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For advocates of closed borders

How can one hold such a position and consider one's self an advocate of 'liberty?' These people were born on a different plot of land from the one you were, and they are somehow magically lesser than you or I? Nonsense! If you don't want a cheap home built with cheap labor, fine! Don't buy one like that! But who are YOU to tell me I can't make that choice, because these people are 'illegal?' How is a person 'illegal?' And to those who say that 'illegals' threaten 'our sovereignty'; Excuse me, sir, I am soveriegn, you are sovereign, the idea that a corporation (which is what the US Government is) could be a soveriegn is not only logically inconsistent, but flies in the face of what this government was founded on. Look at your Constitution and see what it says about immigration. Probably about as much as it says about the federal government having the right to control what SOVEREIGNS put into their bodies, or where and in what manner SOVEREIGNS travel, or in what particular spot SOVEREIGNS are standing when they protest the overarching madness that is this country nowadays. Believe me, you are either for freedom, or you aren't. The 'brown people' deserve the same freedoms you have, for the same reason that you do, because they are men like we are. Not because they were born in a particular spot or have a certain color of skin or a certain amount of money. Government institutions and restrictions operate outside the market. If such an institution (gov school or bureaucracy or a governmentally protected labor union) keeps the cost of a commodity (in this case, labor) too high, then the problem will spread to other areas of the market. The correct market signals will not be given and price distortions will result. Anyone who feels that they have a right to their high paying job, even when the market cannot sustain such activity, and uses the force of government to keep their position and their inflated pay, is ENSLAVING me. OK?? I find this whole 'borders' thing to be so disgustingly bigoted.

Thanks

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FREE THEM

Ramos and Compean

I have been keeping up with this story...This is what lead me to listen to Ron Paul and his message...These men and what they did are a part of why we need to watch the boarders.

Freedom is another way to God...A corrupt government is a straight way to hell.

I believe in Hope & Change..I Hope the government will Change
Spindale-Rutherford County-North Carolina

reedr3v's picture

wonderful clear analysis, elviejo;

I appreciate your fair, positive approach.

Oh hey, I forgot about the part

where in this little book of rules for the government called the Constitution of the united States of America, they say that Congress shall establish a universal rule of NATURALIZATION. It doesn't say a damn thing about IMMIGRATION, which means that it is a power reserved to the states or to the people. The national immigration bureaucracy should be shut down immediately because it is unconstitutional.

'Live for yourself, there's no one else more worth living for,
Begging hands and bleeding hearts
Will only cry out for more...'

'Live for yourself, there's no one else more worth living for,
Begging hands and bleeding hearts
Will only cry out for more...'

I've seen a few comments now

about how the government has 'let the immigration problem get out of control' or some such. I can see why one would think this, given the deluge of propoganda fed to us on this issue.

What I am going to reiterate here is that we don't have an immigration problem. We have a government problem. The tyrants in Washington who know soooo much better than we do how to spend our hard earned money, and run our businesses, and conduct affairs in the bedroom, yes, these geniuses have created such an oppressive regulatory environment with their minimum wage laws and their OSHA and their affirmative action and their licences and their permits and all the rest of the crap they pull, that not only are some businesses forced to find 'illegal' labor just so they can continue to function in this country, but many businesses either don't make it or leave or never start. Without this meddling we would have such a huge demand for labor in this country that not only would we be crying out for immigrants to help get it all done, but the price of labor would go up due to the increased demand, and all would prosper.

'Live for yourself, there's no one else more worth living for,
Begging hands and bleeding hearts
Will only cry out for more...'

'Live for yourself, there's no one else more worth living for,
Begging hands and bleeding hearts
Will only cry out for more...'

You are SPOT ON with this... it has ALL been sabotaged

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6pAcBXt2j8
"Not armies, not nations, have advanced the race; but here and there, in the course of ages, an individual has stood up and cast his shadow over the world."

Thomas Jefferson: “Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever."

