Fear of the Collective
I've noticed all too much around here that when people talk about working together in groups to problem solve, you get called a "collectivist"! I've posted a lot of stuff on here talking about amazing, dynamic processes in which people can come together in groups to create solutions to problems(Such as economic fallout) that can work on the familial, community, and national level and yet, people call it collectivism and communism and say there's no room for the individual!
Couldn't be further from the truth!
The problem I'm addressing here is that people have this notion that the Individual will fix all, probably residue from Ayn Rand books. The Individual is the answer. . .BUT they are missing a BIG part of the equation and that is the GROUP! Stay with me here, I've got a point.
For millenia, mankind has evolved in a group setting. Cut to modern day and we have a more divided society, but one that has allowed us to realize that there truly is power in the individual and that it needs to be respected. So, through our own evolution we have utilized the power of the group, and now have come to a point where we see that the Individual holds enormous power for creativity and so must be protected from "group think" and "collectivism". I'm with you on this one so far.
What people are failing to see is that there still is power, and a need, to work together in groups in order to solve our problems! Only now, at this point in our evolution, we have the notion of the individual to counterbalance the group mentality that has produced such horrible things in history as Communism and Fascism and such. I'm being over simple here but it's early and I dont' plan to spend too much time on this "steam blowing".
What is necessary now is for us to utilize the group problem-solving format in a way that protects and upholds the individual. But are you all ready for that!?!? Could you handle processes that utilize the coming together of individuals in a group setting that produces results that are desirable by all individuals present!?!?
What if I told you that the entire Ron Paul campaign has been a show in Collective Intelligence? Would you disagree? Would you be shocked? Do you know what Collective Intelligence is and why it is shaping our future?
You see, there are two kinds of collective realities: One in which the "collective" is controlled from the top-down, as in the New World Order scenarios envisioned by many here. The other is a bottom-up "collective" in which all parts of the system are integral and important and feedback occurs at all levels that informs the whole and so whatever comes of this "collective" is the product of all individual inputs! But, I suppose that's a bad thing, right?
I'm posting this mainly because I've read some of the comments on here regarding the Zeitgeist Addendum and while I haven't watched that movie yet, I do know that it features the work of Jacque Fresco and I can say for sure that his work is in NO WAY a "Collectivist Utopia" in which the Individual is not respected!!! Watch his documentary, Designing the Future, and he mentions many times that whatever future emerges the Individual must be respected and he talks about just what I said above about a collective "mind" which is comprised of the input of all individual persons adding their piece to the pile. He presents his ideas as only possibilities, so do look further than the whole robots thing. . .
So to sum this up, I think way too many people in this movement suffer from a closed mind to new ideas which just turns this movement into another idealogy with its own closed set of values and that is a precarious position for a movement that purports to carry the truth and the way for our country! I think we need to all realize how vital it is that we work together to utilize the intelligence of everyone in order to come up with solutions to our vast problems! While the Individual can be intelligent beyond comprehension, they still only hold a few pieces of the whole puzzle, and so the more pieces we can put together then the more clearer view of the "big picture" we all get to see and so can then base our decisions on that instead of just our little viewpoints that very often are just inaccurate or misguided!
I'm glad that we don't have to re-invent the wheel in this regard and will point you into the direction of some things that many here may bristle at as being "collectivist" but if given a fair shake you will see that it is anything but that and in fact makes more room for the individual in society, and less room for over-arching governmental structures:
Co-Intelligence
Collective Intelligence
Citizens Deliberative Councils
Wisdom Councils
World Cafe Process
Dutch Technology Panels
Open Source Intelligence
Buckminster Fuller
Jacque Fresco
Tom Atlee
Robert David Steele
I'm no collectivist in the traditional use of the term a la G Edward Griffin. I know that there is no thing more important to protect than the individual. I know that the individual alone is not enough to advance our species and create solutions to our enormous problems. I have found ways to utilize all of our individual intelligences to work together to create a world more desirable by all. I hope you can see this vision too.
Listen To This.
My new show, the Next Step podcast, deals with some of these issues mentioned above.
http://thenextstep.podomatic.com
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Host, The Next Step Podcast
http://thenextstep.podomatic.com
this is precisely why the nwo kicks our @sses.
LOVE YOUR POST!!! there are not very many people that compose the nwo but they totally OWN us. their key... they work in groups.
committee of 300
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/esp_sociopol...
