*Update* Help me persuade my liberal friend about the importance of monetary policy
I have a friend who has a degree in literature from a highly acclaimed (albeit publicly funded) university. He is very astute in the critical analysis of essays and film (he recently introduced me to the Toulmin method, which is going to come in very handy in reading legal documents, but I digress...) Anyhow, I recently sent him (among other things) a DVD of "Money as Debt" and asked for his reaction. I should mention that he leans very far toward what is called the 'left' of the current two dimensional so-called political spectrum...
Here was his response:
i went ahead & watched the video and found it interesting at times but also unconvincing and ponderous and insulting. where are the multiple voices? the polyphony? It's one guy's narrow (and really long-winded) view of the history of money. his VO is an authorial God presence completely removed from the subjectivity of the speaking individual. The quotes are all removed from contexts and strung together as little soldiers to support his view: "here are a bunch of quotes i agree with."
the thing is that even history itself is multivocal, so when you get to
this level of abstraction, eliding all of the various complex positions
vis a vis concepts like value, money, debt and interest is doing a
disservice to the intellect of the viewer. This type of approach is not documentary, it is propaganda. it's an attempt to convince people to accept a range of very specific and controversial viewpoints wholesale with only the vaguest suggestion that rational people might disagree with any of these premises and conclusions.
Here's the thing, Vince. I am not convinced by what i take to be weak argument strategies. Even if i am given a reasonable, qualified claim (for example: "there may be better methods of regulating the value of currency in the US than the current system"), if the grounds, warrants, backing, etc., the structure and approach of the argument is not strong (i.e. well-qualified by seriously considering a range of reasonable counter-positions), i won't have the patience to deal with it. I need arguments that appeal to me at an intellectual, not just emotional level.
It would no doubt be very easy to make a film like this that creates the exact opposite impression using quotes, VO, animation, etc., and I would be just as skeptical of a film whose agenda was to defend international banking and the modern monetary system.
Not wanting to get into a debate about the aesthetics of the film, but rather the content, here was my response:
fair enough.
aesthetic judgments and critiques of the film aside, it is fact that
we are operating under a fractional reserve system, and regardless of anyone's opinions of this system vs. others, it should be readily apparent that under this system, those in charge have an awesome task at hand in regulating the money supply and protecting the value of the currency.
that said, take a look at these pages when you get a chance and give me your thoughts:
http://www.minneapolisfed.org/Research/data/us/calc/hist1800...
https://www.cia.gov:443/library/publications/the-world-factb...
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/BORROW
My question for my fellow DPers is, can you provide any more links for me to send his way? I'm looking for hard evidence of the failures of the fractional reserve system, rather than opinion pieces (though those may be useful too if coming from reputable enough sources). One of the things I really want to get across to him is the relationship between war and inflation (this is why I sent him the Minneapolis Fed link). I think the war/economy link is crucial to winning over many on the left. It seems to be the one area we need to make inroads into if we're going to become a force for real "Change".





















Show him G. Edward Griffin's videos
Once he realizes that the fed was JP Morgan's wet dream, there's a pretty strong chance he'll come around. Liberals tend to distrust Wall Street.
-jcr
"The problem with trying to child-proof the world, is that it makes people neglect the far more important task of world-proofing the child." -- Hugh Daniel
Send him two
Send him two books.
"Economics in One Lesson" by Henry Hzlitt
and "The Case Against The Fed" by Murray Rothbard.
If he isnt persuaded by those books. Then he, sir, is one idiotic friend and should be given up on.
More info related to his vocation
I've been thinking a lot and doing more research about how to further this conversation about the importance of understanding monetary systems and how they relate to every other facet of society. It's always important to try to reach people with facts that they can relate to based on their backround, career, interests, etc. I've often thought that a primer on spreading the message of liberty should be assembled somewhere (how to reach "party first" Republicans, how to reach Greenpeace advocates, or in my friend's case - how to reach educators). I've yet to come across such a primer, so perhaps this can be a start. Of course everyone is different and blanket statements will not always apply, but a resource like this could nevertheless be invaluable.
One thing I failed to mention in my original post is that my friend is a university professor of literature. Instead of focusing on his interest in literature I decided to dig up some info on our debt based money system and what actually collateralizes this debt. It wasn't long before I came up with this nugget (see the excerpt below), which explains pretty clearly how our children are being "assessed" for their future worth to society. I will be sending this to him soon and I will report back when I can.