Viva La Revolucion!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmaTNf4YhEs

we have a problem

DOES not matter SAME SAME SAME ,ILluminati...
weee

simple things for simple

simple things for simple minds...........

"When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny."
-Thomas Jefferson

I am more concerned about the return of my money than the return on my money. --Mark Twain

More thoughts....

Hey there lpviper..... glad to see this thread is still ongoing. I think it has been a wonderful discussion!

OK... seems to me that we have several DIFFERENT approaches here and none of them are coming together.

First we have the "Philosophy of Freedom" which you so ably espouse. To this I would say that you are right. IF we had a "perfect" world (or even a "perfect" country) which was running consistently with the precepts of freedom and individual liberty, then it would be a country that was run according to the Constitution, with each individual free to determine their own course, and the free market and laws of supply and demand would be the determining factor in who goes where looking for work, etc. If there were no jobs, people would naturally not come. If there were jobs and no employees, others would naturally come to fill those jobs. Frankly if people come and don't NEED a job, I don't think anyone would care if they lived in the country or not. So all of this would really be a mute point. Since there would be no "give aways" in this perfect society nobody would get irate that the fruits of THEIR labor was being stolen to pay for others.
You would have a free flow of workers toward jobs, and a free flow of those same workers away if the work dried up.

Secondly, however, we have HOW THINGS ARE. Unfortunately we are NOT living in that country and haven't been for some time. The US government has completely abandoned the free market and has adopted socialism - which is legal THEFT - and has for AT LEAST the past 60 years. So the GOVERNMENT has created a situation in which people who work are robbed, and their money is given to others (whether they are illegal or not). This leads to nothing but bitterness and anger and outrage, which is coming to the fore more and more now that hard times are hitting. On top of the US government screwing everything up..... the Mexican government has never been anything but a system of "royalty" and in order to keep their "slaves" from rising up, has aggressively ENCOURAGED their citizens to go to the "other side" and eat off the gravy train there. So we have a situation in which the people of BOTH nations are merely slaves to masters who are robbing them blind and keeping them distracted from where the true problem lies.... .with their corrupt governments. AND it serves the purposes of BOTH governments to have the SLAVES hating EACH OTHER, which keeps them from turning around and marching toward the "castle" with their torches and ropes. So BOTH governments encourage attitudes on the part of the slaves that keep them arguing and hating each other. The US government steals from its people and hands it to others. The Mexican government encourages an attitude of "entitlement" on it's people as it gives them maps of the border and sends them off with a chip on their shoulder.

NOW after all of this manipulating on the part of both governments for the past half century, we have a situation in which A) there are no more jobs, B) the welfare state is broken and C) there are about 12 - 20 million Mexicans in the country who, in many cases, are stuck here (if they get caught trying to go home they get put in jail.... if they stay they may not find any work.. and get put in jail) and D) all of the SLAVES are battling with each OTHER instead of their own governments.

Since the situation has been so completely messed up by the governments for so long, I think an interim solution needs to be found. This is similar to Dr. Paul's position on Social Security Recipients. In Dr. Paul's philosophy Social Security is unconstitutional. HOWEVER, he realizes that because of the government, an entire generation has been raised relying on this support and now they are dependent. Therefore, he encouraged a transition period in which those who are dependent would be taken care of, and those that are young could opt out.

I think we need to find a transition solution to the immigration "problem" in the same light. WE ARE, in fact - via our government waiving the carrot in front of their faces and shouting "come and get it" - the ones who created the problem in the first place. The primary solution would be to rescind the "welfare" benefits and "goodies" that people get. That ALONE would stop the flow northward, since they would not be SURE that they could find a way to live. In this way they would ONLY come if they KNEW that there were jobs waiting. With the job market in the US as it is, this is ALREADY working, as Mexicans are hearing that there are not any jobs and they already are much more reticent to come, and many are returning to Mexico from the US because of the lack of jobs (THAT is the way it should work anyway... why would you come if there were no jobs..... AND no welfare).