Anyone who wants to get
Anyone who wants to get things done as far as influencing society is concerned works in groups. Tink a 'bowt it, mon!
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Host, The Next Step Podcast
http://thenextstep.podomatic.com
Herding cats
is hard work!
New Hampshire and Ecuador
Resistance is futile
.
It is true that if we do not
It is true that if we do not Collectively protect our Individuality, we WILL collectively lose our Individuality to the Collectivist.
As one of the Founders put it, "we must all stick together, or we will surely all hang seperately".
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"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" Bugs Bunny
"Scwewy Wabbit!" Elmer Fudd
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"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" B.Bunny "Scwewy Wabbit!"E. Fudd
People's Awareness Coalition: Deprogramming Sequence
Individual vs Common Goals
This is simple when we know God created the individual while individuals create the group. (The word 'collective' is repugnant to me and many others.) Society prospers when the individual is recognized and honored as superior to any group he/she may be a part. These ones can come together voluntarily to serve a common ideal or aspiration such as building a school for their children or raising a barn for their neighbors. This rugged individualism built America.
The nastiness comes in when an individual is taught he/she is nothing but an accident of nature and a near valueless member of a collective or a team. Military groups, sport groups and school groups use uniforms and "politically correct" behaviorisms to homogenize out individualism. This has become the norm in our schools now so "rugged individualism" is but a faint memory. More nastiness develops when a bully psychopath either leads or induces submissive (weak willed) people to their destruction or forces others into aberrant behavior patterns because these people have a poor sense (if any) of their self-worth (individualism).
Hey I kinda like the thought I was
Spontaneous.. Means my parents truly loved each other.
Find out if you have a local militia - http://www.uaff.us/
Real Patriots for 9/11 truth -- http://patriotsquestion911.com/
Okay, but what does this
Okay, but what does this have to do with my post? I'm saying that a collective is not the ultimate goal, but rather that we do have the capacity as individuals to work collectively and when we do we can accomplish more in many ways that we can by ourselves!
Look at the internet for an example of a collective created by individuals!
Collective is repugnant to you only because you understand one aspect of the word, it is neutral and can imply good and bad.
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Host, The Next Step Podcast
http://thenextstep.podomatic.com
I do agree with you
on the concept that people cooperating and working towards a single goal can do much more than individuals working alone. If that is what they all wish to do. Do you have a specific goal you'd like to see people get behind an effort to accomplish?
Something I'd like to add to my earlier post on this has to do with 'conformity'. People are being pressured to be conformist, to conform to the politically correct or their peer pressure or go along to get along. Children are brain-washed in schools to be conformists in such a way that conformity is taught as a virtue when it is in actuality a vice and a mental sickness. Lack of will and self determination is a psychosis. Conformity to rules, regulations and laws in lieu of common sense is tyranny in practice. And this has become the collective mind set.
Yeah, it's a hard one
Yeah, it's a hard one because you have to educate your children, and if homeschooling is not an option than you're forced to go to public schools. It's nice because the socialization that takes place will at least allow the child to have the capacity to effectively communicate with their generation, on the other hand there is a big push towards non-thinking group think and that's very bad. There's no easy answer there, I have two children that are coming to schooling age and so it weighs on me heavily!
I posted this article to help get people over their immediate, indoctrinated notion of what a collective is and can be used for. I'm not advocating for some over-riding collectivist system be put in place, far from that actually. But I'm introducing the notion that collective practices can be utilized by individuals to great effect. There is a whole study around the notion of collective intelligence and if this group were to really take the findings of collective intelligence seriously than we'd be a force to reckon with. Some of the most powerful processes I have discovered for finding the wisdom of our people come with the loaded term "collective" which deters most people on here away! It's unfortunate and so I'm working to broaden people's perspective on this topic as it seems that the use of the word collective(and all thoughts attached to it) have become dogmas that reduce the problem solving abilities of our movement.
As much as I enjoy and have been inspired by the work of G Edward Griffin he never once distinguishes between an elitist, top-down collective system(NWO) and one that is non-hierarchical, bottom-up, and powered/configured/evolved SOLELY by the individuals who partake! And that is unfortunate as he is a very influential figure in this movement, and many don't realize that his hard-line approach actually helped to create a sort of dogmatic reaction in the people here.
