A Christian nation?
John Adams and John Hancock:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]
John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
–John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798
"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen." December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson
"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell." [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817] |
.......click here to see this quote in its context and to see John Adams' quotes taken OUT of context!
Samuel Adams: | Portrait of Sam Adams | Powerpoint presentation on John, John Quincy, and Sam Adams
“ He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the Bible to all.” [ "American Independence," August 1, 1776. Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia]
“ Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity… and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the Christian system.” [October 4, 1790]
John Quincy Adams:
• “Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" “Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?
--1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.
“The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.”
John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son. p. 61
Elias Boudinot: | Portrait of Elias Boudinot
“ Be religiously careful in our choice of all public officers . . . and judge of the tree by its fruits.”
Charles Carroll - signer of the Declaration of Independence | Portrait of Charles Carroll
" Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." [Source: To James McHenry on November 4, 1800.]
Benjamin Franklin: | Portrait of Ben Franklin
“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech
“In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?” [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]
In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."
In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone."
Alexander Hamilton:
• Hamilton began work with the Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Society to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton said made America great:
(1) Christianity
(2) a Constitution formed under Christianity.
“The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States.”
On July 12, 1804 at his death, Hamilton said, “I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.”
"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]
"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."
John Hancock:
• “In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that whilst every prudent measure should be taken to ward off the impending judgments, …at the same time all confidence must be withheld from the means we use; and reposed only on that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness… Resolved; …Thursday the 11th of May…to humble themselves before God under the heavy judgments felt and feared, to confess the sins that have deserved them, to implore the Forgiveness of all our transgressions, and a spirit of repentance and reformation …and a Blessing on the … Union of the American Colonies in Defense of their Rights [for which hitherto we desire to thank Almighty God]…That the people of Great Britain and their rulers may have their eyes opened to discern the things that shall make for the peace of the nation…for the redress of America’s many grievances, the restoration of all her invaded liberties, and their security to the latest generations.
"A Day of Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer, with a total abstinence from labor and recreation. Proclamation on April 15, 1775"
Patrick Henry:
"Orator of the Revolution."
• This is all the inheritance I can give my dear family. The religion of Christ can give them one which will make them rich indeed.”
—The Last Will and Testament of Patrick Henry
“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]
“The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed.”
John Jay:
“ Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” Source: October 12, 1816. The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, ed., (New York: Burt Franklin, 1970), Vol. IV, p. 393.
“Whether our religion permits Christians to vote for infidel rulers is a question which merits more consideration than it seems yet to have generally received either from the clergy or the laity. It appears to me that what the prophet said to Jehoshaphat about his attachment to Ahab ["Shouldest thou help the ungodly and love them that hate the Lord?" 2 Chronicles 19:2] affords a salutary lesson.” [The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, 1794-1826, Henry P. Johnston, editor (New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1893), Vol. IV, p.365]
Thomas Jefferson:
“ The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend to all the happiness of man.”
“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.”
"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."
“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.” (excerpts are inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson Memorial in the nations capital) [Source: Merrill . D. Peterson, ed., Jefferson Writings, (New York: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), Vol. IV, p. 289. From Jefferson’s Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, 1781.]
Samuel Johnston:
• “It is apprehended that Jews, Mahometans (Muslims), pagans, etc., may be elected to high offices under the government of the United States. Those who are Mahometans, or any others who are not professors of the Christian religion, can never be elected to the office of President or other high office, [unless] first the people of America lay aside the Christian religion altogether, it may happen. Should this unfortunately take place, the people will choose such men as think as they do themselves.
[Elliot’s Debates, Vol. IV, pp 198-199, Governor Samuel Johnston, July 30, 1788 at the North Carolina Ratifying Convention]
James Madison
“ We’ve staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart.”
“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]
• I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare the unsatisfactoriness [of temportal enjoyments] by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way.
Letter by Madison to William Bradford (September 25, 1773)
• In 1812, President Madison signed a federal bill which economically aided the Bible Society of Philadelphia in its goal of the mass distribution of the Bible.
