My main problems with the two 'other' candidates.
There are somethings that I agree with Mr.Baldwin on, and somethings on which I disagree with him. These things keep me from singling him out as a my Ron Paul replacement.
According to the Constitution Party platform, the party is against euthanasia and abortion. It may be the little libertarian in me (for I am a political mutt) but I hold the radical belief that if it is your will to end your life, then that is the way. For someone to tell me that although I lie in a vegetative state and can no longer feed myself or think for myself, and I have expressed in writing that I wish to die, I somehow MUST live because I am a 'gift from God' or something, is simply absurd. I believe the most rewarding freedom one can have is to kill yourself (sounds morbid, I know) If it is my wish, who are you to deny me that? The party's stance on abortion is hazy, so an explanation would help me out tremendously. Thanks.
Also...Their stance on illegal immigration is offensive, in my opinion. Anti-Immigrant advocates are not only quick to ignore their own immigrant status, and the illegal and violent immigrant status of our ancestors, but they also have almost no grasp on history/sociology. It is my observation that many people who oppose illegal immigration ignore the human element of immigration, the difficulty of the whole process, the history of the region (used to belong to Mexico, before the Texans took it away), the history of America ASKING Mexicans to come to America, and the history of migration. Its also obvious that racism is at least slightly involved in the anti-immigration movement.
Also...the CP opposed same-sex marriage. This stance is the anti-thesis (the definition of antithesis, in my opinion) of personal freedom and the liberty that our Founding Fathers (they you all worship so much) had in mind. The party holds that states have the right to ban 'offensive sexual behavior.' I guess that stance would have been used to justify anti-miscengenation laws in the South not so long ago. Its all silly. Along the same lines, the party opposes pornography. This is a classic example of religious views getting in the way of liberty.
The party's stance on the second amendment is that they fully support the amendment, and view it as it so bluntly states: average people can have guns. But they like to pick and choose which parts of the constitution to take lightly and which to take seriously. To them, porn isnt covered by the first amendment. ",,,the party maintains that government plays a "vital role" in establishing and maintaining the highest level of decency in America's community standards." This is BS. I dont need to be told what is right or wrong. I can think for myself, I dont need your God's advice.
And now to Bob Barr.
Ahh...BobBarr the Elephant. As a teenager or young adult, it is completely understandable to have one opinion, and then change it. You are finding yourself. To be a full grown adult, have opinions, campaign on those issues, win elections on those issues, serve on committees for these issues, sponsor laws for these issues, vote on these issues, and then 'suddenly' change your mind on most of those ideas, and then claim to be a defender of these new ideas is a little fishy. BobBarr's past is what keeps me from grabbing onto him.
For example:
A mere ten years ago he was THE opponent of medical marijuana. The whole 'Barr amendment' fiasco warrants concern. And then he changed his mind a few years later? Whats up? You don't fight your way through court and Congress, and then just 'change your mind.'
He AUTHORED and SPONSORED the Defense of Marriage Act. Enough said. Bigotry.
Some bring up that Bob Barr voted for the Patriot Act. Others counter that he did so in order to add sunset clauses. Okay. I can at least understand and respect that decision. Then he apologized and said he regretted his vote for the Patriot Act? Well, which is it? Did he vote in order to put limits on it, or did he really not like it? Hindsight is a bitch.
Voted for the Iraq War Resolution.
One of the things that most pisses me off, is his movement to ban Wicca in the military. Even though: "It meets the criteria for a religious belief specified in the Civil Rights Act of 1964. It has been recognized as a valid religion by at least two U.S. district courts. It has hundreds of thousands of followers in the U.S. "
Quote: "What's next? Will armored divisions be forced to travel with sacrificial animals for Satanic rituals? Will Rastafarians demand the inclusion of ritualistic marijuana cigarettes in their rations?..." Sounds pretty intolerant to me. I am an atheist, and I think that kind of mockery of religion is outrageous.
Sounds like a LINO.
If Ron Paul doesnt run third party, I dont know who I am going to vote for. Obama, Green, and Nader are the only ones that I can stand out of the rest.
Slightly disconcerting post
It scares me that some totally disregard economic freedom via laissez-faire Capitalism, and are only concerned with social issues pertaining to freedom. Not once in the above essay was any shred of economic freedom mentioned, and that disregard is even more so obvious by the fact that he would vote for Obama, Mckinney, or Nader over either Baldwin or Barr. Yikes...
