Libertarian Discussion #1

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Please give me your thoughts.

"As an American citizen, should I be free to develop a small nuclear energy facility in my basement?"

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I ran nuclear reactors in the Navy...

and I don't think you could pull it off without radiating yourself or your neighbors. I mean, you'd need a containment facility at the very least.

Now, if you had the room, say you lived in the country and had several acres bare minimum, and you built a containment facility and somehow you got ahold of some enriched uranium... in other words, if you could do it without polluting your neighbors environment, I don't see a problem with it.

Remember, libertarian philosophy is you can do whatever you want as long as you don't infringe on the rights of another... so if you can build a nuclear reactor safely, I don't see where there should be a problem with it.

However, if you screw it up, you should be punished severely.

It's a rather impractical suggestion, but an interesting argument.

The answer is Yes--if the

The answer is Yes--if the nearest neighbor's home is twenty miles away.

Otherwise, I would consider it an industrial zoning issue. If it's easily capable of destroying the homes and people surrounding you, it supercedes the concept of property rights. At least in my libertarian world, you don't have the right to build a toxic waste dump or a lead smelter in your backyard next door to me, because in so doing you are endangering my life and MY property.

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It plays out this way

It plays out this way :

A bunch of folks around you...we'll call them your neighbors, who aren't scientists, libertarians, democrats, or republicans....they're just people...they'll find out about your contraption and goals.

They'll complain to the city officials. An inspector will come by. If by some miracle city officials allow you to proceed, you will still have the ire and suspicion of your neighbors to contend with.

At some point, people with scientific backgrounds will demand to see your activities. Already being bombarded by the press, and your crazy neighbors, and misc people threatening you, you will be very reluctant to allow even scientists to have access.

After a while, people will grow impatient, a mob of local citizens will smash and burn your house to the ground.

I think that about covers it.

EXCEPT for the impenetrable

EXCEPT for the impenetrable grid of drone guns I have protecting my property...lol.

yes!!! defense grid is good!

yes!!! defense grid is good! ;-)

As long as you don't polute your neighbors property.

Where would you get the technology and the supply of uranium?

Where would you dispose of the spent rods?

This is a very interesting topic.

I have a feeling, if it wasn't safe, you won't be in business for very long.

What about the privatized grid?

How would you connect up?

They would have some culpability if you did not provide safe power.

Would they allow you to do so?

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This is the dumbest thing

This is the dumbest thing ever.

Oh, that's right

Yes, it sure is dumb to attempt to understand the true nature and meaning of libertarianism through this intellectual exercise isn't it?

Oh, that's right--you're an anti-intellectual. Please disregard my comment.

I'm sure everyone here appreciates your less than constructive accession to this discussion.

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The Antidote to neoCon Koolaid: www.dvds4delegates.com

"We really do have...a once in a lifetime opportunity to take the Republican Party back to where it was." -Kent Snyder, 1959-2008

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"...a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people." -John F. Kennedy

As long as you follow safety and health regulations.......

....my guess is that you could. You can build an atomic bomb anywhere. Two men did it back in the 1960's for a project. They just went to the library and got books explaining how. Google Dobson and Selden.

basement neuc.

Well I don't think there is a problem untill you seek out the enriched uranium.

OPs

OPs

Maybe

The US Constitution grants the Federal Government no power to regulate such a thing UNLESS you presented an imminent threat to National Security by clearly intending to build a nuclear weapon. If you are just building a reactor, no Federal power to interfere.

State governments have the authority to interfere. Should they? Not if you are just trying to produce energy.

That leaves a lawsuit by your neighbors. If your activities present a strong probability of causing injury to your neighbors (for example because you are messing around with enriched uranium without proper containment) they should be able to sue and get an injunction preventing you from continuing what you are doing.

Absolutely brilliant

Absolutely brilliant argument. You've settled it for me. Your reasoning pretty much fuses with bfling's thoughts below. Peace out!

Non coersion is the core of the libertarian philosophy.

A right cannot be something which must be had at the expense of others. You have the right to do what you want with your property as long as you do not threaten your neighbor.

It depends on the type of libertarianism.

There is more than one kind. I don't subscribe to the kind you're referring to. I subscribe to consequentialism. That just says to maximize liberty, including if maximizing it requires coercion. It's the most sensible libertarianism in my opinion, because it doesn't get you stuck having to defend things like allowing everyone to keep a nuke at their home.

Consequentialism

ANOTHER thing to look into. ;-)

It is moot...

because the knowledge and materials needed to do such a thing would cost so much that it would far outweigh the benefits of creating your own energy in that manner.