“ An Act for the relief of the Bible Society of Philadelphia” Approved February 2, 1813 by Congress
“It is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity toward each other.”
• A watchful eye must be kept on ourselves lest, while we are building ideal monuments of renown and bliss here, we neglect to have our names enrolled in the Annals of Heaven. [Letter by Madison to William Bradford [urging him to make sure of his own salvation] November 9, 1772]
At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
“For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us.”
[Baron Charles Montesquieu, wrote in 1748; “Nor is there liberty if the power of judging is not separated from legislative power and from executive power. If it [the power of judging] were joined to legislative power, the power over life and liberty of the citizens would be arbitrary, for the judge would be the legislature if it were joined to the executive power, the judge could have the force of an oppressor. All would be lost if the same … body of principal men … exercised these three powers." Madison claimed Isaiah 33:22 as the source of division of power in government
See also: pp.241-242 in Teaching and Learning America’s Christian History: The Principle approach by Rosalie Slater]
James McHenry – Signer of the Constitution
Public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience.
Jedediah Morse:
"To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them."
John Peter Gabriel Muhlenberg
In a sermon delivered to his Virginia congregation on Jan. 21, 1776, he preached from Ecclesiastes 3.
Arriving at verse 8, which declares that there is a time of war and a time of peace, Muhlenberg noted that this surely was not the time of peace; this was the time of war. Concluding with a prayer, and while standing in full view of the congregation, he removed his clerical robes to reveal that beneath them he was wearing the uniform of an officer in the Continental army! He marched to the back of the church; ordered the drum to beat for recruits and over three hundred men joined him, becoming the Eighth Virginia Brigade. John Peter Muhlenberg finished the Revolution as a Major-General, having been at Valley Forge and having participated in the battles of Brandywine, Germantown, Monmouth, Stonypoint, and Yorktown.
Thomas Paine:
“ It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other sciences, and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles: he can only discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the Author.”
“ The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools, in teaching natural philosophy as an accomplishment only, has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism. Instead of looking through the works of creation to the Creator himself, they stop short, and employ the knowledge they acquire to create doubts of his existence. They labour with studied ingenuity to ascribe every thing they behold to innate properties of matter, and jump over all the rest by saying, that matter is eternal.” “The Existence of God--1810”
Benjamin Rush:
• “I lament that we waste so much time and money in punishing crimes and take so little pains to prevent them…we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government; that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of Christianity by means of the Bible; for this Divine Book, above all others, constitutes the soul of republicanism.” “By withholding the knowledge of [the Scriptures] from children, we deprive ourselves of the best means of awakening moral sensibility in their minds.” [Letter written (1790’s) in Defense of the Bible in all schools in America]
• “Christianity is the only true and perfect religion.”
• “If moral precepts alone could have reformed mankind, the mission of the Son of God into our world would have been unnecessary.”
"Let the children who are sent to those schools be taught to read and write and above all, let both sexes be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education”
Letters of Benjamin Rush, "To the citizens of Philadelphia: A Plan for Free Schools", March 28, 1787
Justice Joseph Story:
“ I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law. . . There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations.”
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]
“ Infidels and pagans were banished from the halls of justice as unworthy of credit.” [Life and letters of Joseph Story, Vol. II 1851, pp. 8-9.]
“ At the time of the adoption of the constitution, and of the amendment to it, now under consideration [i.e., the First Amendment], the general, if not the universal sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state, so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience, and the freedom of religious worship.”
[Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States p. 593]
Noah Webster:
“ The duties of men are summarily comprised in the Ten Commandments, consisting of two tables; one comprehending the duties which we owe immediately to God-the other, the duties we owe to our fellow men.”
“In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed...No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.”