Baldwin and Barr have a more complete freedom message than that of the the others mentioned. I personally am more concerned with economic freedom, and I would never consider voting for either Obama, Mckinney, or Nader due to their lack of regard for economic freedom which is clearly evident in their wanting to expand the illogical and disastrous entitlement system. In a "free" society the idea of an entitlement system is preposterous.
Sorry for the resurrection
I just came across this thread, and felt I would reply to this.
You are right: economic freedom isnt one of my top issues. I dont like being taxed, I dont like American reaching its hands into the rest of the worlds business. Government is too big. But in my opinion, a few of the richest in this nation, those that most would call the Elite, those who 'really run this nation', those making millions...hell...billions of dollars a year, those oil companies with record profits......those folks can spare a few million in taxes. The richest of the rich are the last who deserve to be exempted from taxes. The middle class gets hit with taxes, record gas prices, record food costs, etc......and some Rockefeller cant buy his 70th jet? So what?
If a few taxes are going to prevent people from dying in the streets, are going to help some homeless veteran get back on his feet, a single mother feed her baby, whatever, then I say it is worth it.
And ask Latin America about laissez-faire capitalism. Coca Cola murders union leaders there. They privatize their water, and it stays just as dirty as before except now it costs more. The privatize healthcare, and they can't afford. They privatize everything, and it becomes a luxury.
This gets back to my statement a while back when I said that in its purest form, socialism would be the most favorable system.
I think the Immortal Technique put it best in 'Open Your Eyes':
"We were promised a better life in our home countries, where we were told that privatising water and electricity will make things run more efficiently. Instead the quality remained almost the same and the price was increased until it became an unaffordable luxury. Some corporations are more efficient than government, but their motivation is not the health or the well being of the people, it's only about profit, everything else, their image, their human resources, their public relations, only exist to protect the reality behind it. Once upon a time, we were told that nationalisation would prevent growthy by limiting competition, that our countries were nothing without the companies that invested in us and so they privatised everything, everything in our country was owned by people that had no connection to our culture, by those who never had our interests at heart, they didn't care about our survival or well being, they just wanted to turn a profit by raping our land, by exploiting our people, our industry and our resources."
You think America is different? You think Wal-Mart cares about people? Do you? At least a representative government, in theory, has an obligation to the people to ensure they can have their needs met. If someone cannot meet their needs by themselves, then they ask someone else who has succeeded in life for help. That person, if he cares for his fellow man (AKA if he has a heart), should be willing to give up a tiny portion of his earnings for his brother.
I do not advocate, nor do I think anyone here or in the American public arena, Marxist socialism, which calls for government ownership of factories or means of production. That is anti-freedom. Some may say that socialized medicine doesnt work, in places like Canada or Great Britain or that the taxes are too intense. First off, the taxes need to ensure the survival of our fellow Americans PALES in comparision to the taxes needed to sustain our massive empire around the world. Like Ron Paul has proposed, if we cut most of our foreign spending, we can use that money to support those that are in the welfare system, until they can be weened off. Secondly, if socialized medicine doesnt work, then lets find a way to fix it. As far as I have seen, privatized medicine doesnt work either.
So....thats that. Please dont call me a troll or a mole or a socialist. This is all theoretical. Be mature...and counter my arguments maturely.
Thanks.
Okay, I won't call you an idiot this time,
and I'll address your issues point by point.
#1) Euthanasia.
You contend it is your right to end your life, and it is. No argument.
However, it is not your right to order or authorize anyone else to do it, because that is murder. If you want to do it, you must do it yourself. The CP position does not "ban suicide". It simply refuses to sanction murder as a federal policy, In any case, murder is a state crime, and should be left there.
#2) Abortion
The CP stance is to leave it to the states, so that the people can rule on it as a state issue.
They can feel any way they want to feel about it, as long as they don't make federal laws about it. Again, murder is a state crime.
#3) Illegal immigration
It's illegal. What else is there to say? Border control is one of the few actual duties that the federal gov't should perform.
You don't like it? Then get enough people to vote to change the law. You won't be getting me on board your bandwagon.