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I can know of no greater functional movement than a 600lb deadlift. Except a 700lb deadlift. Cuz when you are that strong, it's functional.
www.crossfit.com

intellectual exercise

I think the whole point of the topic is an intellectual exercise--not a practical discussion in the sense that you (logically) described.

----
The Antidote to neoCon Koolaid: www.dvds4delegates.com

"We really do have...a once in a lifetime opportunity to take the Republican Party back to where it was." -Kent Snyder, 1959-2008

----

"...a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people." -John F. Kennedy

you can do it, but be

you can do it, but be prepared to have your house stormed by angry neighbors with rifles in a world without government

absolutely not. As I would

absolutely not.
As I would see it, that would be a danger to everyone around you. And while you are free to do what you want with your own life. You can't effect others at your own will. I believe that someone posted that the constitution doesnt prohibit it. That doesnt make it constitutional though. The arguement that if the constitution doesnt prohibit it explicitly, then it must be constitutional, is the arguement that has destroyed the constitution.
It is that arguement that has expanded presidential war powers.

"Who Killed The Constitution" by Dr. Thomas E. Woods.

oh, you don't accept the preeminence of the 2nd Amendment, eh?

Couldn't a nuclear arm be construed as the right enumerated in the Constitution to keep and bear arms?

----
The Antidote to neoCon Koolaid: www.dvds4delegates.com

"We really do have...a once in a lifetime opportunity to take the Republican Party back to where it was." -Kent Snyder, 1959-2008

----

"...a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people." -John F. Kennedy

The construction of a

The construction of a nuclear arm in your basement would be a huge eminent threat to your neighbors. I dont think that is covered by the second amendment, or any amendment.

The potential of these

The potential of these discussion threads is enormous. Thanks for posting this. I am here to learn.

clarification

Is this a question about what should be or what actually is?

Actual? You ARE free to develop a nuclear facility small or large; if you have the resources, you can do whatever you want. Like our mothers told us, you just have to pay the consequences, so if you get away with it you might be able to rule the world eventually or you might get punished by those who have bigger guns and more resources. Natural law: the big fish eats the little fish, unless the little fish outsmarts the big fish.

Should be? You shouldn't be free to do anything like that because it's too dangerous, so in the fantasy world of fairness and ethics (blah, blah, blah) you should only have access to energy equal in power to everyone else's.

Sorry, it's a question about

Sorry, it's a question about "should be" from libertarian, constitutional, Ron Paul, etc. viewpoints.

not unless you want a whole lot of problems

Gonna go out on a limb here and say that there's a "law" against that.

As far as a philosophical discussion, I'd have to say that the Constitution does not prohibit it so you should have that right under the Constitution.

Now, do I personally think that people should have the right to develop nuclear weapons freely and without some form of regulation? I'd have to say no. I guess there really should be a Constitutional amendment to provide for this contingency. And while we were at it prohibit the government from building them as well.

----
The Antidote to neoCon Koolaid: www.dvds4delegates.com

"We really do have...a once in a lifetime opportunity to take the Republican Party back to where it was." -Kent Snyder, 1959-2008

----

"...a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people." -John F. Kennedy

No,

and you shouldn't be. It's an unreasonable danger to other people.

The principle, from the standpoint of the type of libertarianism I subscribe to, is that you should be allowed to do what you want as long as you don't harm anyone else or put them in unreasonable danger of being harmed (unless they consent to being subject to that danger)

Thanks for your answer. I'm

Thanks for your answer. I'm just wondering...who or what determines what is "unreasonable"?

I thought you'd ask that.

Who determines are individuals, and their consensus on what is unreasonable danger would make the rule. Yes, you, as, an individual, and maybe a few other individuals, may disagree that it is unreasonable to allow you to do this, and your opinions would be overruled. But that's good, because it's better that a large number of people's interests are not sacrificed to protect the interests of a small minority. This is a case where collective action is necessary to maximize liberty, if one defines liberty as including the liberty to not be exposed to unreasonable danger of being killed by the negligent actions of others.

This strikes at the essence of the value of government. Government should be minimized as much as possible, but it's necessary to have a government in order to enforce a consensus standard of what is reasonable and what is not for things like this. If there is no government, everyone is allowed to make their own judgement on what is unreasonable danger then the society would self destruct.

Lol...I'd thought you'd

Lol...I'd thought you'd answer with that.

So how do we go about doing this from a Constitutional perspective? State level, amendments? In a slightly different senario, what if I was instead developing WMD? What about my right to bear arms?

I'm just newbie libertarian by the way; just trying to iron out some things I think about often.