How should we understand Romans 13?
It is well known that Hitler's favorite scripture to abusively misquote was Romans 13- which speaks of submission to those ruling over you. This is often assumed to mean total obedience to every officer of the law,in every situation. Christians, however, are commanded to be Berean, that is, to search the Scriptures and allow them to interpret themselves. If you look at the book of Acts, you have Peter telling the authorities (in essence) NO we will not stop telling people what we believe, and you cannot make us. You also have Paul (yes, the same person who wrote Romans 13) telling King Agrippa and Festus that , as a Roman citizen, he would not consent to mob rule "justice", he was appealing to Caesar. You may ask: "What does this have to do with me?" If you are a Christian, it means that we have an obligation to "rightly divide the word of truth", and seek to understand the passages in light of the whole of Scripture. IF a government is breaking what it acclaims as the highest law of the land, we have the right to appeal to that law, just as Paul had the right to appeal to Caesar. If you are not a Christian, you have your conscience to bear witness to what is right and wrong. For more on this topic check out these links:
http://www.losthorizons.com/newsarchive.htm (search "Poisonous Pieties")
Followup at http://www.losthorizons.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=530
Your Pastor Has Rule Over You
I asked my pastor straight up....."Will you give up your guns if the government tells you to?"
He said, NO WAY.
We're not riding the train to the gas chambers.
Deb
Deb
Why not ask a candidate?
This one wrote this during his support of Ron Paul in the Republican primaries.
http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/c2007/cbarchive_20070810.html
Great read! I totally agree
Great read! I totally agree with Baldwin's position...
NONE BUT PAUL!
you know, when I read a topic like this
and see the numerous posts, my head just shakes. I would never think for a minute to consult a book to have it make up my mind for me. Especially a book translated from ancient Greek, written by a man who didnt know Jesus, over 50 years after Jesus' death...assuming there was ever a Jesus at all. I see where a person could think that a little free will was in order here.
But we are talking about faith, and that is a much stronger force than logic and reason in any human's constitution...and that means even me. Perhaps I assume that my reason is a better guide to determine the ultimate nature of things...but there is no proof that science or reason provide any better explanation of ultimate reality, in fact most sciences wont even take on the issue at all.
In short, I think people of goodwill try to make important decisions based on their conception of ultimate reality. To be human is to lack perfect knowledge of the nature of that reality, and to rely on faith in one way or another. Religious people are no more "enslaved" than you or I.
The 'Higher Powers': Martial Law vs. Christian Responsibility
This is a well written article by Robert F Hawes jr. and will answer your questions on Romans 13
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig8/hawes4.html
The 'Higher Powers': Martial Law vs. Christian Responsibility
This is a well written article and will answer your questions on Romans 13
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig8/hawes4.html
Wasn't Romans 13
reported to be a passage that the Fed Gov counseled pastors to use, in order to ensure compliance of their congregations in the upcoming days of strife?
I think that it was.
It seems to me that I remember reading, maybe right here on DP, that the Fed Gov contacted many pastors and ministers about this, and many of them consented to use that to keep their congregations submissive to gov't tyranny. Or course, with most churches being tax-exempt 501-C3 corporations, the coercion was implicit.
Maybe some other people here have read that, and may even be able to give a link.
Yes..., HERE'S THE VIDEO NEWS REPORT FROM LOUISIANA !!!
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This is no joke, folks.
The government is brainwashing YOUR pastors to convince the flock to submit to the government if martial law occurs.
They cite Romans 13 as the basis.
Here's the video news report from Shreveport, LA:
The first few words out of the newscaster's mouth are:
The reason I am telling everyone this is because the first second is cut off.
KSLA News - Government to use Pastors to help usher-in martial law - quell dissent
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Patrick
Polk County, Florida
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www.vaclib.org
Yeah...
