An argument for 'WHY' Obama being president 'COULD' (possibly) have 'some' positives... (TAKE A MOMENT TO CONSIDER)
OK- Before you begin going ballistic on me, hear me out.
I do NOT want Obama to get in. Let's make that clear... first and foremost. (And I WON'T be voting for Obama, nor McCain- neither should you.)
HOWEVER-
For weeks now I have been contemplating Obama becoming president. I believe MOST people would agree that Obama getting in isn't going to change much, 'IF' anything AT ALL...
SO- 'if' that is true, why could this turn out to be a positive thing??? Ah... Therein lies the answer.
I have tried MANY times to talk some sense with friends who are entirely for 'Democrats' being elected into office to 'SAVE-THE-DAY,' and while I try to explain to them that their agendas have become nearly one and the same- my friends eventually tune me out. Holding onto this fallacy of 'Democratic salvation'.
After being confronted with a great deal of frustration I frequently began to think to myself, "Arrgg- if only they knew things won't get better REGARDLESS of whether a Democratic president gets in- 'THEN' they would likely open their eyes..."
It is at THAT POINT it occurs to me. For the last eight years (especially) we have people now supporting Democrats for -NO OTHER REASON- than to get the 'Neo-Cons' out of office.
WHY? Why are people so supportive of Democrats this election??? Because they see the HORRIBLE disaster we find ourselves in, they see the lies, as well as the corruption taking place with the Republicans, and -TRY AS I MIGHT- I (as well as others) cannot talk sense to people who are 'CONVINCED' that 'if' they get a Democrat in, things will magically turn around, and improve.
I have spent hours talking with (sincere) people who TRULY DO BELIEVE that 'if' they can get some Democrats in ("Republicans supposed opposition"), The Democrats will surely 'turn this boat around' and get us back on track. Too many people are convinced of this. Many, if not most people are unprepared to believe the two parties are on the same side, nor comprehend the reality that there are conspirators TRYING to dismantle this country. The people running the show simply trick the population into thinking the other party provides a 'check and balance' to the other. IT DOESN'T MATTER which one of the two parties you have in- THE COUNTRY WILL LARGELY HEAD IN THE ''''SAME'''' DIRECTION- Over a cliff. (As much as I wish that weren't so.)
How do you stop this?
YET- many of my (well intentioned friends) truly are holding out for their 'KNIGHT ON A WHITE HORSE' to rush in to 'save the day.' Many Americans are SO convinced of this event taking place they WON'T listen to another argument, nor listen to reason about how they themselves are being conned. They aren't 'ready' to abandon their 'ol parties' yet, as they still think there is hope in relying on Democrats.
SO- then how can the (now majority) of people be woken up, 'if' rational discussion won't work????
THEY SIMPLY HAVE TO WITNESS THE ILLUSION REVEAL ITSELF. (They are playing for the SAME team- and it is nothing more than an illusion.) All in the meanwhile having our effort continue to educate people as they being to 'wake up.'
I TRULY do believe that 'UNTIL' many people see their 'ideal scenario' played out- (being that the 'Democrats' win majority) and witness to their dismay, shock and horror that THINGS CONTINUE IN THE SAME DIRECTION they will largely continue to hold onto this 'wishful thinking.'
'IF' McCain gets in- that will allow all the Democrats and people who have (by then) joined the Democratic party to '''''STILL''''' hold onto the silly notion that 'if and when' Democrats get in control 'THEN' the country will be saved. I argue that it is 'ONLY' until they see the person they 'thought' was going to save the day (Democrats) continue to steer the country into an iceberg- that people will begin to 'AWAKEN TO THEIR AWFUL SITUATION' and the SOONER THAT HAPPENS, THE BETTER. (A very bleak positive side to an awful situation- I admit.)
By now the majority of Americans TOTALLY disagree with the direction this country is heading. 90% of Americans are unhappy with the course of our country. In many ways- I've heard people suggest that 'Neo-Cons' are toast- done with. People see the unraveling of our country, and DO NOT want the Neo-Cons back in office. HOWEVER- people have NOT accepted the realization that Democrats won't save it either.