The next problem is what to do with those that are "stuck" in the US. This is where it gets tricky. We could, of course, try to "round them all up" and "throw them in jail" as some would advocate. But WHY on earth would anyone want to PAY for this task, or for supporting them in jail??? This makes no sense to me. And how do they ever "Pay" for their "crime" and get released? When are they ever NOT illegal? How does this ever resolve itself?. We would be paying to support them for the rest of their lives. Why don't we do something more along the lines of freedom and ALLOW them to leave. Make them unafraid to head toward the border. Make them know that if they wish to return home they will NOT be arrested. Offer them FREEDOM of MOVEMENT to GET HOME. And since this massive screwup is going to take some initial "tweaking".... maybe we could even take some of the money that we were going to spend on jack-booted thugs and prison camps, and life-long support, and instead, invest in bus tickets or other modes of transportation to help these people go home.

For those that don't want to go.... if they can support themselves and NOT take the freebies.... then it means that there are jobs, or they are independently wealthy. In that case, at this point in time, I don't think there is much to do. We simply don't have the means to go out and FIND these people. If they are not "mooching" it doesn't really matter. And if they turn to crime then THAT is what they would be arrested for.... not for being "illegal".

Hopefully ONE DAY we will live in a TRULY FREE society where none of this will matter. But at this time EVERY nation of the WORLD is socialist and therefore it is a problem in all nations. The freedom movement should aim at becoming WORLD WIDE so that one day freedom OF movement is a REALITY... because NOBODY will be allowed to steal (legally or illegally) from another. ALL will be operating under the principle of freedom and supply and demand.

________________________________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6pAcBXt2j8
"Not armies, not nations, have advanced the race; but here and there, in the course of ages, an individual has stood up and cast his shadow over the world."

Thomas Jefferson: “Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever."

Viva La Revolucion!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmaTNf4YhEs

Possible "Interim" Solutions

ElViejo (does that not mean "the elder" in Spanish -- I bet you're not older than me :) -- You have made some good points and I commend you for being insightful enough to recognize that our governments' policies are what is causing the animosity between Mexicans and Americans. That being said, let me make a point about interim solutions to problems caused by government.

Ron Paul's Social Security solution is a good one, both from a moral/ethical standpoint and in practical terms. Why? Because it involves moving the amount of government coercion and expense in only one direction, and that direction is toward a reduction. But one should never use the existence of one form of tyranny or problem caused by government to justify calls for an increase in government coercion. That is the exact situation we have with the recent financial system bailout. We have proponents of the bailout at least admitting that the government is "partially" responsible for the economic troubles we have. They then use this problem to call for a "solution" which involves more government. If you implicitly agree with that rationale (well government has caused the current problem with immigration therefore we need a government solution to the problem) you are on the slippery slope to supporting the bailout.

To make an analogy with your argument -- We have a problem caused by American citizens getting welfare checks. We will solve that problem -- not by eliminating welfare -- but by making it illegal for welfare recipients to travel on any streets where there are welfare offices. This solution has two obvious features:

1. It involves more government coercion.
2. It is glaringly unfair and unworkable.

Now replace "American citizen" and "welfare recipient" with "Mexican immigrant" and replace "any streets where there are welfare offices" with "any place within the territorial borders of the United States."

Anyone can see that essentially the two situations are structurally identical. Even though these two situations are isomorphic, and I can probably get you to agree with (1) and (2) in the first, and (1) in the second, for some reason you are still insistent that (2) doesn't apply to the second situation.

Just some food for thought.

P.S. -- I wish to apologize for implying I thought anyone who supports legal restriction on immigration to be an anti-Hispanic bigot. I am particularly sensitive on this matter as at one time in my life the woman who is now my girlfriend accused me of being a racist because I opposed laws prohibiting employment and housing discrimination in the private sector. Again, I apologize. I am open minded enough to realize that there could be other reasons for supporting policies I disagree with.

I'm not sure I understand...

In taking your analogy and inserting your suggestions we get ... " We have a problem caused by Mexican Immigrants getting welfare checks. We will solve that problem -- not by eliminating welfare -- but by making it illegal for Mexican Immigrants to travel any place within the territorial borders of the United States".