Is Your Child ''Human Capital''?
Yes, According to the Architects of the New Global Economy
By Cindy Weatherly
December 10, 2003
What if your child's "assessed" worth doesn't meet
anyone's projected goal? Proponents of the Certificate
of Initial Mastery (CIM) and the Certificate of
Advanced Mastery (CAM) are, in truth, fleshing out the
skeleton of assigning a value to a person. Without the
CIM/CAM in those states adopting the concept a young
person will not be able to apply for a job, drive a car,
or do many other things which have never before been
predicated on governments' conferring a value on a
person's worth to society.
The People's Republic of China, a communist country,
uses "no conformity" -- "no job" policies to enforce its
"one child" policy. Have we understood the direction of
these changes? Is this constitutional or moral?...
During preparation for a workshop on educational policy
in 1982 I was asked by the host organization to prepare
a glossary of terms pertaining to my presentation. That
request seemed simple enough and a reasonable one, so I
set about compiling terms related to CBE (Competency-
Based Education) (forerunner of Outcome-Based Education
and promulgated by the same man Bill Spady), our fad-of-
the-moment in educational reformation toward illiteracy
in Georgia.
As I said, the task seemed simple enough. However,
while still in the "A's" of the alphabet, I developed an
overwhelming respect for professional compilers of
glossaries. The first word block I encountered was
"assessment". Sure it was familiar; we all knew it meant
'test'; but the longer I struggled to apply that
definition to CBE the more elusive "assessment's"
definition became.
The latest word for 'test' was "instrument" and that
proved easy to explain. But, "assessment" was a broader
term, "assessment" was the noun form of the verb
"assess". What did "assess" actually mean? The National
Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) had been in
use since its development in the latter 1960's. Had we
overlooked a change in emphasis by the Federal level of
education implied by the use of the word "assessment"
that could be significant?
Receiving no help from my small hill of accumulated
state department of education materials relating to
assessment, I decided to "read the instruction manual":
(Webster's New World Dictionary.) Webster's clearly
stated:
...
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http://www.dvds4delegates.com
"Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear."
~Ambrose Redmoon
What he said!
http://www.tragedyandhope.com
http://www.im2moro.com
there is nothing more exhilarating
than to offend a liberal and it's so easy. Can't wait for these fools to feel the pain once the tough times truly arrive here.
Schadenfreude...
...has its appeal. It is always satisfying to witness well-deserved suffering. Unfortunately, tovarisch, you and I will suffer along with the guilty. If we like our friends, "liberal" or not, then we'll likely do what we can to reduce their chances of suffering, just as we attend to our own.
PV = nRT
Professor Bernardo de la Paz
LXXI BC: Ego sum Spartacus // MDCCCLVII: I am Dred Scott // MCMVL: Ich bin Anne Frank // MMX: Je suis Assange // MMXI: Ik ben von NotHaus
I don't have any liberal friends
and never will. The only reason we will suffer is because there are too many of them and will automatically drag us down. Sorta like DOW tanks on a particular day or over certain period it tends to drag down even the best companies but not as much as the DOW itself.
So yes we can't beat the whole system by yourself but will suffer less than the usual idiots. The best way to be on top is to know how to benefit from this situation. Just recently you could have made a lot of money shorting financials or a safer way is to buy put options. It worked for me :)
Tell him to read "The Prince" by Machavelli.
Then "1984" by Huxley, and "The Art of War" by SunTzu. All of these books discuss finances, power and government. Indirectly perhaps, but they do discuss power. That is what has happened, war and finances are inextricably intertwined. Always has been, always will be. Since literature is his game, use literature to convince him. Also, remind him of the past, and point out the "let them eat cake" mentality of the elite now. The elitists are so far removed from reality now, and yet they claim that only they deserve to rule. Their attitute is "why don't those lazy poor people just pay thier bills and quit complaining all the time", not even understanding that with inflation and very little to no pay raises for the vast majority, that most people cannot make it anymore on what little we are allowed to earn.
Its to late for your Friend the organic sand bag.
We need not waste the time on people who don't have the ability to see. Put your time in those who are willing to do something. Here are some links of some comments I wrote. Maybe you can use something here:
http://www.dailypaul.com/...
http://www.dailypaul.com/...
http://www.dailypaul.com/...
http://www.dailypaul.com/...
See the book “The Creator form Jackal Island”.
JonQ.Publik
Live Free or Die! Because if you are not free you’re dead already!