The Neo-Cons have alienated the majority of the American people, NOW we need the Democrats to do the same. Once both parties have alienated the American people (God hoping there is still a chance) MAYBE, it is then a sufficient amount of people will realize we are in deep *hit. Our efforts being used to educate people 'taking the Red Pill'- and explaining to them what is going on. But until people begin to see Democrats fai to fix anything (as they are showing now)- people won't go looking to alternative sources and solutions for their problems.
Mark Twain once said:
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so."
Right now MOST of the American people are CONVINCED they know the solution to our problems- (GET A DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT) but people will HAVE realize what they 'knew for sure'- just ain't so.
I DO believe there is a greater chance NOW than ever before in history for people to begin to 'AWAKEN TO OUR AWFUL SITUATION.'
For many reasons I have listed below in the comments section.
-Jason
If this is the scenario that
If this is the scenario that really happens, prepare to go after Obama for every small mistake he makes. We'll need citizen watch groups that will watch Obama's every move. We need to let them know that we're going to squeeze them. We might have to get sound bite happy. Demand an explanation for every bill that may pass and have it abolished if it involves treason. We will HAVE to show our teeth. And if it gets pretty ugly, our claws too. Let's not forgive any simple piece of treason. As I say: if it smells like a rat and looks like a rat, it's a rat alright. We're going to be forced to play hardball times 10 if we don't get our Doctor into the White House. First sign of treason, let's revolt. Act first, ask questions later (sound familiar?).
Dude... I disagree. And
Dude... I disagree. And here's why:
A lot of Americans feel that Bush is in office via foul play during elections. In fact, most Ron Paul supporters believe it 100%.
This, alone, should prompt a rebellion from us.
But nope, we don't rebel. Bush has been a president for 8 years now. America "voted" him back into office for a second term. By doing that, America sent a message to the world. The message: "America likes to bend over and take it up the ass. Give us some more."
Knowing what we know, if we let Obama or McCain get in (who are on the same agenda as the current administration), we will send the same message throughout the world again... But this time it'll be quieter because one of these 2 individuals will win legally due to the MSM doing their job so well of keeping the masses dis-illusioned.
The time is now. Take control by force. Rebel. Don't let it be business as usual anymore. No more waiting for sheep to wake up (some of whom don't want to wake up).
The people who have been running this world have been doing it for a long time and have probably been through spurts of "people waking" ... and probably also know how to "handle" it.
We need to take them out. Now.
The slogan press on has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race. No person was ever honored for what he received. Honor has been the reward for what he gave.
- Calvin Coolidge
i know what you say is true.....
i only hope that we have enough time....
if we know this.........don't we believe that our captors know this as well?
Consider this hypothetical scenario
Obama gets elected and some wacko (or so we are led to believe) takes him out. The resulting rioting would be the worst this nation has ever endured. Enough so that Martial law could be declared and all firearms confiscated. Habeous corpus could be suspended for all citizens (after their little test with the detainees proved we would surrender that right).UN and Canadian troops are called in to quell the rioting and the NWO/CFR sits back and counts all their chips. Companies like Halliburton just sit back and watch their profit margins explode when they are called upon to man their detainee camps they have already built all over the nation.........Nah, I'm just paranoid.
If not us than who?
here's my take
along with jesse ventura's, most rp supporters, third party candidates and yes, ron paul.
we have a plutocracy and most folks, even democrats deep down believe that but still hold onto the concept you describe - saviorship. well, why have the dems funded the war then?
my point is this: the new world order is at our doorstep.
we've had 8 years of the hatchet man. (chopping up our constitution, economy and personal liberties).
now we will have 4 years of the salesman (easing immigration, more UN participation, more faux diplomacy - but no real policy changes).
remember, bush, obama and mccain all have the same bosses.
Well, at least, I think he will make a good scapegoat.
"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." Benjamin Franklin
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government of the people, by the people, for the people
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They will irrepairably damage the country. Period.
"We will have a democrat in office. With a democratically controlled congress. They will irrepairably damage the country. Period. They will Tax at a time when the nation can not handle it. They will print more and more money to fund all the services they want, and in the process they’ll kill the dollar. " -Aravoth http://dougwead.wordpress.com/2008/02/06/the-mouse-that-roar...