This was not what I was suggesting -- but I do know that this IS what has happened.

My point was that right now we spend a lot of time and money looking for and "rounding up" illegals who are not doing criminal acts. For example, if a man is a US citizen, but his wife is not, but they are just living their lives and not TAKING from others, why should we spend even one tax dollar worrying about this situation? There are situations where there are grandparents living in the US illegally, who have been living there for 40 years, and in the current atmosphere they are afraid of being "rounded up". I would suggest that bothering to LOOK for illegals who are causing no problems is a worthless (and expensive) endeavor. Getting into all of the emotional mess of breaking up families, or uprooting people who have lived in the US for generations and caused no problems is just stupid.

What I was suggesting was that those that WANT to leave are currently (because of the situation you outlined) afraid to walk the streets, or start on their trek home because in the current atmosphere they could be arrested anywhere along the way... while they are attempting to go back.
It seems to me to be a cheaper and more practical solution to simply stop wasting funds and manpower on this, and instead, have law enforcement worry about only those who are committing violent crimes.

For those that WANT to go home but do not have the means, we could spend SOME of the money that we are currently spending on "enforcement" and encarceration..... and use it instead to buy them a bus ticket, or setting up a meeting place where many could come and go home by plane, etc.

In looking at this I THINK we agree here?? Of course, I realize that what I propose in this is also a "perfect world" scenario since also feel that the current situation was artificially CREATED specifically FOR the purpose of using the illegals as a focus of public outrage so that law enforcement can start their "practice" of round ups and encarcerations with huge public support. Then after the kinks are worked out, they will start on the rest of us.

_________________________________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6pAcBXt2j8
"Not armies, not nations, have advanced the race; but here and there, in the course of ages, an individual has stood up and cast his shadow over the world."

Thomas Jefferson: “Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever."

Viva La Revolucion!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmaTNf4YhEs

Many illegals have left the

Many illegals have left the country untouched by authorities, others have been caught and deported. I believe last year alone, over 200,000 were deported. Don't think anyone knows how many left on their own.
I think its the right idea to encourage them to leave on their own, not physically deport all of them(but deportations should continue as a deterrent) which is impratical and too expensive and not necessary. If they can't work here illegally and they can't get welfare here, then most would prefer to leave the country, and many do and most would not bother coming, they'd get in line and wait to come here legally like the millions of others around the world who are waiting to come here illegally.
However, the number coming in is still far exceeding the number leaving. With adequate enforcement of laws against illegal immigration, that would be happening(illegals leaving the country on their own and few sneaking in), the problem being solved. However we've never had a president in office that I know of who enforced laws against illegal immigration well enough, hopefully someday we will and the problem of illegal immigration could be more or less solved within one 4 year term. However, the next president who comes i could undo everything with lax enforcement of laws, thats why its so important to for citizen voters of this country to not allow that to happen.

There have been states like Oklahoma, Arizona and Georgia which have passed tough laws against illegal immigration, and even though they don't do a very good job of enforcing those laws, just the threat of real enforcement of the laws is enough to cause many illegals to leave on their own. Here is a link with more infromation

http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/mexico-complains-too-many-...

In the sentence I wrote

In the sentence I wrote above, I meant to say: they'd get in line and wait to come here legally like the millions of others around the world who are waiting to come here legally

Sorry, I caught the typo too late to edit it out

Good point

I think you make a good point Theone77. I don't think we need to do massive roundups, bus/train 'em to camps, etc. I oppose federal government police state measures with regards to rounding up dissenting patriots, and I have to apply that same standard to combating illegal immigration as well. Encouragement is working by states that do enact tough laws, do away with sanctuary cities, and I know with regards to Oklahoma, they are having success. I read a few months ago that the numbers are declining there.

Question

Hi. Simple question. Please do not call me a bigot for asking a question.

