "temporary compromise", nothing will be either. A TRUE libertarian candidate would take the news of Freddie Mae and Freddie Mac going under as a GOOD THING. The sooner the feds are OUT of the Mortgage business, the better. We wanted it privatized, well, there you go.

No, I think Dr Paul points the right way on the Freddie mae & Freddie Mac problem, hence both Dr. Paul and Bob Barr are miles apart.

Dr Paul and the Revolution calls radical solution, and radical solution is THE SOLUTION. Compromise will kill the Freedom we want "conserved". Dr Paul was a huge fan of Dr. Milton Friedman, and especially loved his Free to Choose 10 part PBS series, first broadcast in 1980.

This country is now coming quickly to a "Crises Point". If history is any guide, its the RADICAL VISION that the public will turn too. The conservative "Herbert Hoover Compromiser" gets swept aside. To combat that from happening again and history "repeating itself", we libertarians and everyone inside the R3VOLution MUST Be RADICALS for the CONSTITUTION, RADICALS for PURE FREE TRADE, and RADICALS for HUMAN INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS.

Maybe Americans will get it right this time during our Second Great Depression. So far, Woodrow Wilson's idea to save the world for democracy is today playing itself out for the Muslim world, and World War I is about to begin with Obama playing the Wilsonian "caring democrat" that will lead this nation to a World War.

In Peace & Liberty,
Treg

Yes, please BUY this wonderful libertarian BOOK! We all must know the History of Freedom! Buy it today!

"The System of Liberty: Themes in the History of Classical Liberalism" ...by author George Smith --
Buy it Here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/05211820

I wasn't talking about

an incrementalist MESSAGE, as in promoting partial liberty or something liek that. I'm talking about incrementalist actions. Imagine if we abolished the Federal Reserve tommorow. There would be massive chaos and destroyed economies and mass starvation.

We need to eliminate the Federal Reserve incrementally, to avoid as much human suffering as possible. Dr. Paul proposes we do this by starting to introduce competing currencies.

Or imagine if we abolished all welfare payments tommorow. It would be chaos. Here again, Dr. Paul is an incrementalist, by wanting to save money to save the programs by cutting back military spending overseas, then gradually working to phase them out.

The same for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. It needs to be gradually phased over to true privatization.

----
Don't blame me if there's no voice for liberty opposing McCain and Obama in the Presidential debates. I donated to Ron Paul Libertarian, Bob Barr's campaign.

and one more thing about

and one more thing about that...

the rest will take care of itself - this means you think that only the educated elite need to be trained and taught our philosophy - that the masses will buy into it after we train the elites... you are so wrong... and your thoughts are the ones that are socialists. what you are saying is basically what Leo Strauss, the father of Neoconservatives argument, said. That only the strong and elite should know the TRUTH, the common people are too weak to understand it.

Trotskyite.

-------------------------

austinpetersen.com

The Producer says I am wrong... but how?

So you disagree with Ayn Rand and Milton Friedman then? She and he both argued the same point I believe. That it is the intellectuals who make the dinner that the rest feed on. You point out socialists and neocons also thought this. Gee, it HAS worked out WELL for them, has it not? And on to Leo Strauss, which i hear is the father of NeoCons, but as I understood it, he was for deception, or the White Lie. That part I am not for.

Now back to winning over the intellectuals. I am of the conviction that Sociobiology, neurobiology, evolutionary economics, and other Consilient Sciences will narrow down the parameters of what it means to say, Human Nature, thus various socialist & conservative political options will be described scientifically as recommending something out of the bounds of what Human Nature IS. Notice i said, "IS" as opposed to what Human Nature "ought" to be. Within this narrowing range of what Human Nature is, the political sciences will find the liberatian option with the most merrit while at the same time offering up Counter Intuitive solutions to political delemas. Further, libertarianism 2.0, that is Libertarianism based upon Evolutionary sciences, will look and feel a lot different than Libertarianism 1.0 that is the 19th & 20 century versions which held to the simplistic formula, Life, Liberty, and Property.

Indeed, getting a Doctorite in Evolutionary Politicial Economy may become the same thing as getting a Doctorate in Libertarian Political Economy. I for one, welcome the day. Several new books are the first to champion Libertarianism 2.0, and place Libertarianism squarely BACK upon sciences shoulders, specifically the biological evolutionary tie in. These books are Darwinian Politics written by Dr Paul Rubin, an Economist and a libertarian who first saw the new meanings from science and traced out its implications to libertarianism. The other book, Michael Shermer wrote Mind of the Market. I recommend everyone start there. THE MIND OF THE MARKET is simply brilliant. It says more that you think at first glance. Next, there is a third book that touches on this implication, though the author himself, like many in the neurobiology and evolutionary fields, does not like the implications of their work, are at least HONEST to point out that the direction in fully Libertarian in nature. That last book was written by MIT professor Steven Pinker, THE Blank Slate.

