http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8415234479872701693...
Milton Friedman with a beautiful refutation of the philosophy of socialism. This is a must watch video!
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Another Green Football
The classic phony libertarian: "Don't complain about what people do". I've read other Naomi Klein articles where she baits and switches. In one fell swoop she dismisses Leo Strauss and invokes Friedman as the culprit. She gives no explanation for discounting Strauss and tries rebuild the thoroughly discredited left-right dichotomy using Friedman as a scapegoat.
Would someone explain why then did the imperially benevolent Federal Reserve Chair Bernanke apologize for the Great Depression?
Leo Strauss is the father of modern neo-former-left-conism
If some of you don't understand the fundamental fact that Rummy and PNAC are failed leftists (a bunch of whiny cheerleaders who never understood what the left or the right were about) you have little credibility here.
Get your head out of the tube. Read.
Yes as stated below more research.
This Government is currently going thru the change, thats why you guys are all here. Yes chile is a prime example. The system does not work, and when it is in power, war against one self is the only way to purge it or massive uprising. HR1955 is one of the last steps in the process. Thats why there is a fear about a second accident or attack to justify a police state.
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote."
Three Cheers For M. Friedman!
Thank you for posting this, Toban!
Wow! Mr. Friedman explains libertarianism (classical liberalism) so well!
Imagine world prosperity and a much greater liklihood of world peace -- it is achieved through large-scale understanding and implementation of this philosophy.
How naïve are you?
I find it hard to believe all of you can deal with the cognitive dissonance created by your hatred of the illegal war and occupation in Iraq and your praise for Milton Freidman?
Milton Freidman posthumously brought us the Iraq debacle via his acolytes Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and the rest of the NeoCon cabal. Yes, they were his students and Iraq was the perfect laboratory for laissez-faire capitalism. It turned into a nightmare because utopia is not achievable on earth—especially administered by brutal ideologues like Bush and the NeoCons.
Almost everything written or produced on Milton Freidman is carefully choreographed NeoCon propaganda. But don’t listen to what they say look at what they do and what they have done in the name of “Free Markets”. Do yourselves a favor and read Naomi Kein’s book “The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism.”
I dare you. It will expose a huge hole in your ideology that you are, it seems, completely blind to.
I would like to see Libertarians grapple with these “other truths” rather than just retreat to the comforts of utopianism. If you actually do that you may build a philosophically and morally sound movement.
But I am beginning to wonder, just how naïve is the Ron Paul movement?
Friedman posthumously brought us into Iraq through his acolytes?
Here's what Friedman had to say regarding the Iraq war:
"What's really killed the Republican Party isn't spending, it's Iraq. As it happens, I was opposed to going into Iraq from the beginning. I think it was a mistake, for the simple reason that I do not believe the United States of America ought to be involved in aggression."
From: http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=1100...
Regarding those he influenced...
Why is Friedman to blame if some people that were influenced by his ideas went and did something that was in opposition to the philosophy that he actually taught?
naivete
Freidman's Phliosophy is the Antithesis of these Neocons'. His Philosophy has been hijacked and desecrated by these assholes. They Failed to Force capitalism into Central America just as they are Failing to Force Democracy into Iraq but do not attribute the Actions of these Evil men to the Ideas of Freidman. They Fail because you cannot lead by Force, only by Example. Laissez-faire Capitalism means just that: "Hands off!" The government is not to involve itself in the affairs of the market. Forcing "Free-Markets" is an oxy-moron. The NeoCons are to Ron Paul just as the NeoCons are to Friedman: Polar Opposites. Watch the video before you Judge it, eh?
This guy's a jackass.
This guy's a jackass.
Really?
I ask you to read a book and you call me a jackass. Hmmmm.
Leo Strauss is the father of modern neo-former-left-conism
Not Friedman. Try again.
I think Klein's thesis might be flawed
I haven't read the book, but from what I've heard Klein attacks the free-market. However, is there really enough freedom of choice in the US marketplace to call it "free"?