JonQ.Publik
Resistance is not futile, what's futile is non-resistance.
Live Free or Die! Because if you are not free you’re dead already!
Opps!
Sorry!!
JonQ.Publik!
Live Free or Die! Because if you are not free you’re dead already!
This should fix it.
JonQ.Publik
Resistance is not futile, what's futile is non-resistance.
Live Free or Die! Because if you are not free you’re dead already!
Checking to see if this will
Checking to see if this will stop the running Italics.
____________________________________________________
"Freedom suppressed and again regained bites with keener fangs than freedom never endangered." -- Cicero
"Freedom suppressed and again regained bites with keener fangs than freedom never endangered." -- Cicero
I tried that in another
I tried that in another thread, it doesn't work. He actually need to fix his sig.
"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever." - Thomas Jefferson
"But, indeed, no private person has a right to complain, by suit in court, on the ground of a breach of the Constitution. The Constitution it is true, is a compact, but he is not a party to it."
Don't give up on your
Don't give up on your friend. He will get it eventually, though it may take some tough times to bring him through.
I like the Zimbabwe idea to get him started. Since he is so intent on a complete argument, with literary credentials, I would suggest you stop with the videos and give him something to read.
Mises.org has a number of great resources. Rothbard's "What Has Government Done To Our Money?" is the best starter, and comes highly recommended by Dr. Paul in "The Revolution". You can get it at mises.org/money.asp.
If he wants full arguments, its going to take tons of reading for both of you. Go take a look at the books, papers and audio files available at Mises.org. Start looking around at titles and abstracts to see what catches your attention. The Rothbard books on the history of money and banking are great.
Edit: He won't like libertarian sources? Then this is going to be difficult.
____________________________________________________
"Freedom suppressed and again regained bites with keener fangs than freedom never endangered." -- Cicero
"Freedom suppressed and again regained bites with keener fangs than freedom never endangered." -- Cicero
Oops, please fix your tags
You need to add one of these (without the spaces): < / i >
Or is it this?: < / em >
Otherwise, I love your suggestions.
************
http://www.dvds4delegates.com
"Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear."
~Ambrose Redmoon
What he said!
http://www.tragedyandhope.com
http://www.im2moro.com
John Q Public did that since
John Q Public did that since it started after me. Also, once someone replies to a post you can't edit it.
____________________________________________________
"Freedom suppressed and again regained bites with keener fangs than freedom never endangered." -- Cicero
"Freedom suppressed and again regained bites with keener fangs than freedom never endangered." -- Cicero
I have stickers
that say: "Death To Liberals" and I'm proud of it.
I recommend you send him
I recommend you send him these links:
The Mystery of Banking:
http://mises.org/mysteryofbanking/mysteryofbanking.pdf
written by Rothbard. It provides an in-depth analysis of the American banking system.
The Case Against the Fed.
http://mises.org/books/fed.pdf
another one by Rothbard.
Ohh here's a quick documentary about the subject:
http://mises.org/multimedia/video/Fed.wmv
These should be plenty.
"My theories explain, but cannot slow the decline of a great civilization. I set out to be a reformer, but only became the historian of decline."
- Ludwig Von Mises
Have him watch
Ten Peter Schiff interviews.
here is one and he has an archive on his site as well.
http://www.europac.net/Schiff-Fox-8-6-08_lg.asp
Man was born to be free and independent
Inflationary Depression Bump
http://mschaut.wordpress.com/2008/03/01/inflationary-depress...
-"Ron Paul cured me of my predilection for Che Guevara T shirts."
Like I said, you don't understand, in my opinion.
"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." Benjamin Franklin
---
government of the people, by the people, for the people
---
Quote a single sentence or paragraph that you disagree with.
Then say why you disagree with it.
I also have a couple of questions for you:
1. Do you agree with Ron Paul on the importance of returning America to commodity money?
2. Do you agree with the position that Ron Paul takes in the following interview?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyYyNaJxjLE
-"Ron Paul cured me of my predilection for Che Guevara T shirts."
It would be a waste of time, I think. I've already explained,
"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." Benjamin Franklin
---
but it's as if you never read what I wrote. The person who started this thread understood what I wrote, so I assum you would too if you were serious.
government of the people, by the people, for the people
---
monetary policy
Many ideas can be wrapped up in "monetary policy". What does this phrase mean to you?
Does it mean:
who controls interest rate
who controls supply of money
how wealth is created/saved/lost
how gov't budgets are financed (tax or spend). (federal or state/local govt's)
availability of credit
fractional reserve banking
gov't sponsored/backed credit via fannie/freddie
Monetary policy affects everything.