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Host, The Next Step Podcast
http://thenextstep.podomatic.com
My perspective on Ayn Rand
Ayn Rand is misunderstood by many people. Now, you may not agree with me, but Ayn Rand, one of my personal heros, stood for artists. Artists are people born with talent. ALL people are capital. Many people are born into this world and they are willing slaves. It's more than fine. If everyone wears blue jeans, hey, they like blue jeans! Go bluejeans and how dare the SOB that didn't have the respect, decency, compassion, patriotism, you name it... how dare YOU be different? Who the hell do you think you are? If you are an artist, you become a SLAVE because the collective has a group mentality to destroy your individuality. You must find protection. Today artists have attorneys, managers, assistants, accountants, body guards, insurance and must network playing into the hands of the 4 major media outlets to make any money, which... many times they end up losing because of con artists. You can make a scientist, you can not make an artist. Not a real artist. You might like the Medici's, enslave an artist and fund him with the world to make a Michelangeo, but it is the freedom of DaVinci, the one who dared to dream and make it reality, this is the struggle the indiviual artist faces and the collective could care less. DaVince was destroyed by the public "Church", yet today people continue to capitalize on his work, while the church, a collective, owns Michelango.
There is a popular YouTube by a Britney Spears fan crying, "Leave Britney Alone" Chris Croaker. This is a great example of what I am saying about what the collective does to an artist, the individual, how others capitalize on it.
Collectives are human nature, like the Orsen Well movie "Animal Farm", yes, we need each other, but ultimately, the life you live is yours, even if you have no talent, and so pick your collective wisely, hopefully with talented people who don't need to capitalize on you to be artists, and appreciate your talent, no matter how small.
WE ARE GOING TO WIN!
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.' ( ) '.
) /)' '( )
',_( ';-;'\_,'
|-|
(")
There's a difference between
There's a difference between control-collectives and free-collectives. . .
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Host, The Next Step Podcast
http://thenextstep.podomatic.com
Sorry, I reject Fabian-Marxism...
...and techno-religious utopias. I'll stick with Ron Paul's Campaign for Liberty, if you don't mind.
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Support The Feal Good Foundation. Watch "Dust to Dust" and "Dust to Deceit" to learn about the ongoing 9/11 Holocaust of dying 9/11 First Responders.
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"...a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people." -John F. Kennedy
Ron Paul's campaign has been
Ron Paul's campaign has been a show in collective intelligence, in case you didn't know. We have all worked as individuals, collectively, to accomplish whatever goals we could. Had we more viable organization and prior experience, we would have taken this thing even farther than we did, which we did an amazing job anyways considering the obstacles.
It's easy to throw around terms like Fabian-Marxist and still have no idea what I'm talking about! If you actually looked into what I'm discussion you'll see it's not some Fabian-Marxist pipedream. . .or maybe you wont.
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Host, The Next Step Podcast
http://thenextstep.podomatic.com
GET IT factor
I thought you people believe in sepratism , individualism ,REPUBLIC..??
weee
COMMON SENSE, use it
THE collective will be your DEMACRATS if they control every branch of GOV'T ...WAKE UP ...COLLECTIVE mean: CONCENTRATE as in ONE......One world GOV'T...as in NWO
weee
yeah, that's one way of
yeah, that's one way of looking at it.
again, the fear of the collective is everywhere on these boards!
Collective by itself is neutral, its what the collective's goals and methods are that is the question. Ron Paul's campaing showed what can be done "collectively" by individuals who truly believed in their candidate. Each meetup group was a type of collective that worked to achieve it's own goals.
What I'm introducing is the notion that collective actions are not inherently bad, but yes, top-down, pyramidal, hierarchical collectives ARE bad and very bad at that!
I'm well versed in notions of the NWO and so it is with that in mind that I still am able to post about this notion I'm presenting. There are tools to be used if only we should choose to wield them.
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Host, The Next Step Podcast
http://thenextstep.podomatic.com
I am an individualist. In
I am an individualist. In the sense that I believe that there is no greater entity in the world other than the individual. Groups are composed solely of individuals, so to me it doesn't make sense that a group could have greater rights than an individual has.
I also believe in the freedom to associate. We can form any group we wish and come to any kind of social arrangement(yes even communism... I'd never be a part of it but if others wish to...). The only condition for me is that all parties in these arrangements voluntarily agreed to be a part of them.
What I'm saying: I'm fine with voluntary collectivism as long as you don't force me or anyone else to join. By making all interactions between humans voluntary, the best kinds of social interaction(i.e market based transactions) will tend to manifest themselves.
"My theories explain, but cannot slow the decline of a great civilization. I set out to be a reformer, but only became the historian of decline."