'We do not have a free market when it comes to the money supply. And since the money permeates the entire market, it isn't much of a leap to conclude that we don't have a free market of any kind at all." - Michael Nystrom
The Shock Doctrine
attacks Corporatism. Big difference between Corporatism and Capitalism. The problem is not the free markets. The problem is big business in bed with big government.
Exactly.
But why do all of you think it will easy to maintain a democracy with even less governmental control over enormous pools of self-interested global capital? Ron Paul is being marginalized by those very powerful interest groups, as we speak.
Ron Paul would seriously cut back spending in the burgeoning federal military-industrial complex thereby reducing the danger of an economic system based on destruction, killing and war profits. That would probably make a “more free market” less threatening to democracy. But don’t expect the most profitable businesses in America (and Dubai?) to roll over and let him do it.
Read the last chapter.
Klein is actually advocating what libertarians claim to believe—that people left to their own way will make a life for themselves and a healthy free market. They are little people who do amazing things with almost nothing when they have liberty and property.
Now, the Geen Zone is not the city of OZ. It is a militarized island in a state of total social and economic breakdown. It is the product of Milton Freidman and the shock doctrine—remember shock and awe? Freidman’s convenient denials sound like the rest of the NeoCons denial of culpability in the wake of the Iraq debacle. You see, a utopian can always say “this in not what I envisioned.” But it is what their naïve idealism-- their utopianism--created. And it is bad.
The global corporatocracy, the World Bank, the WTO are part of the machine that ploughs the little people under like so much chaff. Freidman’ s capitalism requires brutality to be put into place and in the end it will generate more communists not less. There will be more suffering as poor people loose their right to own property, trade, build, and better themselves.
So how do libertarian defend your own principles and the rights of individuals to self-determination and property? Or is yours a selective libertarianism like Bush’s selective democracy? If libertarians truly believe in “liberty and justice for all” then you need to come to terms with this simple truth and formulate a realistic approach to prevent its perpetuation.
Friedman's capitalism requires brutality to be put into place ?
You are misrepresenting his philosophy--here's a quote from Friedman's book Capitalism and Freedom:
"Fundamentally, there are only two ways of coordinating the economic activities of millions. One is central direction involving the use of coercion - the technique of the army and of the modern totalitarian state. The other is voluntary cooperation of individuals - the technique of the marketplace."
False dichotomy
That quote offers a false dichotomy. The businesses Freidman embraced were in fact multi-nationals not the grocery next door. They are top down structures and they often don't respect the democratic processes if the results are not in their interest. They may also become a kind of quasi-government that is totalitarian in nature. What about the Chile experiment was voluntary?
This truth about Freidman’s M.O. “shock therapy” is missing in that quote and is why I call him a utopian and apparently a deceiver. In fact his attitudes about democracy, sovereignty and imperialism are antithetical to recent statements by Dr. Paul if I heard him correctly.
In that quote Freidman is offering a false state of perfection. Does he know it? I don’t know. Based on his history of works, he is either a deceiver or a self-deceiver. It is the utopian's way never to look down.
Utopian? I thought Friedman was a pragmaticist
I read the quote that atrickpay posted... I didn't see anything to do with perfection. He just pointed out that it's better off voluntary. Also, I like Friedman but think that he wasn't idealistic enough to get to the level of someone like Rothbard. But this is probably because he wanted to be pragmatic and get something done.
Chilean experiment
Unfortunately I do not do not know much about it. If it was in fact involuntary and put into place with force like you're implying, then it was anti-thetical to Friedman's philosophy.
And regarding the "false state of perfection," where in that quote that I cited is a "state of perfection" ever implied?
It was involuntary.
It was put into place by force when Augusto Pinochet’s troops killed Salvador Allende. The CIA participated and the “Chicago Boys” wrote the manual on how to impose a “free market” economy. Freidman claimed innocence for the brutality of the Pinochet regime but he was up to his eyeballs in the experiment.
The coup removed a democratically elected government, killed the socialist president, tortured and killed thousands of Chileans, privatized most of the nations natural resources and left an economic system bifurcated into extreme wealth and poverty.
