Barr, Baldwin or NOT the ENEMIES!!
Submitted by JFEJ004 on Mon, 07/21/2008 - 21:39
Ron Paul, the originator of the Revolution (REMEMBER THAT GUY!?), SUPPORTS BOTH BALDWIN AND BARR, and hopes they do well. We should be supporting them as well THEY ARE NOT THE ENEMIES!! GOSH! They both have their positives and their negatives, and they both have something special to offer the Revolution movement.
Barr and Baldwin are not the enemies, and Ron Paul would be ashamed at the needless and senseless candidate bashing as if they were big government advocates that believe in an interventionist foreign policy! LET'S NOT LOSE SIGHT OF THE BIG PICTURE IN WHAT WERE TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH! ROME WASN'T BUILT IN A DAY!
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Hmm
I've been having a hard time deciding what to think of these guys. Obviously, neither of them are Ron Paul. Also neither of them are going to win. The more I think about it, the more I think what is important about these guys is that they are BOTH opportunities for people to hear the message. Jesse Ventura too. So, to me, it doesn't really matter which one has the right past record or not, which one people might vote for, or which is closest to Dr. Paul's message, because ultimately what we really need is for the message to spread. Anyone out there saying the things that we agree with is good to me. The more support both or either of these guys get, the more support for the message, which leads back to more support for Dr. Paul and his campaign...
That's what I think.
AGREE WHOLE-HEARTEDLY!
With the Revolution in its infancy, it is imperative that we disseminate our core ideals to the widest number of people possible. That should currently be the primary focus of this Revolution...
Okay hold on MUST READ THIS!!
I have been a long time RP supporter.....and a longtime member of DP. Help me on both issues.
Barr and Baldwin.....give me the pros, and Cons of each.
I come here to post my thoughts....I support any RP type candidates.... I have listened to Barr once, and he sounded great.......give me some insight.
Good or bad?
Thanks!
from my perspective
Fortune Favors the Bold
Barr:
Pros: name and media recognition, LP has more access then the CP, can potentially spread the message through the MSM
Cons: May not be sincere. Has a long history of bad legislation as a congressman (was a drug warrior, voted for the patriot act, other stuff). Doesn't always quite seem to "get it." Has made some wishy washy statements potentially supporting interventionsim, the Fed.
Baldwin:
Pros: Very sincere. Fiery. Consistent.
Cons: CP is a specifically Christian party. Their platform calls for legislating morality, although Baldwin himself looks at this as a state issue. Baldwin is a bit too militant for my taste on the immigration issue.
Neutral: Baldwin is a big opponent of the New World Order, and is very vocal about it. That is his principle angle. Barr's angle is more "the government has grown too big, and the republicans have lost their way"
Fortune Favors the Bold
OKAY
Thank you so much......
I appreciate your input! You just set me straight!
Here is my take...
Baldwin: solid message (arguably more so than Barr); he is going to be on 41 of 50 state ballots; has very little name recognition; never has been on any national media forum; worked in the Ron Paul campaign; Constitution Party pres. candidate;
Barr: Message has a few holes but the ideals of liberty are still there; has fairly strong name recognition nationwide, had a shaky voting past when he was a Republican, converted to Libertarian Party and is now the candidate of the Party; will be on 48 or 49 state ballots; gets a lot of main stream media attention; has the good shot of being in the debates with Obama, Mccain; Latest Zogby poll had him at 6%
Criticism is fine, but keep the personal attacks away...
Ron Paul supports both Barr and Baldwin. Paul is correct in supporting both men because they both are representatives of our core values. You may disagree with certain policies each man proclaims in his platform, but would you not agree that they both are furthering the cause of limited government? Neithter Barr not Baldwin are perfect candidates, but they both are advocates of liberty, and we should be embracing them instead of maliciously tearing them down with personal attacks.
Stop the hateful attack,s and realize both candidates are undeniably bringing something to the table of the Revolution movement...
You and your friends are
You and your friends are just as guilty of personal attacks as anyone on this Forum.
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True...
But Barr undeniably receives more of the harsh and unfair criticism. This has to stop on both sides...We have to realize that both Barr and Baldwin are helping this country move in the right direction. Like I always say, neither of them are the enemy. Ron Paul supports them both, and he would never lead his followers in the wrong direction...
On the other hand, attacking
On the other hand, attacking the candidate is not the same thing as attacking other Forum members. It's not a 'personal attack' for me to criticize a political candidate running for President.
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Do you and Bedr feel at all
Do you and Bedr feel at all like you are banging your heads against the wall when you attempt to sell Bob Barr here? Just wondering.
YES, I DO!
