The folly of the case for illegal immigration
When you prohibit something, in the short-term you might get less of it. But in time it is inevitable that a black market arises despite this limit on supply (example: we have drug and prostitution illegalization, yet we have a black market in these areas).
Prohibition theory also applies to employment itself, to jobs. Thus, to overtly prohibit immigration will do nothing to stop people from simply immigrating anyways, just like prohibiting drugs does nothing to stop people from buying, selling and using drugs.
If you illegalize the hiring of "illegals", you will simply create a black market for those jobs, and thus those jobs will continue to exist. Simply put, there will always be willing sellers and buyers.
The answer to the question, "why do we have an immigration black market?" is "because immigration isn't free enough", "precisely because of the governmental limits on it that already exist".
Illegal immigrants are not
Illegal immigrants are not slaves. They are not abducted and brought here. They come here on their own will. You people are fooling yourselves with this thought that these people are being exploited. They drive big SUV's and often buy homes. All at the expense of the taxpayer. They get free everything and don't even have to buy car insurance or health insurance. They network with each other and find ways to work the system. I am sick of paying for people that break our laws and come here illegally. Making excuses for that is insane. No wonder our illegal population is out of control. If I wanted to live in a third world country then I would be there. We have a standard of living in the US and that is diminishing. This plus outsourcing is hurting alot of american citizens. If this is what Ron Paul stands for then I will no longer back him as my choice as a write in for the president. I'm very dissapointed now. Looks like I will have to vote for Chuck Baldwin. At least he makes SENSE!!! I'm over this crap. Good day. =(
The poor illegal immigrants are caught in the middle.
They are allowed into this country for the simple reason that most of them are used to being treated llike serfs( a more polite term than slave), and will put up with a great deal of injustice, even more than the average American. But the whole point is to drive down wages even further. James Michener wrote a book about the signers of the Constitution, what he found were letters from the signers, saying that some of them found it much cheaper to "free" their slaves. A slave is property, if you want your property to be valuable, the owner had to provide food, clothing, shelter, medicine and education (yeah, you needed to train slaves, some were taught to read and write and run business) etc. But if the slaves were free, then the person hiring them pays a wage, which is never enough to provide food, clothing, shelter, education, medicine etc. If the slave gets sick or injured an owner is responsible, if an employee gets sick or injured they are on their own. This is what bothers me about illegal immigration, it is turning 60% of our workforce into slaves, because we are not being paid enough to keep up with inflation, since an employer can hire an illegal immigrant for less than minimum wage, which everyone knows the minimum wage is not enough to live on.
In a nearly perfect world, I
In a nearly perfect world, I would agree, but the reason illegal immigration is problematic is because:
(a) We have a cradle-to-grave welfare state;
(b) We have public hospitals in every state that dispense free medical care to indigents and illegal aliens, and they are overloaded;
and
(c) We have an overregulated, sue-happy business world, and that's the primary reason employers hire illegal aliens in the first place.
In addition to all those reasons, I don't believe in Open Borders because the Founders rejected the idea. They believed in controlled immigration.
SUPPORT OUR FOUNDERS' AMERICA
Support the Constitution of the United States
SUPPORT OUR FOUNDERS' AMERICA
Support the Constitution of the United States
During WWII we didnt have
During WWII we didnt have enough men, so we invited Mexicans to come over the border and work our agriculture....now they are unwelcomed?
Yes, what ever happened to private property and
freedom of contract?
I'll hire whoever I damn please to come work on my property. Lou Dobbs can kiss my ass.
This is the one issue that I
This is the one issue that I generally avoid discussing because it is such an indicator of how much racism we still face. I even catch myself at times using race as an issue and I do not consider myself at all racist.
Maintaining an enemy is always a way keep control of the masses. So we have the "war on terrorism", and the "war on drugs". Hitler was able to rally many people by demonizing the Jews. The MSM is now doing this to the Arabs, the Persians, and the "illegal aliens"(Latin Americans).