[Source: 1828, in the preface to his American Dictionary of the English Language]
Let it be impressed on your mind that God commands you to choose for rulers just men who will rule in the fear of God [Exodus 18:21]. . . . If the citizens neglect their duty and place unprincipled men in office, the government will soon be corrupted . . . If our government fails to secure public prosperity and happiness, it must be because the citizens neglect the Divine commands, and elect bad men to make and administer the laws. [Noah Webster, The History of the United States (New Haven: Durrie and Peck, 1832), pp. 336-337, 49]
“All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.” [Noah Webster. History. p. 339]
“The Bible was America’s basic textbook
in all fields.” [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5]
“Education is useless without the Bible” [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5 ]
George Washington:
Farewell Address: The name of American, which belongs to you, in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of Patriotism, more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion" ...and later: "...reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle..."
“ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and Bible.”
“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.” [speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779]
"To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian" [May 2, 1778, at Valley Forge]
During his inauguration, Washington took the oath as prescribed by the Constitution but added several religious components to that official ceremony. Before taking his oath of office, he summoned a Bible on which to take the oath, added the words “So help me God!” to the end of the oath, then leaned over and kissed the Bible.
Nelly Custis-Lewis (Washington’s adopted daughter):
Is it necessary that any one should [ask], “Did General Washington avow himself to be a believer in Christianity?" As well may we question his patriotism, his heroic devotion to his country. His mottos were, "Deeds, not Words"; and, "For God and my Country."
“ O Most Glorious God, in Jesus Christ, my merciful and loving Father; I acknowledge and confess my guilt in the weak and imperfect performance of the duties of this day. I have called on Thee for pardon and forgiveness of my sins, but so coldly and carelessly that my prayers are become my sin, and they stand in need of pardon.”
“ I have sinned against heaven and before Thee in thought, word, and deed. I have contemned Thy majesty and holy laws. I have likewise sinned by omitting what I ought to have done and committing what I ought not. I have rebelled against the light, despising Thy mercies and judgment, and broken my vows and promise. I have neglected the better things. My iniquities are multiplied and my sins are very great. I confess them, O Lord, with shame and sorrow, detestation and loathing and desire to be vile in my own eyes as I have rendered myself vile in Thine. I humbly beseech Thee to be merciful to me in the free pardon of my sins for the sake of Thy dear Son and only Savior Jesus Christ who came to call not the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Thou gavest Thy Son to die for me.”
[George Washington; from a 24 page authentic handwritten manuscript book dated April 21-23, 1752
William J. Johnson George Washington, the Christian (New York: The Abingdon Press, New York & Cincinnati, 1919), pp. 24-35.]
"Although guided by our excellent Constitution in the discharge of official duties, and actuated, through the whole course of my public life, solely by a wish to promote the best interests of our country; yet, without the beneficial interposition of the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, we could not have reached the distinguished situation which we have attained with such unprecedented rapidity. To HIM, therefore, should we bow with gratitude and reverence, and endeavor to merit a continuance of HIS special favors". [1797 letter to John Adams]
James Wilson:
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution
Supreme Court Justice appointed by George Washington
Spoke 168 times during the Constitutional Convention
"Christianity is part of the common law"
[Sources: James Wilson, Course of Lectures [vol 3, p.122]; and quoted in Updegraph v. The Commonwealth, 11 Serg, & R. 393, 403 (1824).]
________________________________________________________________________
Public Institutions
Liberty Bell Inscription:
“ Proclaim liberty throughout the land and to all the inhabitants thereof” [Leviticus 25:10]
Proposals for the seal of the United States of America
• “Moses lifting his wand and dividing the Red Sea” –Ben Franklin
• “The children of Israel in the wilderness, led by a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night.” --Thomas Jefferson
On July 4, 1776, Congress appointed Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams "to bring in a device for a seal for the United States of America." Franklin's proposal adapted the biblical story of the parting of the Red Sea. Jefferson first recommended the "Children of Israel in the Wilderness, led by a Cloud by Day, and a Pillar of Fire by night. . . ." He then embraced Franklin's proposal and rewrote it
Jefferson's revision of Franklin's proposal was presented by the committee to Congress on August 20, 1776.