But it really makes no difference whether the government being overthrown was socialist or capitalist, the will of the people must be respected as a first principle in any democracy.
The communists committed similar crimes in their own time. The corporatists do the same today. There is no real difference and they are both anti-democratic and destructive. I think any true libertarian would agree with this.
Also:
I call Freidman a utopian because he offers a model of economics that is perfectly logical at the scale of a small community. The economics of a small town are absolutely consistent with what he describes in that previous quote. The problem is that the model he offers depends on transparency and personal morality and it does not scale-up without making naïve assumptions about the good intentions of global corporations and their proxy states.
At its worst, Freidman’s economics enables and encourages government and corporate behavior like that in the Chile in the ‘70s. So as I said before, it is either dangerously naive or deliberately misleading. I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and call him a utopian.
Re: Friedman's involvement
Anothergreenbus: you wrote that "Friedman claimed innocence for the brutality of the Pinochet regime but he was up to his eyeballs in the experiment." Are you implying that he was involved with the CIA's coup?
What happened in Chile was coordinated in the US.
The Chicago Boys were students of Freidman at the University of Chicago and delivered the “plan” immediately after the coup took place. Naomi Klein documents this in her book “The Shock Doctrine”. The “shock” approach has been employed a number of times, most recently in Iraq. Freidman expectably distanced himself from Pinochet but was happy to take credit for the “miracle in Chile” that has left it with one of the most economically polarized countries in the world and a permanent impoverished underclass.
I believe in capitalism but I also believe in democracy. The people should decide what form their government takes and what kind of economy they want, and when to change it.
Wik: The Chicago Boys (c. 1970s) [1] were a group of about 25 young Chilean economists who trained at the University of Chicago under Milton Friedman and Arnold Harberger. They later worked in Augusto Pinochet's administration to create a free market economy and decentralize the economy.
Back it up
You hate corporations, plain and simple, and it feeds your conspiracy. Show us something Friedman said that is antithetical to the opening paragraph of your post. I have his books.. tell me what page to turn to.
- JP
The first 5 million supporters of Dr. Paul are 'early adopters.' The next 10 million will require a modified approach.
I will
Actually, I don’t hate corporations in general. I own a small corporation and some of the big ones are wonderful—amazing in fact. I do hate the ones that destroy liberty and justice. Sometime we should talk about how morality plays a role in corporate governance.
But, I have to sleep. I will get you your quotes when I get back to my books after a long drive tomorrow. You should take a look at Naomi Klein's book. Tear it appart. I would like to hear your thoughts.
Good night.
Can't resist
Mind enlightening me as to what the last few philosophically and morally sound movements that succeeded were and what your basis of morally sound is?
It's a legitimate question, as moralistic judgements are completely subjective to the poster.
Thanks!
-James
Sure
The ideas and philosophy behind the American experiment come to mind. With all its flaws America has been a beacon to the world—until recently. The Founding Fathers were idealistic but not utopian. They were enlightened about human nature in both its strengths and weaknesses. They were extremely pragmatic too.
So take this as statement against the triumph of any single ideology, left or right or whatever. Through representative government the Founding Fathers gave us the tools to rise above the constraints of overly simplistic and transitory ideas. We have a creative form of government that can adapt to change while hewing to the principle of individual rights. It’s a balancing act of beautiful pragmatism—that Constitution and Bill of Rights.
It’s ours if we can keep it.
The War Against Democracy
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8028007074233952313&...
enlightening
Someone with influence gets it.
But that man should play the tyrant over God, and find Him a better man than himself, is astonishing drama indeed!~~D. Sayers
There is no difference between an authoritarian government from the right or the left...F. A.Schaeffer
A must watch video indeed.
A must watch video indeed. I heartily recommend it to anyone who cares about the role of govt, and socialistic ideas in general..
Weekend Watching
I updated the title to get this some more views over the weekend. A great video to remind people why the free market is the best solution, and of the urgency of the situation.