#4) Same sex marriage
CP clearly leaves that up to the states. What they think about it doesn't matter, as long as no federal laws are made abridging freedoms, nor creating special privileges. It's a state matter, not a civil rights issue.
#5)Pick and choose
As you can see, they are not picking and choosing, but you are picking and choosing to assert their personal positions are somehow going to become law, even though the platform states they are not. This is a common problem with anti-CP zealots. They can't separate statements of personal belief from written platform statements, so they think that the CP members can't either. Be glad that they are at least telling you up front what they think, so you can know. Unlike other politicians.
#6) Barr
Not my problem since I'm not a Barr supporter. Theoretically, as a quasi-Libertarian he should at least lean a little in the freedom direction, in comparison to the mainstream ninnies..
Last) Obama,Green, Nader
Well, I suppose that if there isn't somebody with no flaws in their freedom message, you may as well vote for some communist tyrant, or so you seem to think.
Even not being a Barr supporter myself, I'd pick Barr over Obama, Green, or Nader in a NY second.
From your statements though, it seems social liberalism is your main concern, and nothing regarding fiscal sanity or monetary policy, or debt, or taxation, or socialist wealth redistribution programs, or size/power of gov't, or anything else as far as I can see, so you may very well feel alot more comfortable in with the left wingers, and maybe you should vote that way.
From my perspective in the peanut gallery
I'd have to toss you a few roses for that stellar performance.
Libera me, let the truth break, what my fears make--Leslie Phillips
But that man should play the tyrant over God, and find Him a better man than himself, is astonishing drama indeed!~~D. Sayers
There is no difference between an authoritarian government from the right or the left...F. A.Schaeffer
I would like to know why
I would like to know why 2008 Libertarians do not support social liberty.
And, I think you said, that the Federal government cant infringe on liberties, but the states can?
They do. Remember this is a
They do. Remember this is a federal election. Barr & Co. wants to scale back federal involvement in the drug war (well, at least wrt Marijuana), and get the Federales out of marriage and abortion. That’s not necessarily being against social liberty. But it is being for a smaller federal government.
Also, the whole point of the LP nominating Barr was to run a candidate that could get some serious number of votes. Otherwise they would have run a ‘better’ candidate, like Ruwart. Dwelling on controversial issues is unlikely to accomplish that.
You also have to remember that a federal government powerful and unrestrained enough to overrule state legislators and impose social liberalism against local will, is also powerful enough to overrule the states and take those rights away. So, ‘copping out’ and saying ‘leave it to the states’ isn’t necessarily that bad of a deal from a social liberals perspective, even if it means some states may enact less liberal legislation than what you would prefer.
Please don’t let the
Please don’t let the perfect get in the way of the good.
Whatever evils Barr might have been part of or is planning, in the big scheme of things, his vision for America is one with a substantially smaller and less invasive federal government than that of any of the majors. Same goes for Baldwin. Barr’s peculiar obsession with Wicca in the military, notwithstanding. No one ever said the guy was perfect. Just a lesser evil than McCain and Obama. And certainly than the ‘no government is ever too invasive as long as it ‘leaders’ pretend to be hip and say they want to help somebody’ crazies even further out on the leftist fringe than Obama.
In order for republican strategists to ever take us seriously as a movement, we must present them with a large, solid block; voting for smaller government with some consistency. That way, if they lose this time around, they know in what direction to shift their program to get our support next time. If we don’t, and instead end up voting for socialists and worse; we will have proven that we are just the latest in a string of protest movements with no central theme, way too volatile and directionless to ever attempt building a winning strategy around.
oops
wrong thread
Come to my town!
Before you go on about illegal immigration, you NEED to come and spend a couple of weeks in the midwest town I live in! We get the "best of the worst" here! Even the legals are afraid of them and our crime rate has tripled in the last 2 years, so don't sit up on your high horse until you know everything! I am all for legal immigration, my great grandparents came through Ellis Island, and I have many friends who are working their butts off to become an American that resent the hell out of the illegals coming in and wanting a free ride. They get so many handouts while citizens of this country work hard and have nothing. And before you claim that they are here for a better future or to do the jobs we won't, know this, they come here because of our welfare system (yes I do know this for a fact!) and in this town white people do NOT get hired for the jobs, we have white people stand in line at 2:00 am to get a chance for an interview at 7:00 and are ignored. So I say again before you try to pretend you are informed come here for awhile oh but please protect you SSN because they use them to get paid!