Globalism in and of itself is not a bad thing. The group of elites secretly promoting their form of oligarchal, self fulfilling globalist agenda is the part that is frightening. Being a liberatarian I believe in freedom for everybody, not just people born in between two imaginary lines. I love our Constitution and think it the best way to estabish and maintain a Government. Of course, since we are not following this law now the system is broken. Also I think that small localized governments should have jurisdiction over there own affairs. But also at some point it is nessacary to have some type of world cooperation, just like the States joined the united States, the united Nations is needed to discuss global issues. Issues such as global climate change, ozone depletion, war, food, need to be discussed on a global scale. But we should all still be guaranteed our sovereignty. This is why the globalist want to keep their plan secret is because they want to take away our sovereignty and basically appoint themselves kings.
Anyway, my point is why do we need the silly boundaries anyways?. We just need our freedom. Call me unpatriotic, I am. I hate nationalism.
I often wonder though, that if everything was equalized, would we experience a delcine in our standard of living? Are we actually living our lives at the expense of some of the poverty in the world or is it multinational corporations that are the sole gainers of this poverty? I would defiantely choose to live on less if I am unknowingly plundering from the less fortunate.
Anyone, immigrant or citizen, excepting welfare, without ever paying into the system is also plundering the weath of others, and it is wrong. The whole welfare system is set up for failure. Politicians, of all people, should not be the ones to determine what to take from one person and decide who to give it to. It is not the immigrants that are the problem, it is our broken system.
Global gov't?
Why do you think the answer is more politicians?
Why not instead try more freedom?
"Government doesn't work." - Harry Browne (1933-2006)
no more politicians
Definately more freedom, and way less federal government, but I think there has to be some sort of international cooperation in global issues. I think climate change is a huge issue.
Maybe we could all use pig-latin as a global language. Hatway oday ouyay hinktay?
Edited
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NumbersUSA
Check out the videos and information at NumbersUSA.com for some interesting perspectives on immigration.
Illegal immigration
violates the "non-aggression principle" as an incursion against the property of others against their consent.
Just like the when the
Just like the when the Europeans wrenched this land from the Native Americans. Or when American settlers invaded Mexico and called it Texas. Right?
You
really are confused.
Am I? In what way?
Am I? In what way?
You're only looking at half the picture
Yes, there are instances where there is not consent.
And there is also instances where there is consent.
You are committing a logical error to say that every single case of "illegal" immigration is a violation of the NAP.
In this, as in many other
In this, as in many other issues, it is important to differentiate between ‘regulate’, as in making regular, and ‘ban’. Regulating the flow of people, particularly inbound, across its borders, may well be one of the very few legitimate functions of government in a civilized country. Completely open borders may sound fine and free in theory, but starts to get a bit problematic in practice. Like when some of the immigrants choose to cross the border in battle tanks while wearing combat fatigues and toting machine guns…
Anyway, wanting to ‘regulate’ immigration, and along with it comes securing our borders, is not anti-immigrant. It bothers me to no end, how ill informed yahoos try to label Ron Paul as a racist isolationist over this issue. Nowhere have I seen him advocating banning foreigners from entering the country; only making sure those who arrive here do so according to some kind of regular process. Which is equally applied to everyone. Not specifically favoring those who chose to break the law at an earlier date, by on a regular basis capitulating and providing them amnesty. The point is, no one can say for sure whether immigration would end up being larger or smaller in a Ron Paul world, only that it would be more regular and less criminal.
Why is controlling immigration a proper function of gov't?
What principle are you using to determine that?
Myself, I believe in private property.
If I lived on the border in AZ, I would decide damn well for myself if Mexicans were allowed on my property! I don't need some gov't bureaucrat telling me what to do.
Dr. Paul said it
In difficult economic times immigrants of all types become scapegoats.
They become political fodder. Targets for hatred and derision.
A "group" of people to blame our problems on.
Both my mother's side and father's side immigrated to this country.
In the mid 1600's.
This country "belonged" to indians of whom I am also descended.
People who want to stir up hatred always point at immigrants...it is a broken record....it has gone on since there was "someone here first."
I love the people who want to blame the immigrants for coming here and living on welfare.
Has anyone of you ever spent some time in the world of subsidized housing? I have. Your problem is NOT immigrants of whom you are also descended...unless you are full blooded Crow, Navajo...etc....your problem is your leaders who use the "immigrant thing" to control you.