Another popular proposal to the Great Seal of the United States was:
" Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God"; with Pharoah's army drowning in the Red Sea
The three branches of the U.S. Government: Judicial, Legislative, Executive
• At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
“For the LORD is our judge,
the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king;
He will save us.”
Article 22 of the constitution of Delaware (1776)
Required all officers, besides taking an oath of allegiance, to make and subscribe to the following declaration:
• "I, [name], do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration."
New York Spectator. August 23, 1831
“ The court of common pleas of Chester county, [New York] rejected a witness who declared his disbelief in the existence of God. The presiding judge remarked that he had not before been aware that there was a man living who did not believe in the existence of God; that this belief constituted the sanction of all testimony in a court of justice: and that he knew of no cause in a Christian country where a witness had been permitted to testify without such belief.
New England Primer:
Used in public and private schools from 1690 to 1900 second only to the Bible
Some of its contents:
A song of praise to God
Prayers in Jesus’ name
The famous Bible alphabet
Shorter Catechism of faith in Christ
Look...
You will be able to find quotes, some taken out of context and some not, to support either position.
You can find facts that support both positions. Many of the the arguments for the nation being a 'Christian Nation' center around the fact that a lively and vibrant Christian society existed in our country from the outset and held significant political clout in many states. Those who insist that we most definitely are not a 'Christian Nation' cite evidence that church membership was in decline around the time of the revolution and point to the First Amendment and the Treaty of Tripoli as evidence of the secular nature of our society.
The truth is, there is truth to both arguments. In fact, the truth is the argument really stems from disagreement over the meaning of the term 'Nation.' Our government was created with a secular charter and a significant portion of the population was and is Christian: Where does that leave the 'Nation'? It is impossible to answer that question without first pinning down what the Nation is. Is it the government? Is it the people?
If the term 'Nation' refers merely to the 'government' of our nation then there can be little doubt: we are not a Christian Nation. The Government of this country was not intended to be, nor is it in fact an extension of Christianity. Yes, there are similarities between our legal code and Biblical Law, but parallels can be drawn between the law of our country and the basic tenements of almost any religion. These similarities do not indicate a bias towards any one religion, they simply reflect the universality of certain truths and moral codes.
Similarly if we confine the term 'Nation' to simply mean 'the populace of the United States' then a case can be made that we are a Christian Nation as there are many Christians living here and they wield significant political power.
Unfortunately for us, distilling the concept of 'Nation' down into either of these two components is not possible, the word is all encompassing, and therefore a definitive answer to this question is elusive. However in my heart of hearts I am inclined to agree with ruckmanite.
We are indeed a Christian Nation, just as we are indeed a Muslim Nation, a Deist Nation, an Agnostic Nation, a Hindu Nation, and an Aethiest Nation.
To be American it is not necessary to ascribe to a specific theological creed or to have a specific skin color all one must do is believe in those truths that we all hold self evident, and abide by the social contract that makes it all possible: The Constitution of the United States of America.
It doesn't matter how many times they claim it
It doesn't matter how many times they claim it, it has never been, and never will be true.
..................
"The main thing that I learned about conspiracy theory is that conspiracy theorists actually believe in a conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is chaotic..." —Alan Moore
It seems that by saying we
It seems that by saying we are or should be a Christian nation we are looking for the nation - the federal government - to be responsible for protecting Christianity. What a contradiction to our pursuit of individual liberty! We who profess the name of Jesus as our example are to LIVE Christianity. It needs no protection nor government-endorsed proclamation, only our service to others in the example of Jesus.
Christian nation? Try modern day Babylon.
______________________
*** God bless Ron Paul ***
* Ron Paul For President *
______________________
*** God bless Ron Paul ***
* Ron Paul For President *
Question?
What's the story behind some politicians now saying the country was founded on "Judeo-Christian principles?"
Were any of the founders Jewish?
Ron Paul's Convention Speech
Ron Paul's Convention Speech
No
It's just a very misleading buzz word...if these snowed churchianity type Christians had any idea what they really think of Jesus (read the Talmud to find out), they would drop the "Judeo" thing really fast.