The Democrats took over Congress promising to end the war. Instead, they have voted for every war spending request of the President. The sheeple that voted Democrat aren't phased. Even after President Obama drags his feet in Iraq and has us involved in Darfur, the sheeple will blame imperfection on obstuctionist minority Republicans, Meanwhile, President Obama will be locking things up with $40/hr volunteer bribes to college students as he packs the Supreme Court with living constitution experts.
Anything above notwithstanding, McCain will stack the deck of an already unresponsive government with more neocons. I'm sticking with the Paul, Baldwin, Ventura, Barr bunch.
Obama as President
means we will get back all those Republican Conservatives who "wondered off the ranch" and violated the Constitution and libertarian principles.
These fair weather friends will be back. Many will join us in the Revolution. That is the good news.
The really good news is IF we can hold it together, stick firmly to Dr Paul's message, we will have many RP Republicans running for Congress in 2010 and we will have Jesse Ventura running against Obama in 2012.
So, a President Obama will be a good thing for us in the Revolution.
On the other hand, a president McCain will be a bad thing for us in the Revolution. We will have no "fair weather friends" join us to put forth RP republicans into Congress come 2010 and they will not like it when Jesse runs against McCain in 2012. A President McCain means we will be fighting TWO battles. One within the Republican Party and one with the Democrats.
I perfer to keep my battles down to one and my fair weather friends close, so an Obama Presidency, in my opinion, is a good thing for us inside the Revolution.
In Peace & Liberty,
Treg
New World Order
Well, if you really stop to think about it, establishing a New World Order will be best, in the long run, for all life on Earth. Afterall, the human race is basically a cancer on the Earth whose unchecked population is choking the life out of so many other species...and really screwing up the aesthetics of the landscape, too.
It all depends on what game you want to play.
Obama is a good choice for the New World Order agenda; McCain's not so bad either. It's a win/win proposition as long as you keep playing the game of the status quo.
Agree with you
Also thought about it a long time from all sides. It would be - ironically - better if Obama and Democrats win strongly, as then in two year's time a real conservative-libertarian constitutional revolution with Dr. Paul as the head can be swept into office (like in 1994) and then Obama would be restricted int he damage he can do and paving the way for Dr.Paul/Gary Johnson etc. to win the presidency in 2012. If McCain is elected, the GOP would have to support him, also when he follows policies that are very unRepublican, e.g. more than even with Bush. If the GOP loses, the Dems will be the "war party" in Afghanistan (Syrian, Iran?) and the GOP can unify on Dr. Paul's platform. If the GOP does not learn from their mistakes, a third new viable party can be organized, perhaps under the name "Liberty Party", and can include most of the Libertarians (ex the anarchists), the Constitution Party as well as possibly conservative Greens.
THEY SIMPLY HAVE TO WITNESS THE ILLUSION REVEAL ITSELF. (???)
WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?
**********************************
After you answer that - does your post mean that American Citizens should just vote B. Hussein Muhammed Obomba into office just to see if things are going to be just as catastrophic as they were under the Neo-Con GOP regime!?!?!???? And to HELP the current admin. move into the New World Order??? (WTF???)
Before I let loose, (not to mention my fellow Ron Paul supporters), just verify what I am reading here.
BTW --- Didn't we all try to fix this when everyone voted that disgusting Democrat Hag Nancy Pelosi to be Speaker of the House??? She was voted in mostly because we thought she would impeach this bush/cheney administration; She could've been the 1st female president. That ugly joke of a woman just ended up being their whipping girl.
Obama = O.ne B.ig A.ss M.istake A.merica
No, no, no- but that is a good question you asked.
No, and I would agree with most of what you said. You're absolutely right.
NO- I'm NOT suggesting we vote for Obama. I'm 'simply' trying to look at some rational (even if slight) positive to a VERY NEGATIVE situation.
So, please don't misunderstand me. I'm voting for either Bob Barr or Chuck Baldwin.
I AM however trying to argue a 'possible' PAINFUL yet positive outcome that could come from this that we SHOULD be ready for- and to leap at.