I would say that the Intellect Elites MUST BE WON over before the masses can be offered what to eat and drink. History seems repleat with examples of this fact. The only other fact from history that has a DEEP influence over man's economy, social structure, and so forth, is THE COST OF POWER. As in, is it expensive or is it cheap. Is it getting more expensive or getting cheaper. Whole societies can be viewed through this one lens and its explainitive power is very good. The USA and other Nation States are being eaten alive as the COST of Power decreases to the level of the individual. Indeed, today a person could possible down load from the net a rocket specs, build it, arm it, and ready a dozen or so all over the country inside of ministorages. Then, from a remote location and via the internet and GPS, launch his own private war on the IRS for example. How can a nation state defend against that? Answer, by what it is trying to do now. Real ID, full information awareness, total loss of 4th amendment rights, etc.

In short, "the common people" are too weak to understand Libertarianism. There is over 40 years of..." libertarianism to the masses".. campaigns to PROVE that point. AND JUST WHY IS THAT?

Answer: Libertarianism is 100% counter-intuitive. Thus, just like asking the COMMON PEOPLE to add a negative 9 plus a negative 3, equals a blank stare or a guess, the COMMON PEOPLE have blank stares and bad gut reactions to all libertarian positions. Why is this so? Evolutionary Economics and neurobiology leads us to a good explaination as to why this is the case. It seems a millions years of life on the Pleacene lead to "Common Sense Economics" which does not tell that Common Man why Getting Rid of the Min Wage is a GOOD thing to do for the Poor and Unemployed. These million years lead to our natural Moral Sense, for good or for bad, --- see Marc Hausers book MORAL MINDS.

So my dear THe Producer, I am a libertarian, not a Trotskyite

In Peace & Liberty,
Treg

Yes, please BUY this wonderful libertarian BOOK! We all must know the History of Freedom! Buy it today!

"The System of Liberty: Themes in the History of Classical Liberalism" ...by author George Smith --
Buy it Here: http://www.amazon.com/dp/05211820

Treg, you've now been called

Treg, you've now been called a "Trotskyite".

I'm now waiting for Parkman, arbiter of Internet goodness and hater of name calling, to swoop in and demand that The_Producer apologize to you.

SUPPORT OUR FOUNDERS' AMERICA
Support the Constitution of the United States

SUPPORT OUR FOUNDERS' AMERICA
Support the Constitution of the United States

SSHHH!!!! Don't even THINK that Kevin!!

INSPIRE OTHERS! www.dvds4delegates.com
Want to know more about dvds4delegates?? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rggu6Xb5Uqk
Historic moment at WA State Convention at minute 4 here!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4cVL_TdwZk

What are you fightin' for?
Caught in the middle?
Freedom is only for those with the guts to defend it!

You say "the rest will take

You say "the rest will take care of itself"

Obviously not, because the Libertarians, even the OLD GUARD, are here trying to tell you that we should vote for Barr.

You are all doing what Ron warned us against. The cult of personality.

This is a shame to see the movement go like this.

Its funny because whenever I meet baldwin supporters face to face they are usually pretty reasonable and by the end of the conversation they admit it's illogical to vote for Baldwin. But on the internet, all I can picture is this... http://www.robertmilnes.net/

tilting at windmills... please stop and think people....

-------------------------

austinpetersen.com

Allow me to translate...

You are saying that Bob Borring is ok with socialism first BEFORE going back to Capitalism. And that we should trust him when he sides with the globalist because he promises he will be a Libertarian at a later time...

Kinda like his vote for the patriot act.

No thanks. No koolaid for me.

Aku Soku Zan

Aku Soku Zan

That's like saying

Paul is for a centrally planned economy before going back to capitalism, because Paul is for continued existence of the Federal Reserve in the short term while allowing competing currencies.

Ok, fine, but that's better than eternal central planning or socialism. You have to be an incrementalist in politics or nothing is going to get done.

----
Don't blame me if there's no voice for liberty opposing McCain and Obama in the Presidential debates. I donated to Ron Paul Libertarian, Bob Barr's campaign.