Thomas Jefferson, elaborated
Thomas Jefferson, elaborated about the history of common law and its connection to the founding of this country, it's laws and the foundation of its structure in his letter to Thomas Cooper on February 10, 1814:
"For we know that the common law is that system of law which was introduced by the Saxons on their settlement in England, and altered from time to time by proper legislative authority from that time to the date of Magna Charta, which terminates the period of the common law. . . This settlement took place about the middle of the fifth century. But Christianity was not introduced till the seventh century; the conversion of the first christian king of the Heptarchy having taken place about the year 598, and that of the last about 686. Here then, was a space of two hundred years, during which the common law was in existence, and Christianity no part of it."
". . . if any one chooses to build a doctrine on any law of that period, supposed to have been lost, it is incumbent on him to prove it to have existed, and what were its contents. These were so far alterations of the common law, and became themselves a part of it. But none of these adopt Christianity as a part of the common law. If, therefore, from the settlement of the Saxons to the introduction of Christianity among them, that system of religion could not be a part of the common law, because they were not yet Christians, and if, having their laws from that period to the close of the common law, we are all able to find among them no such act of adoption, we may safely affirm (though contradicted by all the judges and writers on earth) that Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."
//www.1776solution.blogspot.com
http://militantjeffersonian.com
"Men do not willingly read unpalatable truths of themselves. The People like those best who fool them most, by pandering to their vices and flattering their foibles" Raphael Semmes
They were saying on the History channel that Jesus
Was this widely known trouble maker who was stirring things up politically so the Roman Emperor sought to kill him.
Funny how the whole concept of the Jews wanting to crucify him for preaching and how Jews to this day still speak bad about Jesus was completely omitted and replaced.
You know... sorta like how its all been written in the Bible for over 2000 years.
============================
Glen Beck -- An Exposed Enemy:
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/90198
Glenn Beck Supports NAFTA and taking your job:
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/86643
Humm
http://www.virginmedia.com/images/demotiv-poster-431x300.jpg
Find out if you have a local militia - http://www.uaff.us/
Real Patriots for 9/11 truth -- http://patriotsquestion911.com/
Want to find out what the Jews REALLy think of Jesus?
Read the Talmud. (hint; it's pretty ugly)
Christian nation?
Perhaps some of the founders were Christians, and maybe the Constitution invokes God on occasion, but I don't think there's any rationale for saying the USA is a Christian "nation"... The only reason for suggesting that would be to imply that we are a Christian nation, therefore the people must follow Christian ways.
Even if we are a Christian nation (whatever that means), I don't care... As long as the government is not infringing on my freedom of religion then it's not worth discussing what religion our nation is.
Now obviously religion has a deep seat in politics today, which I do have a problem with. Faith-based initiatives on behalf of the Federal Government completely violate the idea of separation of church and state.
----------------------------------
Bumper sticker equipment
DuraLabel Supplies
get busy
The only error is in trusting other men with your future.
weee
Stop it.
I'm allowing myself two stop-it's per week. STOP IT! (That's one. The title does not count.)
I wish there were an un-bump feature.
Then...
...stop reading the thread...Conserve your "stops".
I can't stop reading this thread
I can't stop reading this thread, because I never started.
I Keep Hoping Not
Dear Jesus, protect me from your followers.
LXXI BC: Ego sum Spartacus // MDCCCLVII: I am Dred Scott // MCMVL: Ich bin Anne Frank // MMX: Je suis Assange // MMXI: Ik ben von NotHaus
What a pointless argument.
The founders did not mention "Christ", or "Christianity" anywhere in the Declaration of Independence or Constitution. GOD can be interpreted to mean the god of any religion. "Our Creator" could be interpreted as your parents, and doesn't have to mean some spiritual entity.
If the founders wanted this to be a Christian nation, they would have stated so in the Constitution. They didn't, because they knew this would go against the principles of freedom they were trying to achieve. Unfortunately, they didn't give the same consideration to blacks at that time.