When I say 'THEY SIMPLY HAVE TO WITNESS THE ILLUSION REVEAL ITSELF'- what I'm saying is the people so convinced that 'America will be saved' once they get a Democrat in, might (UNFORTUNATELY) have to witness the two parties are running the same agendas. THAT is what I'm saying. I know with some people I know I could speak until I'm blue in the face (trust me I HAVE) BUT the only thing that 'might' convince them is seeing they were suckered- JUST LIKE WHEN THEY VOTED FOR PELOSI.
So you are ABSOLUTELY correct- the Democrats have done a HORRIBLE JOB, and HELP the Republicans.
HOWEVER- I have also talked with some 'Democrats' who are VERY disillusioned by how the Democrats are helping out the Republicans- WHICH IS A 'GOOD' THING, because they are waking up.
So PLEASE understand what I'm saying here. If I had a magic wand I would want for NOTHING MORE than Ron Paul, or even Bob Barr, or Chuck Baldwin get elected. TRUST ME!
But I'm looking at this from a realistic point of view- one that even Ron Paul has mentioned. Saying people might just have to see things get REALLY bad before they begin to wake up and realize we need to change directions.
GO RON PAUL!!!!!!
No & No & NO...
The Democrats had a HUGE chance to redeem themselves with Pelosi.
So every single time you debate with a Democrat, you let them know that they had their chance! Nancy Pelosi was voted a DEMOCRAT WOMAN Speaker of the House in an acting/current REPUBLICAN Administration.
She just ended up being the worst of all Democrats ever. She had a chance to try & out the bush administration & make the White House from Republican to Democrat and start the healing. As well, she could've been the 1st woman president by default. She chose the evil Neo-Con path instead, unfortunately. B. Hussein is even worse than she is. Democrats are Neo-Cons as well as far as the eye can see.
Dr. Ron Paul refers to them as "Republicrats."
Obama = O.ne B.ig A.ss M.istake A.merica
So...
It seems like people are suggesting 'I' recommend we support Democrats get in...
I hope that isn't the case...
So- what are you doing and suggesting be done to keep that from happening?
GO RON PAUL!!!!!!
Hmmm...
maybe you should edit/change the title of your thread so people don't get the wrong idea about it...& edit your post. Better yet, read it again & maybe re-write it. This is a Ron Paul Support site...not caving to Obomba & the Republicrats. Since most replies to it are negative, it may be what you wrote that does not read right here.
As well, you must be a new member if you're asking me what I'm doing, because I have been a member of this site & in the Ron Paul movement for a LONG time now & have donated a lot of time & money to this campaign. How about you?
Obama = O.ne B.ig A.ss M.istake A.merica
I try my hardest to not
I try my hardest to not fight with people in the same movement- as I think it is largely counter productive... but honestly I'm not even going to begin to argue with you on this. I think it is largely pointless.
It seems like you are simply frustrated (which I understand) and you are looking to take it out on/with someone. I'm not going there- I'm sorry.
I feel you're twisting what I'm saying- and I'm really not taking too kindly to what you're suggesting.
I am allowed to post things I feel are important as well. I'm totally supportive of Ron Paul- and I don't even feel it is necessary to speak about all the times I have contributed to Ron Paul's campaign (it's a lot of times) and the amount of hours I have worked on the movement's behalf. Because knowing I have literally dedicated part of my life to this really causes you saying something like that- hard to swallow.
I feel you're turning your guns on me out of frustration. (Which I don't like, but I feel I can understand and have empathy for.)
But I am a part of this movement- and I think it is totally unecessary and uncalled for what you are saying.
-My question at the bottom of my last post wasn't meant to be 'inflammatory'- I was being sincere. I'm not suggesting you aren't 'doing anything'- in fact I would have likely said you probably have done a TON- which I'm proud of and happy about.
I was asking out of sincere and genuine interest. I have in fact 'also' edited my post 5-6 times, which I'm 'happy' to do- otherwise I wouldn't do it.
GO RON PAUL!!!!!!
Well,
someone is over-defensive. Usually it is because they have something that they have to be defensive about.
If you read my post, it just made some suggestions. Of course you don't have to comply. As well, You Are New here. I've been fighting the good fight for RP for a while now.