- Ludwig Von Mises
"My theories explain, but cannot slow the decline of a great civilization. I set out to be a reformer, but only became the historian of decline."
- Ludwig Von Mises
Great Thought Provoking Post
I think the KEY in the equation that makes the difference between cooperation and collectivism is POWER and CONTROL. As long as each member of the group is in full agreement that at no point can anyone utilize FORCE on any other, and all cooperation is totally voluntary, based upon each individual's desire to gain a benefit from the cooperation, I think you are on the right track.
This forum would be an example. We all are here as individuals who voluntarily come to share ideas and hopefully GAIN knowledge and useful ideas. Where we ALWAYS run into trouble is if anyone suggests that anyone else should be FORCED into submission on any issue. The collective always must be 100% voluntary, with each member deciding on his OWN that he/she garners a benefit from joining the group.
GRACIAS Sancho
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6pAcBXt2j8
"Not armies, not nations, have advanced the race; but here and there, in the course of ages, an individual has stood up and cast his shadow over the world."
Thomas Jefferson: “Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever."
Viva La Revolucion!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmaTNf4YhEs
Yes that is what I'm talking
Yes that is what I'm talking about here, a self-selected collective that is bottom-up with no centralized control structures. This CAN work!
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Host, The Next Step Podcast
http://thenextstep.podomatic.com
Hmm?
Hmm?
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Host, The Next Step Podcast
http://thenextstep.podomatic.com
What?
What?
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Host, The Next Step Podcast
http://thenextstep.podomatic.com
No problem
The problem is not individuals working collectively. The problem is when you have the government forcing people with differing opinions to work together.
Socialism is a lie, it is an invention by elitists to take money from the population to support their goals.
We live in a socialist country, since there is no difference between the government owning everything from a government that regulates everything and collects taxes on our labor and property.
We stlll need to wake up a lot of people to this fact..
grant
I deleted many of my posts
I deleted many of my posts regarding this material in anger, but even the ones that are left I think still contain a lot of vitriolic comments by people defending their individualism from these ideas. . .So I get what you're saying totally, we're on the same page there, but my point here is that too many people in this movement are afraid of new ideas that contain notions of collective action because their notion of what a collectivity is or could be is skewed. . .
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Host, The Next Step Podcast
http://thenextstep.podomatic.com
either direction ?
SIR ; while I agree with your pretext ,Collective can be intelligence & collective STUPIDITY...ENTER> the individual
weee
Oh yeah, a perfect example
Oh yeah, a perfect example of co-stupidity is the current Wall Street crisis! So yeah, I forgot to mention that point, but I did mention co-intelligence. . .which is reliant upon the individual working in the group.
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Host, The Next Step Podcast
http://thenextstep.podomatic.com
Here's the problem:Money
Or some incentive that you're going to get more than someone else. What happens in all the other collectivist governments (communism, socialism, fascism, etc.) is a small amount of people rule from the top because they're the most deceitful. They bribe, blackmail or pay assassins to eliminate their competition.
I don't think there's ever been a society without a medium of exchange and that's what people fear most-CHANGE. Obama keeps on saying it, but that's easy change-substitute a black, corrupt guy for a white, corrupt guy.
Asking people to give up their right to loaf on their neighbor's dime is a CHANGE (capital letters), but it's a change we all need. Once people realize corporate welfare dwarfs poverty welfare maybe they can start working together rather then against each other.
http://killfiat.blogspot.com/
Money is only one part of
Money is only one part of this whole thing, albeit a large part. There are other methods of exchange that could be used in conjunction with money.
What I'm talking about is the closed minded stance so many people have here that disallows them to experience new forms of thinking and processes of action that could potentially take this movement to the next level of evolution. . .
We need to evolve a new way of being in society that is driven by the individual, but that still allows us to work together in groups as there is no way to avoid that scenario without devolving into some Mad Max situation where it's every man for themselves! That is the end result of Individualism unchecked by "collective" apparatus, but Fascism, Communism, etc is the end result of "collectivism" unchecked by Individualism!
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Host, The Next Step Podcast
http://thenextstep.podomatic.com
Well, you gotta start somewhere
getting rid of money and its entanglements is a start. Before you do that, though, you gotta get rid of the FED and people have got to start to live within their means again. What I forsee this means-at least for one generation today there will be more than two generations living in a house , pooling of resources and less travel outside of the house.
http://killfiat.blogspot.com/