But something needs to be said because Barr brings something invaluable to the table which Baldwin does not. Barr brings national media attention to the ideals of limited government, and there is nothing greater in need for this Revolution than media attention. We need all the forums necessarily to help further our movement, and media attention is the most helpful medium of bringing our message to the greatest number of people. Someone needs to openly support Barr. I realize all the intangibles he brings to the Revolution so I don't care being called a "disinfo troll" over and over again because I know Barr is a great asset to have in helping further the cause of liberty which is lacking in our times.
Well there might be a good
Well there might be a good reason for that. Ron Paul has attracted a huge number of supporters and was able to receive record donations from small donations because his life long voting record and his integrity is unmatched anywhere in Congress. Therefore, these same supporters will find it difficult to settle for a lessor candidate.... for this election anyway.
I hear your reasons but I am not persuaded. Not now and not this upcoming election. Oh, and about Wayne Root......What a disaster! I don't know of any true RP supporter who can overlook Root's recent insults on Ron Paul's foreign policy ideas.
So my advice is to sit out the LP this election. Muster up some of that Ron Paul voting integrity. Maybe next election will see some better libertarian candidates.
I've said this before
Fortune Favors the Bold
but really, what does any of this matter? Neither Barr nor Baldwin will be president. But our long term efforts must continue.
Fortune Favors the Bold
Correct!
Defeating McCain by siphoning off votes is the imperative!
Ron Paul'08
Ok so for example Im not allowed to question Barr's past
or even Baldwin's past (eventhough Im a Baldwin supporter dosent mean I joined a cult of man worship).
Im also not allowed to question their statements that they make in the media?
Is this some kind of new Cult we are supposed to be joining?
Even when I disagreed with Ron Paul no one here wrote such a pact declaring that anyone who criticizes Ron Paul is the "Enemy"
But they who criticize Barr are the Enemy?
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Pls donate here Ron Paul can still win
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Not over yet what about this propaganda?
Bob Barr says we need to give the Fed MORE POWER - he said just the opposite. Its totally misrepresents everything Barr said.
Barr has been quoted several times as saying he would like to see the Federal Reserve gone completely. Even your own post with the hyped subject has Barr saying that the Fed needs to have more transparency and congress needs to limit its power.
Criticism is one thing...
But the sheer manipulation and under-handed tactics used by both Baldwin and Barr supporters (especially the Barr haters) is unnecessary! A quick example...look at the right at a thread entitled "PROOF BOB BARR IS A TROLL!"! What is that all about? In the actual thread it criticizes him for flip-flopping, but conveniently leaves out the fact his solution to the problem which is the free markets (which is the same as Paul's position) hasn't changed! People tend to forget all the good he is doing for this movement by giving us limited government advocates a chance to be heard in the debates and election! WHAT IS WRONG WITH BARR SPREADING THE MESSAGE OF LIMITED GOVERNMENT IN NATIONAL FORUMS!!!!! Barr bashers make him out to be Jimmy Carter reincarnated!! Get some perspective on his campaign!!
Ron Paul is an ignorant fool for supporting Barr! Bob Barr is a trol,l and since Paul supports him he is a neo-con troll too!!!
BARR AND BALDWIN ARE NOT THE ENEMIES!
You must be referring to my
You must be referring to my "underhanded tactics" of repeatedly pointing out that Barr essentially endorsed Global Warming after a meeting with Al Gore, which was the essence of my point of contention.
At no point in the post was it about free market solutions to the problem, which you desperately attempted to spin to change the topic. And in any case it was never about that in MY posts, which were quite clearly stated.
And your contention that his "free market solutions" were identical to Ron Paul's turns out to fall flat anyway, as per Barr's own words:
"There obviously is a role for government," Barr said. "There's a role for private industry. There's a role for nonprofits and certainly a role for the American people, individually and collectively". . . . [Barr] said it is time to recognize that global warming "is a very serious problem" and that it will get "dramatically worse" unless significant action is taken.
Source: http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/022058.html
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Well there is Global Warming
Its proven on Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Jupiter's moons and even Pluto that each planet has risen 1 degree in temperature. Are you saying there is no global warming?
There is, but its not man made, and I think thats what Barr and Paul are contending. Still it could be a problem as are any weather patterns.
It would be no different if we were coming into an ice age, we as a nation would have to prepare and make changes to see it through.
As far as Barr's meeting with Gore, he was invited and has a response to why.
http://www.bobbarr2008.com/press/press-releases/58/bob-barr-...
Global Warming, as preached
Global Warming, as preached by Al Gore, is junk science mythology.
Bob Barr is buying into it and publicly saying so (a really stupid thing to do, IMHO, if you are trying to win Libertarian voters).
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JFEJ004, understood but.............
What you have on the DP is a handful of Constitution Party members bashing Barr so they can pander for the CP.
I am not an LP member, I am a Republican who voted for Pat Buchanan in 92, 96 and 2000 in the Reform Party, and the CP candidate in '04.