You're the one who asked what I was doing for the movement FIRST. After a brief answer, I simply asked you in return, so don't make out like I was the one who started that avenue of discussion. It seems that you like to dish it out but don't like it back in return.
It's funny how you wrote a previous poster that you don't like it when others are patronizing/condscending to you, yet you do not hesitate to do it to others.
I am not twisting what you are saying. In fact, I asked you to explain in black & white. I'm not suggesting anything...I'll state it. I do not care if you take kindly to it or not.
As well, I am not going to subject my fellow Daily Paul supporters to this exchange if it is going to get personal on debating & posts here. Let's take it to the contact button & make it private.
Obama = O.ne B.ig A.ss M.istake A.merica
lol- I'm done.
lol- I'm done. You win. That's not even what I was saying, but ok.
GO RON PAUL!!!!!!
:)
Cutie :)~
Obama = O.ne B.ig A.ss M.istake A.merica
lol :-)
lol :-)
GO RON PAUL!!!!!!
Back to square one
That doesn't work. I have watched it not work. Your youth is showing thinking that letting them watch it will work. Plus it is too late for that to be helpful. We don't have time for anyone to learn any more lessons.
The best thing we can do is get the delegates to nominate Ron Paul.
I agree- get all the delegates you can get, and keep fighting
I agree with you. Try your hardest (we should all try) our hardest to get Ron Paul as far as possible. I agree.
I'm not giving you an 'argument' for why we should give up on Ron Paul's movement- that is the OPPOSITE of what I'm actually saying.
In all honesty however- I don't take too 'kindly' to you saying my 'youth is showing.' Excuse me??? It has been your *ucking generation that has gotten us to where we are at- so don't give me this patronizing bull *hit.
Please- it is enough for me to not want to hit a lot of the 'baby boomers' upside their heads. It is 'OUR' generation that has been the main support behind Ron Paul... so on that basis, in all due respect, kiss off.
I'm 'attempting' to articulate a positive plan 'B' situation- WHILE NOT giving up, or letting up on the gas to make plan 'A' work.
I am AWARE that at a certain point 'Democracy can no longer heal Democracy' which is why the more time that passes the worse off we are. But- by the way you are speaking, I'll be damned if I'm going to listen to the 'collective thoughts' of the generations gone before us on 'how it is to be done,' because if you were all so 'smart and with it,' we wouldn't be dealing with this situation, would we?
WE generation Y people (for better or worse) find ourselves in this situation. WE are taking the BIGGEST brunt of a situation WE DID NOT CREATE. So I hope you keep that in the back of your mind.
'WE'- the 'younger generation' have been largely what has pushed the Ron Paul campaign, and I've been a HUGE contributor in that... so excuse me if I don't take too kindly to your condescending comment about 'my youth showing.' Give me a break.
Go- fight on the delegates, we should work our hardest. Work as if there is 'not another option' while also plan as if it 'won't work out' and something else will have to be done. THAT IS BEING PREPARED. (Hope for the best, expect the worse.) Being prepared for BOTH scenarios.
GO RON PAUL!!!!!!
With a little more experience
you will be much less hot headed. I have openly apologized for my generation myself on this very forum, just for your information. Plus this is not just my generations problem, it is an eternities problem. It has been happening within each of our presidencies from the beginning. You said yourself that things are so much different now that 9-11 has happened, the false wars have happened, first time for preemptive strike. There is plenty of blame to go around, but I have never heard any of my generation, except me, apologize for it.
I understand where you are coming from because I have been there and hoped for it. That is what I am saying. Am I not allowed to have my opinion? My opinion is we don't have any more time, the time is running out. If Obama get's in, I don't think Y will have an opportunity to awaken.
Relax. I am not your enemy. You proposed an idea that I simply do not think will work because I have thought it myself so many times in the past.
Alright...
And you might be correct.
Let's BOTH hope you aren't, but it is entirely possible. Very possible actually- if not likely.
I do appreciate you being big enough to admit the generation/s before us have really gotten us into dire straights. (Although it isn't about pointing fingers- as you suggested. It is about finding a solution.)