...that kind of "if you tear the label off of your mattress you are sinning against God" talk is what keeps me out of church. We recently shopped around for churches to attend and thought we had found one that seemed ok until I started hearing some of the parents discussing discipline for their children. They were telling their small children that when they misbehaved, they were sinning against God, it was a widespread part of their doctrine. I couldn't get away from those people quickly enough. Sigh. This all has to be part of the plan...the church is just like an arm of the government in many areas with people being fed the "obey the government or burn in hell" message. Either that, or you are in a megachurch where all that is being taught is the power of positive thinking and the "prosperity message" where apparently God wants all of us to be stinking rich. I guess I missed something while I was growing up in church...in any case, I'm not a church goer anymore, and unlike many believers seeing all of this control being exercised makes me wonder about the truth of any religion. All of this is about control...exercising all tools and options to control as many people as possible.
The Retrocon
Hope for America, Ron Paul for President in 2008!
The Retrocon
Hope for America, Ron Paul for President in 2008!
Here, here
amen brother!
Althought there are few passages I like
For the most part, I do not care for Paul's letters too much. He never met Jesus. I always thought it was odd that Paul got so much NT space, while Peter and John, the ones who knew Jesus personally, got a couple of short epistles. Don't forget, Paul was an ex-Pharisee who I believe was accused of "preaching a different kind of Jesus" (in Acts?).
Amen
He defininately made me dismiss much of the bible. He was one HUGE contradiction. But do'nt try to convince any bible pushing preacher worshiping enthusiastic church goers of that. Well go ahead and try we could all use the prayers. They will pray for you. Hopefully about more than what you do or do not believe in the bible or what you believe it is.
You are right
He was "preaching a different kind of Jesus". Look into the Gnostics and their idolization of Paul. The idea behind the Gnostic Religion was, once you reached a certain level, become "Christ-like" yourself. I have read books about the letters and writings of Paul being a sort of code-book to achieving this status. Could all be baloney - but the Gnostics (also a split called the Nazareans) are pretty fascinating to look into.
www.libertyrestorationproject.org
"We are the inheritors of the American Enlightenment, which tells us that Individual Liberty always trumps collectivism in all forms."
Phillipians
Philippians is my favorite book. How about the love chapter, 1 Corinthians 13? Paul wrote some really good stuff mixed in with some stuff that isn't so good. And, he met Jesus on the Damascus Road. That is why is was an apostle.
Healthnut4freedom
"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct thy paths." Proverbs 3:5,6
Healthnut4freedom
The lip of truth shall be established forever: but a lying tongue is but for a moment...Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are His delight. Prov 12:19,22
What local churchgoers are hearing
Without pretending I'm a Theologian/Apologist Wunderkind (because I am not), I will simply report this experience of mine, which I posted about some weeks ago:
A local church I visited claimed in their sermon that, if you strictly adhere to Rom. 13, then any time you violate any government's directive, you are sinning, because God is responsible for putting all governments' leaders in power.
So if you drive 36mph in a 35mph zone, you are sinning. Against God. And if the local government changes that street's speed limit the following week to 40mph, then you aren't sinning unless you go over that number. So last week, 36mph = sin; this week, 36mph = ticket to heaven still A-OK.
In California, I am allowed to make a right-hand turn on a red light. If I do that, I can still qualify for my entrance through the pearly gates. If I turn right on red in another state, however, I may have to forfeit my halo.
But wait a minute -- if all governments are installed and ordained by God...then, if I turn right on a red light in CA, where it's legally allowed, I'm still breaking the law if we consider the legislation of another (equally ordained) state, aren't I? This thought hit me particularly strong:
If God is responsible for putting all governments' leaders in power, and Country A's leader says one thing, and Country B's leader says another thing which contradicts what Country A's leader says, then who is right; who do you follow to avoid damnation?
These questions did not even occur to the local church's congregation, who heartily "Amen"ed and nodded along in agreement with the pastor's presentation.
I think I did a very good job of refraining from heaving in the pew.