The projects I worked in I know are "pens" full of so called American born who have been instructed to booze, drop out of high school, bear children before age 18, take drugs, 50% of the young males go to prison, become obese, watch TV and never ever ever set foot in a voting booth. The statistics are numbing. the immigrants of whom you are descended are not your problem. These folks are the people who need our time attention and help.
Freaking out over a person who risks his life to come here and take a job you wouldn't agree to take in 10,000 years is being downright
hypocritical now isn't it? You drive by the projects at 11am? Check it out...see how many shades are down.
You ever witness an INS sweep? Where does the INS go to find these "bad immigrants...?" Can you answer the question?
THE INS GOES TO JOB SITES TO ROUND UP ILLEGALS BECAUSE THEY ARE WORKING THEIR ASSES OFF! And the jobs they have? You gotta be kidding me.
The Hyatt and the Marriott HAVE to bring housekeepers in from other countries....do you hear me? No $400 a night room at the downtown Marriott for you. The hotel companies have entire divisions that spend all their time foreign guest worker visas BECAUSE NO AMERICAN WANTS TO CHANGE SHEETS FOR $9 AN HOUR.
This is America. You get in here and work crappy jobs so your children can have a shot. It is called bettering yourself.
Sounds like the way of the Lord to me.
Boston circa 1930 sings all over town on businesses...."No Irish." Estimates are that there were 60,000 to 100,000 illegal Irish in Boston at the time...you think they were taking all the good jobs...huh?
So what is happening now? The folks who got here in the 30's are turning around and saying no Mexicans?
Please stop watching TV...they are trying to convince you that people who fight for their lives to be here and work here are bad.
The TV lies about EVERYTHING....YOU THINK THEY ARE TELLING YOU THE TRUTH ABOUT ILLEGALS...BUT, THEY'RE LYING ABOUT EVERYTHING ELSE....right.
Unify
Situation
To solve the illegal immigration (not legal immigration) first you have to look at the root cause of why they are coming here.That is there are incentives to come here.They don't need to come here to assimilate into American culture,they can come here and find a job,housing,schooling,health care,Government assistance,social services and instant citizenship for children born here to illegals.If you were to shut off these programs,illegal immigration would stop overnight.The only immigrants that would come here would be the people who want to truly assimilate into the American populus like so many cultures before.Building a border fence won't stop it,more legislation won't stop it but cutting off the incentive will.
Well put
"Go after the root--not the branches!"
ps. Those are not the only reasons that people come here. A lot of them come to for employment and better opportunities, and do not go on welfare.
The incentive is simple.
You can work construction in El Salvador for $5 a day. You can cut grass in Illinois for $95 a day.
People aren't stupid.
The situation is NOT complicated.
The Irish were starving.....they came to America because they were hungry. There was no government assistance in 1930 for an immigrant. There was a job and some food.
That is the incentive...where they live is horrible.
They want a better life.
Unify
Well, we will need
all those illegal immigrants to work because this war starting up will require a draft and a shortage of workers to fill opening. Ugh! peace
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Governmental limits on it that already exist??????
It's not enforced! (the government limits) There is enough manpower, etc. to round up every illegal alien in this country and send 'em home. And employers of illegals should do jail time themselves just like apprehended prostitutes and druggies do jail time. Nafta, etc should be repealed so there are sufficient and decent-paying jobs for AMERICANS. Illegals also should not be allowed to get welfare, food stamps, etc. I support jobs and opportunities for Americans, not illegal aliens!
Berwick, Columbia County, Pennsylvania
Ron Paul 2012 - The People's Choice
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http://www.wethepeoplefoundation.org/UPDATE/Update2011-07-26...
that is where it gets scary...
some fed (there sure are plenty) comes in and says: CRACKDOWN!!! GIMME ALL YOUR EMPLOYEE RECORDS. YOU ARE IN VIOLATION OF THE LAW. HOW DARE YOU HIRE ILLEGALS AND THEIR FALSIFIED PAPERS! OFF TO THE GULAG WITH YOU, AND ALL OF YOUR ACCOMPLISES AS WELL.