However- (I'm sure this isn't true) but when I hear the older generation/s say - 'we don't have another chance,' I hear them basically say, 'it's hopeless,' OR AT LEAST that is close to what I hear.
A lot of people give up at that point. Other than continue to fight for delegates, and promote the rally, I'm not sure what else you expect to be done. It 'seems' we can largely just try to educate, inform, and awaken the public. I'm suggesting that (God be willing there is a way) we can possibly seize an opportunity if Obama gets in (if all else fails)- as it would (could) likely 'cancel' out the last 'option' for 'salvation' in people's minds.
I'm generally speaking from what I know with friends of mine. In ways they have confirmed that 'if' the Democrats continue doing the same thing the Republicans are this time around- they are willing to believe something is 'majorly' up and believe they are 'on the same team' but currently they don't buy it. I've tried MANY, MANY ways to wake them up- and I suppose I'm suggesting there might be 'hope' at the end of the tunnel- even in a WORSE case scenario.
BUT- that shouldn't cause people to become complacent, but rather MORE vigilant, believing this IS possible. Otherwise, people I know just shut down, and you can't even talk about this with them, because they reply something to the effect of- "Well, if we can't really do anything- then why worry about it? We are essentially helpless, and let's not spend our 'remaining' time worrying about something we 'inevitably' can't control."
I TOTALLY disagree with this thinking- but that is the thinking a LOT of people begin to have when they think things are impossible. I suppose I'm suggesting a 'potential' positive to give myself and others hope as to NOT fall into that type of helpless behavior.
We will have to work like mad in the meantime to change the outcome, but ultimately we have no other choice to 'see what happens.'
GO RON PAUL!!!!!!
Youth
those of us with "experience" have learned this lesson over and over and over. I won't say how many "overs" should be in that sentence.
That is why we from the older Ron Paul supporters are desperate to have him in this election cycle. We have been fighting this stupidity our whole lives. There is always a younger generation "who just have to experience it for themselves."
Because of this phenomenon, our government (and company) have grown so large, with a little propaganda to recruit a few more voters, they outnumber us and we cannot turn our government around. It is becoming impossible. It is probably too late. It must be, because we are not succeeding.
We are beyond the point that we can think they way you are thinking.
Insanity :
Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.
To me it sounded...
It almost sounded like you are saying it is too late...
I simply know from psychology (something I'm well educated in) that when people feel they are running straight into a brick wall- they give up. Also known as 'Learned Helplessness.'
I suppose I don't see how a person can really 'go on' without thinking there is 'hope' because people typically give up prematurely.
So you're right, perhaps I don't/can't think like you do...
GO RON PAUL!!!!!!
Nope
you still don't understand me. I'll never give up. I suggest we redouble and try to get Obama's youth to understand now. Only the future will tell what we have to do then, but it could turn violent because it is so late. Never give up. Hope is very important. My hope isn't in living with Obama and hoping more wake up. My hope is in working really, really hard this next three months and get Ron Paul the Republican nomination. I am donating and supporting dvds4delegates. Supporting the Rally. Putting as much into the next three months as I have in the past year and a half. I hope we don't have to put up with Obama, but if we do then all we can do is what you say. Hope it works. That is plan about G on my agenda.
Very cool
I really like your spirit- keep it up, I'm proud of your efforts.
Thanks.
GO RON PAUL!!!!!!
Another thing- Polls indicate Americans are MORE dissatisfied...
Americans are MORE dissatisfied than in the past. 90% of Americans say we are heading in the wrong direction.
Bush has the lowest, or tied for the lowest approval rating of any president. Around 70% of Americans want us out of the war in Iraq. Voter turn out has been the highest in history. Records have been set for fund raising.
This is the first time America has EVER invaded another country first. A pre-emptive strike. That is big. That has never happened.
We also have 9/11. These are things that are different from past times.
NOT TO MENTION- we've never had a candidate 'quite' like Ron Paul. Some similar in times past- but nothing with as consistent and as clean of a record as Ron Paul has.
SO- I don't think that should be an 'argument' to sit idly by and 'think' things will improve- IT SHOULD BE FUEL TO BELIEVE THERE IS HOPE AND WE NEED TO CONTINUE FIGHTING.
GO RON PAUL!!!!!!