So far, no Libertarian candidate has done better than

Ed Clark in 1980 (recall the economic and foreign [Iran] situations during that period) and he received just a hair over 1% of the vote. (1.06%)

Source: http://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/

_________________________________________
"An economy built on fiat money is a society on its way to ashes."

_________________________________________
"An economy built on fiat money is a society on its way to ashes."

a little perspective...

I don't think any of us is under the illusion that either Barr or Baldwin can win in November. At best, a strong showing (above 1% would break the record for either of their parties) may help us with the fight against the neo-cons for 2012. I'm becoming increasingly convinced that a reasonably high vote total for EITHER or BOTH of these guys (flaws and all) will be noted by the media and the GOP as part of the "Ron Paul Effect". McCain will lose horribly, and we'll be off to a strong start on a FOUR YEAR LONG Ron Paul 2012 campaign. The economy is playing right into our hands, and Obama will only screw things up worse. We will win this in the end, but there will be a lot of pain in the meantime.

Sam Marsh
Musician
http://www.myspace.com/screwthebastards

I like the idea of a four

I like the idea of a four year long campaign.

I don't like the idea of our candidate being 76 years of age in 2012. The media would have a field day with that. Look for them to blame McCain's defeat this November on his age (instead of warmongering and horrible ideas).

SUPPORT OUR FOUNDERS' AMERICA
Support the Constitution of the United States

SUPPORT OUR FOUNDERS' AMERICA
Support the Constitution of the United States

Maybe we'll get lucky!!

...and Obama-lama-ding-dong's chopper will meet an unfortunate accident? As many people as the Clintons had killed, I'm surprised Obama hasnt met an untimely demise yet... Barr is a shill. Ignore him, and maybe he'll just go away. I will be writing-in Ron Paul come November. I'm almost 50 and this will be my first time voting...I never felt compelled before. Apathy cured, thank you! Although, like others here, I wonder if the votes are even counted....I remember the famous Stalin quote about counting votes....but,, I'm excited to cast mine none-the-less.
------------------
BC
If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention!

------------------
BC
Silence isn't always golden....sometimes it's yellow.

"The liberties of a people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." - Patrick Henry

Don't be fooled...

Bob Barr is a TOOL of the globalist elites, expressly designed to guarantee an adequate number of votes get siphoned from McCain to ensure an Obama presidency. Obama is the "chosen one" of the CFR. Barr is simply a pawn with two very specific assignments from his Masters: Be a "spoiler" to ensure a success for the Democrats and give those who're involved in this whole pesky "freedom movement thing" the illusion that they have a voice (that's purposely designed to accomplish nothing).

Bob Barr is the very essence of a red-herring.

this is crazy talk...

so you really believe this or do you type these things to get reactions out of level headed intelligent people?

I disagree; I think what

I disagree; I think what Barr is, beyond question, is a mainstream Republican pretending to be a Libertarian. Everything else is speculation.

It's debatable whether it's a conspiracy from global elites, an attempt by the neo-con conservatoids to transfer their flag to the Libertarian Party--or just another sad decision from a political party with weak, clueless leadership. (My money is on the latter.)

They could have had Aaron Russo in 2004 and they gave the nomination to an unknown candidate whose last name is hard to remember.

It's a party full of political incompetents, who have now established that they lack principles as well.

SUPPORT OUR FOUNDERS' AMERICA
Support the Constitution of the United States

SUPPORT OUR FOUNDERS' AMERICA
Support the Constitution of the United States

Evidence, please

Is this speculation on your part?

If you have evidence to support this statement, I'd like to see it.

Here's my problem:

"Ron Paul is a TOOL of the globalist elites, expressly designed to guarantee an adequate number of votes get siphoned from McCain to ensure an Obama presidency. Obama is the "chosen one" of the CFR. Paul is simply a pawn with two very specific assignments from his Masters: Be a "spoiler" to ensure a success for the Democrats and give those who're involved in this whole pesky "freedom movement thing" the illusion that they have a voice (that's purposely designed to accomplish nothing).

Ron Paul is the very essence of a red-herring."

Makes as much sense or more, especially prior to the GOP convention and the nomination. It may be true that the "globalist elites" are using our candidates and ourselves, but that doesn't mean the "tool" is complicit.