Apparently, this particular church is not the only one to preach this particular message.
/ Yes, I'm a Christian.
// No, this interpretation doesn't make any sense to me.
If God
puts our government in place why do we vote? Is he the one responsible for diebold? Could all be part of his plan. They want us to take the real id (the #) But we are supposed to refuse that. It's all so confusing. Dear Lord what exactly is your will and when am I supposed to exercise my free will and it not be a sin. But then again we are ALL sinners. WE are supposed to be like Christ who was without sin. He died for our sins so we can be forgiven. If we do not sin did he not die in vain?
I'm going to hell for this one for sure.
I hope not,
I struggle with my imperfection every single day- today has been especially hard.
Libera me, let the truth break, what my fears make--Leslie Phillips
But that man should play the tyrant over God, and find Him a better man than himself, is astonishing drama indeed!~~D. Sayers
There is no difference between an authoritarian government from the right or the left...F. A.Schaeffer
I agree with you.
Libera me, let the truth break, what my fears make--Leslie Phillips
But that man should play the tyrant over God, and find Him a better man than himself, is astonishing drama indeed!~~D. Sayers
There is no difference between an authoritarian government from the right or the left...F. A.Schaeffer
Respect to fan, my favorite Christian along with alaskaron.
___________
Lisa C.
Coming Soon: www.RevolutionSingles.com
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Ron Paul "Sign Wave Across the USA" -- November 5th!
Evil.
doesn't take a holiday trip to Cancun to forget the deeds. Nor do they take a holiday to forget they are being evil. Nor will they admit what they are doing is wrong.. Sorry that's the best way I can explain Romans 13.
Find out if you have a local militia - http://www.uaff.us/
Real Patriots for 9/11 truth -- http://patriotsquestion911.com/
Romans 13=Submit to the Constitution!
In our case, our politicians swear to uphold and defend the Constitution...that's what we/they should submit to.
Musician, Blimpographer...Hear my music: www.myspace.com/americanpirates
Just launched http://iroots.org/
Activism Training.
take it in context of all Scripture...
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Acts 5:27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them,
Act 5:28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.
Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
Act 5:33 When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them.
2Chronicles 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
</b>
I think the damn thing is broken.
___________
Lisa C.
Coming Soon: www.RevolutionSingles.com
Tell us what your perfect singles site would look like!
Email and give us your ideas -- RevolutionSingles@me.com
Ron Paul "Sign Wave Across the USA" -- November 5th!
LOL...drive by.
I have attached a Golden Fema Ticket for those of you who vote for McCain.
__________________________
http://i537.photobucket.com/albums/ff338/Bluemoon_Peg/FEMA_G...
I wish Jesus had finished his HTML course.
___________
Lisa C.
Coming Soon: www.RevolutionSingles.com
Tell us what your perfect singles site would look like!
Email and give us your ideas -- RevolutionSingles@me.com
Ron Paul "Sign Wave Across the USA" -- November 5th!
My Take
My take on this passage is a little different from Chuck Baldwin's, though I do not necessarily disagree with him.
I think you need to look a bit at the context of the passage:
I believe that the point that Paul is trying to make here is that we should not oppose government simply for opposing sake. In other words, it is tempting to say that simply because a government is evil or corrupt, we should not follow any of its laws. For example, we could say that we should no longer pay any taxes to our corrupt government because they will misspend it, or we could say we will resist policemen at every turn, etc. This would be wrong.
It is important also to remember the historical context. It was very popular among the Jews at that time to reject all Roman authority. They constantly chaffed under Roman rule, and there were frequent uprisings. Paul was reminding them that the Romans were actually there to provide protection -- and this was true. Pax Romana created a very haven for trade and safe travel across the known world which actually aided the spread of the gospel, despite the persecutions of the church. While certainly Paul didn't follow all of the Roman laws, the only ones that he broke were those that ran in opposition to God's law.