I believe in individual sovereignty. I believe we are a sovereign nation. I believe that what makes our nation sovereign is that we are a nation of individual sovereigns who have declared that the lands from the Atlantic to the Pacific between Mexico and Canada, our 2 neighbors who's sovereignty I respect and appreciate, is the sovereign territory of these united States of America.

My question is this: Do you believe that individual sovereignty and national sovereignty are mutually inclusive or exclusive?

I believe the 2 are mutually inclusive, and that is my understanding of Ron Paul's position as well.

When we have an embassy in a foreign country, or a foreign country has an embassy here, we respect those plots of land as sovereign territory.

Lastly, I humbly ask for a reply that does not imply bigotry or racism simply because my opinion might differ from that which you hold. Please, bring civility back to the debate. I am trying to be respectful of your views, and I have even acknowledge a previous error on my part in hopes of continuing forward in good faith, and I closed last night in a spirit of friendship. I only hope you do the same tonight in response to my question. Thank you

Mutually exclusive

By claiming that a 'nation' has sovereignty, you claim by extension that it has rights. Nations don't have rights. Individuals do. When you believe the fallacy that a corporation has rights, you invite it to strip away pieces of your own sovereignty by claiming its own sovereignty is superior (the 'greater good').

Property is not sovereign. Nations are not sovereign. People are sovereigns.

'Live for yourself, there's no one else more worth living for,
Begging hands and bleeding hearts
Will only cry out for more...'

'Live for yourself, there's no one else more worth living for,
Begging hands and bleeding hearts
Will only cry out for more...'

the problem is since the

the problem is since the beginning of time man has sought to take another mans "sovereignty away.. nations form as protection from others.
borders are set. should we let others from other nations infringe on our sovereign rights?
r
"When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny."
-Thomas Jefferson

I am more concerned about the return of my money than the return on my money. --Mark Twain

Corporation

Good point on the corporation part, but I do not believe we are supposed to be a corporation. The founders didn't give us one at least, but ever since 1933 that is in essence what we have become. I would like to see our nations status as a corporation end, because I believe it is an abuse, whereas our "corporation" has been bankrupt and in receivership to international bankers since then, and the current monetary system makes it mathematically impossible to ever get out from under this bankruptcy. The gold fringe around the flag comes to mind regarding this status as a corporation. (I talked to a judge about it today too!)

Anyways, my belief is that as a nation of individual sovereigns, we have an inherent property right to say this sovereign land is ours, but that it is not a collective right of the nation as a whole. It is a right under the 10th Amendment reserved to the States. Oklahoma recently declared sovereignty under the 10th, and gave the Federal government the finger.

Amendment X:

""The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited to it by the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.""

My understanding is that the Federal government does not have lawful authority to engage in border security except to prevent or retaliate against invasion. Also my understanding is that this is a "States Rights" issue, and the States are to retain their right to secure their borders.

The question is "are we under invasion"? Some have made declaration as such with intent to form a new nation. Ideally I would like to see the States take personal responsibility for their borders, with help from the other states if need. The Constitution does recognize "States" as an entity. I know that probably does not conform to your position, but my view is that a Constitutional Amendment would be needed to change that.

Thank you very much for your reply, and for being cool. I look forward to your thoughts regarding the 10th. Night man :)

That's the problem

Land is not sovereign. The entities known as 'states' are recognized as such by other governments, but for basic purposes they are fictions. Also, a 'state' cannot take 'personal responsibility' because a state is not a person.
It's all a big shell game, and we play whether we want to or not.

The immigration of Mexicans is not an invasion. The government plays down to fear by decrying all the 'benefits' that these people get, when they created the 'benefits' in the first place.

Who is the criminal? The man who rides 500 miles in a truck to pick lettuce, or the tyrant who steals your money and gives it to others for the 'greater good', and threatens to lock you in a cage if you don't violate your own fifth amendment rights (tax forms)?

We need to look closer at who is harming who here, instead of playing the blame game and chasing the dollars, which were stolen from you, not by 'illegal' immigrants, but by socialists advocating and practicing the redistribution of wealth.