This is an interesting subject, and it can be easy to discuss peripheral topics for hours with friends.
It takes time to shift our thinking. It may take your friend a year or more.
Consider asking your friend open-ended questions that may lead to the questioning of our monetary policy, such as:
I wonder if we didn't have the Fed to print unlimited money to finance the Iraq war spending, and instead had an explicit IRAQ WAR TAX, if we would still be in Iraq. (In other words, if you want to reduce our wars then reduce the facility to finance wars.)
Wow, my car insurance rates just went up, and I didn't have an accident. This inflation is affecting everything I need to buy!
The Fed was created in 1913. We got along without the Fed before that, so I wonder why we really needed the Fed? Was it was created to give favor to some special interests (elite bankers)?
http://FlipFlopRomney.blogspot.com
Well framed
If someone doesn't understand monetary policy they will be unable to begin to answer any of these questions without diverting the attention away from the fact that they do not understand.
"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever." - Thomas Jefferson
"But, indeed, no private person has a right to complain, by suit in court, on the ground of a breach of the Constitution. The Constitution it is true, is a compact, but he is not a party to it."
Graphs...
Not sure if same of the source info but two very good graphs here:
http://www.inflationdata.com/inflation/Inflation_Rate/Long_T...
Looks similar to what I saw in thread here but not sure. There is a DIGG on this one too!
http://digg.com/business_finance/1_929_Inflation_Data_Graph_...
Trust in God, but tie your camel tight.
"Socialism needs two legs on which to stand; a right and a left. While appearing to be in complete opposition to one another,they both march in the same direction." - Paul Proctor
Thanks to everyone for your
Thanks to everyone for your responses.
GREEDisBAD, I see that you originally suggested moving on to someone else. First of all, this is a good friend, and our conversations often get pretty involved in social and political topics. Second of all, this guy is one of the toughest nuts to crack that I've encountered, and rising to meet the challenge can only sharpen my skills (and perhaps win a new convert in the process; one who writes a weekly column in widely read newspaper to boot). I suppose I should have prefaced my original post with these thoughts.
Papillon2, your suggestions are well taken, and a little further down the road in the conversation I may go to those sources. For now, getting him to take a look at hard statistical evidence from as close to the source as possible is my first goal (hence my inclusion of links to two Fed sites and a CIA site). For now, he's too well read to point him toward anything with a libertarian bent without him sniffing it out (I will never forget the line of reasoning he once gave me a few years ago for dismissing libertarian thought: "I like many of the principles offered by libertarians, but who wants to pay an entrance fee every time they enter a public park?" I realized the weaknesses in this statement right away, but we haven't really discussed the topic much again until recently). He knows who Lew Rockwell is, and I while I heartily agree with the Strike the Root article, he will sniff out sentences like "The first of those crime-like ways is coercive taxation" as libertarian bias right off the bat, and will read the rest of the article with suspicion. The topic of how war nearly always relates to a sharp rise in inflation is something I am keeping in my hip pocket for now. It's the reason I sent him the Minnesota Fed page, hoping that he will stumble across this correlation be browsing through the numbers and picking out which years had the most inflation. On that note, I will read the Smedley Butler article and keep it stockpiled for the future if I find it useful. Thanks for the links.
dfwrider, you nailed it with this statement: "To get beyond "the argument" you need to track down stuff that just describes the mechanisms. Then you read a little history behind the mechanisms. Then you read some philosophy related to the history of the fed, banking in this country, monetary policy. Then you look at modern day action/reaction as The Fed does it's thing. Then you go back and look at history again. You won't find the answer in a single article or even dozens of them. The answer is spread across disciplines, media, time, etc." Thanks for providing a playbook I can go by.
Cameron_DeHart, I feel like you aren't completely sold on Ron Paul yourself yet. If you haven't seen the film, and you profess to not knowing much about monetary policy, the perhaps you should do some more investigation into the topic. In many peoples' opinions (mine included) it's the root cause of nearly everything that is going wrong with our society.
BeaReady, I'd love to see that graph you mentioned. Perhaps someone will dig it up.
Brit4RonPaul, thanks for reminding me about the Zimbabwe situation and the related issues. When the discussion comes back around to America, I would love to have some facts and figures about what percentage of our remaining manufacturing jobs are *defense* related. I will definitely use that line of reasoning (with the caveat that GREEDisBAD pointed out about the deflation that will occur when people stop using "money" (debt). It has often occurred to me that perhaps we should be collecting paper FRN's now, since they are only 3% of the "money" supply. Some day soon they may actually have value as collector's items!)