I could care less about the LP or the CP, but I do care about getting the message out. Barr is far far better than Baldwin at doing that, and if you listen to Ron Paul that is what WE ARE SUPPOSE TO DO.
But you are right, Barr and Baldwin are on the same side, and as a matter of fact Bob Barr was the Constitution Party Headliner at their last Presidential Convention. So even the CP realizes Barr is one of the best.
Actually I am "bashing" Barr
Actually I am "bashing" Barr because I see no evidence that he's a Libertarian. You can bet that if Barr were a real Libertarian, like the late Aaron Russo or Harry Browne, I'd support him.
Of course if he were a real Libertarian, he also wouldn't have voted for the Patriot Act, the War on Drugs, or the war in Iraq. Although this is mostly about the Patriot Act for me, personally. I consider it Treason.
The silly antics of his salesmen on this site are only a mild irritant, and the fact that I support Baldwin also has nothing to do with my dissension against Barr. I may yet write in Ron Paul in November.
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Well if isn't old Kevin Tumor
Gee Kevin,
Lets see I guess everyone must be perfect, but lets correct you post.
First, Barr voted against the Patriot Act in the House with Ron Paul on the first vote. What Barr did do, after the bill already passed was to agree to vote for the Senate-House Compromise Committee version in order to get on the committee, where Barr added sunset clauses and weakened wording to the Patriot Act - it was the right thing to do, and the only thing to do. So get it straight when you choose to throw out propaganda.
Second, yes the Iraq War - Barr was the first Congressman to come out against the war who had previously voted for it. It was only about 4 months after the war started, when Barr said he was against it because there were NO weapons of mass destruction found in Iraq which is why he voted for it because of the Intelligence he was given on it. So I think he is no Johnny Come Lately to being against the war.
War on Drugs, actually I am a Republican and I don't think all drugs should be legalized - thats retarded, but I do agree with Barr and Paul that the drug war is a failure and we need to do something else. I think Barr has a more moderate and agreeable position of letting the states decide.
The spin doesn't work. He
The spin doesn't work. He voted for the Patriot Act. I hold it against him. So do most of Barr's detractors.
Ron Paul, of course, did the REAL "right thing to do", and voted against it. Barr should have done the same. Because he didn't, he will never be President, or win a sizeable percentage of the vote.
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I was never a CP member. Ive always been a Conservative Repub
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Pls donate here Ron Paul can still win
http://www.dvds4delegates.com/
Good perspective
Yes, I agree with you. I shall head back to the high road.
Thanks
Enemies of Barr and Baldwin
are the enemies.
Anyone who is actively campaigning against them should be considered to be actively campaigning against Dr. Paul and what he has worked for, because they're campaigning on the same GENERAL (not identical) message. Dr. Paul has said "I hope together they both get a lot of votes." If you work against that, you're not friend of Ron Paul and no friend of mine.
----
Don't blame me if there's no voice for liberty opposing McCain and Obama in the Presidential debates. I donated to Ron Paul Libertarian, Bob Barr's campaign.
As I've posted before, I have nothing against the
Baldwin people because:
A. They don't try to ram him down the Ron Paul supporters' throats;
B. I have yet to see lies/propaganda about Ron Paul posted by Baldwin people.
Buuuuttt, Barr people lie about Dr. Paul and they do try to ram him down our throats. This was going on BEFORE Ron Paul suspended his campaign...soooo to me, they NEVER were for Ron Paul, only pretending to be. In addition, Barr voted for the Patriot Act; he has already flip-flopped on global warming (early June on Beck, he said global warming was a myth, this month, he says he's spoken with Al Gore, and now says global warming is real, etc.). I don't trust him. All along we've advised other people to check out their candidates Congressional voting records, to get the TRUTH about their candidate (since most politicians says what's needed to get elected, but their vote records show their true colors { btw, Ron Paul's voting record is exemplary})..Barr's voting record isn't good. If he has truly changed, and I don't think he has (global warming issue, for one)...I would support him in the future, like 2012 or after. He has not earned my trust.
In addition, the RNC hasn't been held yet. This is a Ron Paul site. I am here to promote Ron Paul...not your boy.
But the way, justcant (preferred) I don't consider myself actively working against Barr....Unlike yourself, I don't go to the Barr site and browse, or join, or leave messages promoting Ron Paul, but since I plan on voting it is my desire to check out each candidate's past and current positions...flip-flops, who's financing their campaign, etc... I consider looking at the truth and expressing that truth, just that....not working against someone...
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If we want to advance the cause of Liberty,McCain must lose!
By voting for Barr or Baldwin in large numbers,we send a message of extreme dissatisfaction with the GOP and keep McCain from winning,further pulling the Republicans over even more fully to the war-making,big government status quo...
Ron Paul'08