And if you think the money grab is for your benefit, well... I have this old car in my driveway. It ran when I parked it...six years ago. But it ran great! Wanna buy it?

'Live for yourself, there's no one else more worth living for,
Begging hands and bleeding hearts
Will only cry out for more...'

'Live for yourself, there's no one else more worth living for,
Begging hands and bleeding hearts
Will only cry out for more...'

governments are instituted among men (and women: 19th Amendment)

The States are governmental entities recognized under the Constitution and therefore have rights, and can take responsibility by calling forth the Militia if need, instead of looking to big federal government to do it for them. If this system was operating properly as the founders intended, the calling forth would not even be needed, because the job would be done as a normal routine of daily business. The Militia is the whole body of the people age 18-44 that is able bodied and not currently in the military. If you fit this description, then you are the Militia and should take personal responsibility to defend your borders. Unfortunately the system envisioned by the founders is broken.

I have stated before, I hold our government responsible for allowing this to continue, but that does not negate the personal responsibility that those individuals who come here share. As some, not all of them mind you, come to declare independence and form a new nation, refusing to accede to our laws and our Constitutional form of government in doing so, those that do need to be held responsible for their actions. Holding them responsible is not blame game. It is the just application of our laws.

I agree that corporations of our nation do send economic hit men in and engage in activities that do harm, thereby creating the "problem". Then this causes a "reaction" out of the people who want something done about it. By letting the problem fester and continue, The reaction gets worse, until the only "solution" available will be their NAU. Problem, reaction, solution. I choose to make a choice to support and defend the Constitution of the united States against all enemies both foreign and domestic. I view the establishment of either a NAU or Aztlan, and anyone who promotes them, as foreign and domestic enemies of the Constitution. To do so is not bigoted. It is patriotic in the true sense because it resists oppressive state power that maintains the status quo. I stated before, see the NAU and Aztlan as 2 prongs of the same threat by the CFR.

The individuals who seek to build this new nation do not come here for our money, they want our land. They said so. I listened. I understand and sympathize with their anger and frustration, but do not agree with their methodology. By holding our government and corporations responsible we can begin to help them help themselves. Thanks for the reply lp.

They do a lot more than just

They do a lot more than just pick lettuce, they also do a lot of other jobs like construction work, and cause employers to lay off U.S. citizen construction workers and hire illegal aliens instead, because the illegal alien workers will almost always work for less pay than a U.S. citizen will.

It is worth saying though that the primary blame should be put on the politicians in our government for not adequately enforcing laws and allowing the problem to get as out of control as it has. But that doesn't mean illegals should get a free pass either.

Liberty, Capitalism, Property Rights and The Free Market

demand open borders.

For all the socialist, anti-Hispanic bigots on this site, listen up.

I am opposed to tax supported government services for immigrants just as I am opposed to tax supported government services for all people. In the free market, I have the right to employ or rent my property to anyone I please. It doesn't make any difference if that person is an English speaking Nordic or a Spanish speaking brown skinned Mexican. For you to claim you have the right to legally restrict me from doing so is for you to promote socialism. Don't Ron Paul supporters oppose socialism? Or is it that we only oppose socialism for Nordics?

I do not believe in "National Sovereignty." As a believer in liberty and capitalism, I believe in individual sovereignty. I thought a Mexican immigrant's property rights were just as valid as a native born American's. Or do you not believe in inalienable individual rights?

Have you not read the Declaration of Independence? It says, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, and that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..." Note the phrase "all men...". It does not say "native born Americans."

I was greatly inspired by the Ron Paul campaign. Ron has been one of the most tireless and consistent advocates of reducing government and ending US imperialism I have ever seen. But I despair of his movement ever succeeding because of the inconsistency of many of his followers. If only they would take Christianity's Golden Rule seriously enough to welcome people to this country who wish to pursue the American dream.

By the way, I am not an advocate of "illegal immigration." In the free society I envision, there would be no legal restrictions on peaceful immigration, thus all immigration would be legal and none would be "illegal."

lpviper you have done liberty a great service.