In the same way, most of the laws of our government are there for our good. If we are to break these laws (by speeding, ignoring property rights, etc.), we will bring judgment upon ourselves -- at rightfully so. Those laws are there for our protection.
If we are to break the law, it should be because that law is in opposition to God's law which is higher and takes precedence. This does not mean that we do not speak out against our government, but that we are generally law abiding citizens that choose our battles wisely and on Biblical grounds.
Chuck Baldwin has the
Chuck Baldwin has the correct take on romans 13!
I am more concerned about the return of my money than the return on my money. --Mark Twain
“A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on, and are punished.” (Prov. 22:3; 27:12 KJV)
Hey McCain-----┌П┐(◣_◢)┌П┐
Here is one of my favorite passages ...
Here is one of my favorite passages on standing up for those who are weak and unable defend themselves.
Isaiah 58
[6] Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?
[7] Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?
[8] Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward.
[9] Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity;
[10] And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday:
[11] And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.
Pauls opinions
to me are not Gods. The bible is not the end all to being a christain. Man wrote it and interpreted it for many many years. The stories were passed down by word of mouth for many years before being written by man. Man is incapable of keeping his thoughts and opinions out of things. Christains tell you all the time to read this book and that book about certain parts of the bible. Is'nt that kind of like adding to it? The bible itself says not to do that. Paul was a big flip flopper. Faith is all you have. The rules are in your heart. Faith cannot be taught or learned. You can interpret the bible diferently from one day to the next. Anyone who let's another tell them what it means is a fool. Who truly has the right to say they have complete understanding and should guide others to Gods meaning in the course of events.
Romans also has that great stuff about God hating Esau and loving Jacob before they were even born. The comparison of the potter making one pot for flowers and the other for garbage. Is that fair? Well is it? kinda blows the whole free will thing does'nt it? Do you have a book to fix that too? Are we the pot our government get's to throw their garbage in? Sorry Paul really pisses me off. I do'nt feel he speaks of my God. To me Jesus was God in human form who came to earth and walked a mile in our shoes and that is why he forgives us. I do'nt take a title or a denomination. Been there done that and found as much evil and misguided ignorance than in politics.
If you really want a good
If you really want a good read on Romans 13, please take time on this one. It's by none other than Chuck Baldwin an excellent teacher and writer. I refer back to this one often and forward to others. It's not extremely long but I thought maybe too much to post entire thing here.
*********
It seems that every time someone such as myself attempts to encourage our Christian brothers and sisters to resist an unconstitutional or otherwise reprehensible government policy, we hear the retort, "What about Romans Chapter 13? We Christians must submit to government. Any government. Read your Bible, and leave me alone." Or words to that effect.
No doubt, some who use this argument are sincere. They are only repeating what they have heard their pastor and other religious leaders say. On the other hand, let's be honest enough to admit that some who use this argument are just plain lazy, apathetic, and indifferent. And Romans 13 is their escape from responsibility. I suspect this is the much larger group, by the way....
more.....
http://www.newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin389.htm
Trust in God, but tie your camel tight.
"Socialism needs two legs on which to stand; a right and a left. While appearing to be in complete opposition to one another,they both march in the same direction." - Paul Proctor
Romans 13
speaks about submission within the church ranks. The other part of that book refers to keeping the laws of the land so as there would be law and order and saftey for everyone.
As far as being submissive to those who rule over you, well think about this......it is "We The People" who are the rulers and the "Elected Officials" ( all of them ) are our servants and it is THEY who are to OBEY US and be submissive to US and the constitution to which they swore in an oath unto Almighty God! They have over and over again violated their oath!
Contract is ended!
Got it?
That is the truth of that chapter in a nutshell.
Fear God and not man, and always love one another and DO WHAT IS RIGHT
" In Thee O Lord do I put my trust " ~ Psalm 31:1~
" In Thee O Lord do I put my trust " ~ Psalm 31:1~