IMissLiberty

What do you think? http://consequeries.com/

Doesn't matter

Barr is no Ron Paul. Go ahead, vote for him and while we're at it-vote for Chuck Baldwin, Ralph Nader, Cynthia McKinney, and WRITE IN RON PAUL-as long as no one from the Ron Paul movement votes for any Democrat or Republican then we're all good.
Barr won't win, just like any other third party candidate won't win. The object, as I see it, is to cripple the people's belief there only is and ever will be just two parties and getting enough delegates for Ron Paul as possible.

I would like to remind you...

Before Lincoln the Republican party was a minor third party - The Democrats and the Whigs ran the show - Nothing lasts forever.

Support Liberty Media! http://benswann.com/ - http://www.bluerepublican.org/ - http://krisannehall.com/ - http://lionsofliberty.com/

We won't turn things around until we 1st change the media - donate to a liberty media creator today!

The Combination of

Bob Barr, Chuck Baldwin, and Write in Ron Paul will elect Obama. Too many conservatives are pissed off about having a Liberal Republican nominee. The only hope to stop it would be a) Make Ron Paul the nominee in Sept. b) an Obama spoiler. It doesn't appear that b) is gonna happen

----------------------------------------------------------
"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" B.Bunny "Scwewy Wabbit!"E. Fudd
People's Awareness Coalition: Deprogramming Sequence

Welcome to my world

No one I have ever voted for has become president.

Decade after decade I live under a president trying to steal my rights.

One learns to comfort oneself this way: If Obama inherits this mess, he and the Democrats will get the blame. If McCain wins, he'll make things worse, too.

Sooner or later it will get so bad that the tide will turn. I think we're there, which is why I'm pushing so hard for Ron Paul and/or the Libertarian candidate. It isn't really the president we need to change. It's Congress. The handwriting on the wall needs to be big and clear: voters want more freedom.

To further mix metaphors, it's a big ship to turn, and you have the tide, the wind and all us little paddlers doing our best to turn it. I'm more optimistic, now.

IMissLiberty

What do you think? http://consequeries.com/

The economy will start

The economy will start crashing before the inaugeration in January. No amount of news media sugar-gloss will help. Oil will hit $200/barrel before Christmas. Restaurant chains and major retail stores will start falling like dominoes. There will be panic on Wall Street.

I'm not sure Dr. Paul hasn't made the perfect decision returning to Congress. The voters vote their pocketbooks. Whichever party wins in November loses.

SUPPORT OUR FOUNDERS' AMERICA
Support the Constitution of the United States

SUPPORT OUR FOUNDERS' AMERICA
Support the Constitution of the United States

There's a quote

There is a quote about conservative organizations which slide to the left which is something like "any organization not explicitly conservative over time becomes liberal" and it is true of all conservatives everywhere - they can't stay true - the quote should really be "any conservative who isn't explicitly *reactionary* over time becomes liberal".

And no I am not saying Dr. Paul is reactionary, just very 'radical' which politicians MUST be. Bob Barr is already turning into a statist by the sounds of it - and he is supposed to be running as a Libertarian. People are gonna start thinking Libertarians are about as principled as Republicans. I wish he would stop it. He is going to wreck the libertarian label (as Reason magazine and Cato often do). Stop it Bob Barr please!!!

"What does conservatism today stand for? It stands for war. It stands for power. It stands for spying, jailing without trial, torture, counterfeiting without limit, and lying from morning to night."

Lew Rockwell

The Libertarian label....

Was struggling to get 1% of the vote since its last best showing in 80' - Bob Barr is introducing liberty on an incremental scale that a majority of Americans will find acceptable - and the party will gain legitamacy in the eyes of many for the first time. Barr tried to convince Ron Paul to run on the LP ticket before he stared running himself - that should tell you something about the mans integrity right there. If Barr isnt in the debates, who will argue against FISA and so many other issues we care about in the presidential dabates?
I say we give liberty a voice.

Support Liberty Media! http://benswann.com/ - http://www.bluerepublican.org/ - http://krisannehall.com/ - http://lionsofliberty.com/

We won't turn things around until we 1st change the media - donate to a liberty media creator today!

Barr said

"and give the Fed more “oversight” over the housing industry." DON'T give the Feds any more or any type of control or authority. Get rid of them. So Barr seems to be playing some kind of game of "get rid of the Feds" but until we do, "let them do whatever they want."

Yeah, you're right,

if we can't have Ron Paul then let's settle for McCain or Obama...they're much better choices that Bob Barr...

----------------------------------------------------------
"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" B.Bunny "Scwewy Wabbit!"E. Fudd
People's Awareness Coalition: Deprogramming Sequence