The problem here is, you are

The problem here is, you are asking Ron Paul supporters to come to your point of view, but Ron Paul himself disagrees with your point of view, therefore many of his supporters(including me)will disagree with your point of view. Ron Paul believes in national sovereignty. Ron Paul does not believe in open borders with no enforcement against illegal immigration, and he is opposed to employers hiring illegal aliens(because its illegal to do so, for anyone who didn't know). Ron Paul believes in enforcing laws against illegal immigration. Ron Paul also believes in haing English as the official language of the united states. Does that make Ron Paul a socialist or an anti-hispanic bigot? Of course, the answer is no, but from the way you talk, it sounds like thats what you think.
And stop implying that Ron Paul supporters only want rights nordic whites but not for hispanics, I find that offensive. Most Ron Paul supporters don't have a problem with people who respected our laws and waitied in line to come to this country legally. As I've said before, illegal aliens come in all races, whites inluded. Yes, approximately 80% of illegal aliens are hispanic/latino, but that is because Mexico and central america are so close to the United states that its much easier for citizens of those countries south of the border to sneak into the U.S. illegally, while people from most other countries are unlucky enough to have to get across the ocean to get here, they can't simply walk across the border at night.
If you were greatly inspiried by Ron Paul, then you should have been inspired by his positions on illegal immigration too. I know I was.
And as far bringing Christianity into the illegal immigration discussion, here is an article dealing with that very subject, a Christian viewpoint on illegal immigration

http://www.magic-city-news.com/Jan_Herron_59/What_Would_Jesu...

Thank you

I have created and revived this thread nightly for the past several days in the hope that this message can be understood by as many as possible, even if only one person.

Liberty is either for all or for none. The middle ground is the breeding ground for tyranny.

Don't allow it folks. Stand up to anyone who would take anyone's liberty from them, because guess what? When it's your turn there will be no one left to defend you.

'Live for yourself, there's no one else more worth living for,
Begging hands and bleeding hearts
Will only cry out for more...'

'Live for yourself, there's no one else more worth living for,
Begging hands and bleeding hearts
Will only cry out for more...'

My Best Conclusion

Lpviver, "you work for the Government!

Oop

My Best Conclusion

MageesterMixit, let me get this straight --

Lpviper advocates less government and more liberty and capitalism on the issue of immigration, while you advocate more government and socialism on the issue of immigration, and yet you claim Lpviper "works for the government"?

My best conclusion is you attended government schools and can't reason correctly.

Yawn

Yawn...

From dictionary.com

property - that which a person owns; the possession or possessions of a particular owner.

Now, explain to me the relevance of your question

'Live for yourself, there's no one else more worth living for,
Begging hands and bleeding hearts
Will only cry out for more...'

'Live for yourself, there's no one else more worth living for,
Begging hands and bleeding hearts
Will only cry out for more...'

Metro Detroit

lpviper, get out of Metro Detroit and go live in Texas for a year or two (i was there for 25 years) and then we can talk about open borders.

if this issue is that important to you i think you should move to Texas so you can get a full grasp of the situation. put your money where your mouth is.
----------------------------------------
Ron Paul Supporter Since 1997
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
Thomas Jefferson

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I had a job where

I worked in Laredo, TX for a while. As you know, Laredo is very close to the border. Most of the people there appeared to be Mexicans, and many of them could not understand what I was saying to them.

But I was nice to them, and in return, they were nice to me and I got on very well during my time in south Texas.

No magic there, MMJ, just people getting along because we're people, and what would the point be of starting up a ruckus? I can tell you, I had some crewmates who did, and they did NOT have a good time in south Texas.

Maybe their culture wasn't the same as mine, but they were nice people. All I had to do to find that out was to be nice to them.

Amazing, huh?

'Live for yourself, there's no one else more worth living for,
Begging hands and bleeding hearts
Will only cry out for more...'

'Live for yourself, there's no one else more worth living for,
Begging hands and bleeding hearts
Will only cry out for more...'