Mexicans fault? Or the fault
Mexicans fault? Or the fault of the companies, who have betrayed their countrymen?
Scapegoats.
Not an either or propsition here
both the ones who hire illegal aliens and the government are to blame, as are the illegals themselves!.
Libera me, let the truth break, what my fears make--Leslie Phillips
But that man should play the tyrant over God, and find Him a better man than himself, is astonishing drama indeed!~~D. Sayers
There is no difference between an authoritarian government from the right or the left...F. A.Schaeffer
Then why are the brown
Then why are the brown people the ones being attacked?
I think you need to re think
I think you need to re think calling yourself a libertarian.
There is NOTHING libertarian about you.
Really? Go on. Analyze me,
Really? Go on. Analyze me, please.
Your scum. Your uneducated.
Your scum. Your uneducated. You know absolutely nothing of what you speak. Your what we call, an idiot.
I think you read Karl Rove's
I think you read Karl Rove's book. Because you are really really good at ignoring the facts, evading your opponents advances, not expressing your own opinions, and then attacking the character of the one you wish to hurt. You're better at name-calling than constructive debate. You, my friend, are the real scum. You offer nothing to this thing called humanity. You are an idiot and you are far removed from reality that you are better off living in your paultard doomsday bunker.
DeFart
Your so right. He did read Roves book. He is real scum and you are the scrubbing bubbles to save us all from him. You are born in reality and are not removed from it. You have no bunker for there is no doomsday. Your not a Paultard for you do not believe there is a Ron Paul. You are a god among men DeFart. A God.
lol..........................
lol.......................................
“A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on, and are punished.” (Prov. 22:3; 27:12 KJV)
Hey McCain-----┌П┐(◣_◢)┌П┐
Oh, dont even dare about
Oh, dont even dare about questioning my activism. I have given up more for this movement than you would ever dream about trying to attempt.
Im dedicated, educated and work very very hard for the movement.
But that is not why I wont debate you on the issue of you being a complete moron. I could argue till im blue in the face and nothing would get through the thick skull of yours. You have attacked everything that is true and traditionally libertarian on this site. Everything that is remotely conservative has been torn apart with your useless rhetoric. You are unwelcome, you are unliked and you are uneducated. You have no concept of a truely free nation and Im not sure why Im even arguing with now other than I have done my work for the day and have been slightly amused by reading your feeble attempts at slandering our good and pure movement. Find yourself another home sir. For you dont belong here. You do nothing for the movement and do nothing for the idea either. A simple history lesson done on your part would warrant you giving every single person on this forum a deep apology. But you are no man and you wouldnt want to admit your an idiot. You know, there are countries that enjoy having your kind around. I suggest you move to one. I think China might be a good fit.
Remember your current government loves you. So much that they will give you social welfare and take care of you always.
Scumbag
Were there any examples in
Were there any examples in there? If not, then you are only blowing hot air.
Examples of what, What I
Examples of what, What I have done.
Well,
I spent 3 months organizing Revolution March. Everything you saw on the Capitol Grounds was put there by my planning. And yes I worked very very hard on it and am very proud of it. Or the thousands of DVDs I passed out on the streets of Chicago for Ron Paul. How about the websites Ive ran. The money I have donated. the time and energy I have spent and the tears and sweat I have given this country.
And Im not even close to being done. I wont stop till we take it back.
What have you done past cause problems.
GO AWAY your not welcome here.
Examples of my
Examples of my anti-libertarianism. I dont want to read about you blowing yourself.
The Defart Has spoken
And he wants not to read about you bloing yourself.
He wants to read about you being blown by himself.
The Defart likes that kind of stuff cause its what Defarts do.
its better to blow hot air
its better to blow hot air then what you blow!
“A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on, and are punished.” (Prov. 22:3; 27:12 KJV)
Hey McCain-----┌П┐(◣_◢)┌П┐
DeFart
He Is blowing hot air. You are a God Defart. You Know all! All hail Defarticus.
lol... omg...... to funny!
lol... omg...... to funny! stomach is starting to hurt!
“A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on, and are punished.” (Prov. 22:3; 27:12 KJV)
Hey McCain-----┌П┐(◣_◢)┌П┐