************
http://www.dvds4delegates.com
"Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear."
~Ambrose Redmoon
What he said!
http://www.tragedyandhope.com
http://www.im2moro.com
As I've pointed out below to GREEDisBAD
Deflation will NOT occur if the central bank bails out all the private banks.
There are two kinds of "funny money".
1. fiat legal tender.
2. commercial paper.
Theoretically, I could sell you Brit4RonPaul bonds today that would pay $1.50 for every $1.00 purchased in one years time.
Theoretically, I could make some stellar investments with your money, pay the bond on maturity and still have some profit left. What if I don't?
Imagine the UK government says "no bank left behind" and bails me out, paying your bond when it matures?
What happens then? Commercial paper becomes fiat legal tender!
-"Ron Paul cured me of my predilection for Che Guevara T shirts."
Meet the Fed
Meet the Fed
http://www.restoretherepublic.com/content/view/1240/71/
----
The Antidote to neoCon Koolaid: www.dvds4delegates.com
"We really do have...a once in a lifetime opportunity to take the Republican Party back to where it was." -Kent Snyder, 1959-2008
----
"...a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people." -John F. Kennedy
Fiat currency and the income tax pay for war
That's the main problem with our "monetary policy" -- it is a means of stealing VAST wealth from the people who create it, and funneling that wealth to bureaucratic empires and favored corporations and special interests. War is among the most profitable examples; see "War is a Racket" by highly-decorated Major Butler Smedley for more on that.
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html
Two columns that cover the topic of how our monetary policy harms Americans and others:
Fund Government Like We Fund Apple
http://www.strike-the-root.com/81/allport/allport10.html
An excerpt:
"Among the most common objections to a non-coercive, civil society is the funding question: 'Where would money for X or Y come from, without taxes?' The obvious answer is that the money would come from the same place it comes from now: the people. There is no magic 'funding fairy' to supply government with money; all government money comes from the people, one way or another. Some of this money comes from user fees, but most of it is obtained in ways that are serious crimes – except when the government does them.
"The first of those crime-like ways is coercive taxation, including the income tax, sales taxes, and many other taxes, all of which come down to: 'Give us your money, or else. We'll use the money as we decide, and you have to pay even if you are appalled at what we do with the cash.' The second major funding method for the U.S. government is counterfeiting: printing up money from thin air, mostly by the government-chartered monopoly of the Federal Reserve (video; an excellent and recent Ron Paul interview on Fox News about the Fed; 8 min 48 sec [see original for link]). Each new dollar-from-nothing reduces the value of every existing dollar. The extent of this theft-via-inflation is seen in the staggering rise in prices since the Fed's creation in 1913 – when twenty dollars bought roughly an ounce of gold and bread was a nickel a loaf.*"
Money
http://www.strike-the-root.com/72/allport/allport15.html
An excerpt:
"The destruction of money is a threat to both love and freedom; the death of a currency means poverty, hardship, and emotional pain for all but the most fortunate. Violence and even war are common side effects, as are political repression (including, in many cases, detention camps for dissenters and scapegoats) and other epic violations of human rights."
By the way, I agree with him. Most of the material available mak
ing the argument against the Fed is propaganda like, while many found "Freedom to Fascism" inspiring and informational, I found it insulting, conspiratorial and slanted to the degree that it makes the viewer question everything said.
Free and Brave
or Cradle to Grave
You can't have both
Free and Brave
or Cradle to Grave
You can't have both
There is a lot of propaganda
There is a lot of propaganda out there for Ron Paul. And I don't see that it's a problem. Some people operate on that level. I myself have moments where critical thinking is in gear. Other times I just want to be inspired and lifted.
Have you read anything from Ayn Rand, Von Mises, or even stuff about The Fed that isn't making an argument i.e. it's just describing the mechanics? To get beyond "the argument" you need to track down stuff that just describes the mechanisms. Then you read a little history behind the mechanisms. Then you read some philosophy related to the history of the fed, banking in this country, monetary policy. Then you look at modern day action/reaction as The Fed does it's thing. Then you go back and look at history again. You won't find the answer in a single article or even dozens of them. The answer is spread across disciplines, media, time, etc.
Here's some more propaganda for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bm-tL-Kn3pE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpATNp5DjYI