Paul's worst issue is the idea of stopping something so terrible, like people working.
Don't get me wrong, I am totally opposed to government cheese handouts, whether to legal or illegal human beings. It is the idea of "Well, my family made it to Amerika, so quick, close the gates!" that is wrong.
THE MORE I LEARN ABOUT GOVERNMENT
THE MORE I LOVE MY GUNS
FourWindsTradingPost
THE MORE I LEARN ABOUT GOVERNMENT
THE MORE I LOVE MY GUNS
FourWindsTradingPost
There are limits
I agree, they are not enforced as much as some people would like. But to take that and conclude that there are no limits whatsoever is a clear logical error.
And did you read the post? You are arguing for exactly what it tries to show won't work.
Maybe I'm missing something here...I know the
word preciously threw me off--I think it was supposed to be precisely...
anyway, if actual jail time is a consequence for hiring illegals, to me it would diminish hiring illegals. To me there then would be no market to hire illegals. If illegals weren't allowed to collect welfare, food stamps, etc. (which I read somewhere runs in the billions of taxpayer dollars) taxes could go down, and some Americans could afford to work for a lesser-paying job. Also since that's one of the reasons some of them are here, perhaps they'd leave themselves. If our jobs came back to America, those lower-paying jobs which SUPPOSEDLY only illegals will do, could be snapped up by younger/other Americans seeking part-time work. I read an article in our local newspaper that a farmer wasn't going to grow his crop anymore here (big excuse in my opinion), he was going to go to corn/ethanol production because he couldn't find anybody to work the fields for $16/hr. Now that may not be alot of money in some places, but I live in the "infamous poverty pocket" spoken about years ago nationwide...many people in my area wrote in that they'd gladly take the job for $16/hr. Around here, that is a good-paying job. Soooo, maybe I get defensive when I hear excuses about illegals and why they should be allowed here or why they are necessary or why the problem can't be fixed or why it can't be changed. And to be quite honest, there is something else going on with me...a struggle of conscience, if you will. As most of you are aware, the Lakota recently seceded. LaRaza wants to reclaim the Southwest. The Lakota and other Native Americans were treated poorly. Should they have the right to secede? USA has forcefully taken alot of land from others. What is the honorable solution? Is LaRaza right? Where does it stop? I don't know.... But I do know our country is in an economic mess, we cannot afford to support illegals, and it upsets me when I read about their necessity... I have been struggling with this for awhile and thus far have not made any headway with it...
Berwick, Columbia County, Pennsylvania
Ron Paul 2012 - The People's Choice
rEVOLution SuperPAC: http://www.revolutionpac.com/
WTP Federal Lawsuit to BAN ALL ELECTRONIC VOTING
http://www.wethepeoplefoundation.org/UPDATE/Update2011-07-26...
It didn't work with drugs or alcohol
So why do you think the exact same tactics will work in the area of hiring immigrants?
ps. I corrected the thread post to read "precisely"
I can't get a citizen to
kick dirt in my yard for under $2000. Really. I have gone through the hassle of trying to get bids for jobs. I have also had bad experiences trying to hire people off of craigslist.org.
I can go to the parking lot in front of any super home do-it-yourself store or tree nursery and get as many strong workers as I can keep busy for $75 per day plus pizza and Gatorade.
If there was a comparably clean and sober looking guy with a sign that said, "Hire me, I'm an American" I would hire him in a second and if he turned out to be a hard worker, I would be happy to pay him $16 per hour.
it isn't about border control...
It is about socialism.
It used to be that folks came to the US for what they were free to do, now folks come to the US for what they can get for free.
If we stop giving away free medical, free education, and free food and housing, we would solve so many problems among US citizens, but we would solve 75% of the immigration problem. The other 25% would be solved by ending the war on drugs and the black market involved in that demand and supply system.
Extending liberty to ALL men everywhere would fix nearly every problem.
Is there even an immigration problem?
It seems to me that the problem lies specifically with the "welfare" that our politicians like to distribute.
I think labeling it as an 'immigration problem' causes confusion and shifts people away from the root of the problem.