How can philosophy and values comprise a pointless argument?
What do you think the Founders did?? Not argue?
And you're right--the Founders did not specify a "Christian" nation because it would go against the principles of freedom--not that the principles they were trying to achieve--but what the ones they were using to create a government the likes of which the world had never seen. And where I ask did those principles and values come from? Thin air?
Oh, my head.
Yeah right.
Our forefathers intended for "our creator" to be interpreted as your "parents". When interpreting the Constitution, one should ascertain what the words meant according to the original intentions of the founders.
Such as what Jefferson meant when he wrote in the Declaration of Independence - "and with a firm reliance on divine providence" . In "interpreting" that statement, please refer to a Webster's dictionary that would have been accurate for the times.
Thomas Jefferson said:
"On every question of construction, carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed."
There is a massive
There is a massive difference between a Christian nation and a nation founded largely by Christians. We have the latter. The former is propaganda.
Let's leave behind all this Christian/non-Christian argument here. It has absolutely nothing to do with regaining and maintaining the rightful political order of the secular federal government given us by the Constitution.
And where did the ideas of liberty come from that imbue
the Constitution? Oh, boy...
I can't help it if you think
I can't help it if you think me an idiot - you don't know me. We all get to hide here in our self-righteousness and anonymity.
I'm a former minister at an evangelical church. I have a degree in church ministry from an evangelical school. If there's anyone here who should stereotypically agree that this is a Christian nation it should be me.
And yet I disagree fully.
Yes, you are right that many of the ideas and philosophies which formed the ideals of the Constitution and the very bedrock of our laws and culture are due, directly or indirectly, to the influence of Christianity. Yes, many of the founders were professing Christians even in a time of Enlightenment humanism and deism. Yes, some of our founders spoke often of their Christian faith.
But that does not make us a Christian nation - it makes us a Christian-influenced or maybe even a Christian-inspired nation at most.
Our founders knew well the tyrranical excesses brought upon a people when religion - any religion - was intertwined with government. They desired a federal government that could never use religion to bind the people. Of course, this did not mean that religious ideals would not or should not influence the people, the states, their federal representatives, or the decisions made by government; they simply wanted to limit Congress so that it should make no law establishing any form of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof - that's all, it's that simple, just like the amendment says (notice that the only mention of religion was in an amendment, and therefore not first mentioned in the original text). It doesn't mean that Christians have to leave their religious ideals at the door when they walk into Congress, but it was simply a limitation placed on the federal government to keep its power in check.
Just as that limitation should not be construed as a complete secularization of our country, the fact that our founders exercised their personal faiths, even in the forming of our government and its laws, should not be construed to make this a "Christian" nation.
We must remember the Constitution was adopted to give a more effective federal government to an already existent federation of states. Under it, the people of the several states are the sovereign entities, then next in line the states, then the new federal government. As sovereigns, the people are welcome to practice any religion their consciences allow, and the place of the federal government is to make sure that nothing changes that. And yes, that kind of freedom of choice came about because of the myriad Christian influences of the post-Reformation Western world. But that still does not make our nation, today or ever, a Christian nation.
Beyond these types of assertions and acceptances, all the rest is semantics. I'm sure those predisposed to calling this a Christian nation could agree with all these assertions and still not change their tune. But the subtleties here do matter, because they have an enormous influence on what we the people think is ok for our government to get involved with. And remember - those things they dabble in they seldom ever take their hands out of.
Yes, could hardly agree
Yes, could hardly agree more.
Can't help you, Fedor
Can't help you with this one, Fedor. Man's failures, i.e., bigotry. Yeah, well, we all continue to fail with that one and others, but we know we do because we have the backdrop of values and beliefs that derive from Christianity that informs of us that failure.
Anyway--whatever.
Wrong
"from Christianity that informs of us that failure" The human race had "values" long, long before Christianity. As a matter of fact, Christianity has been involved in some of our most disgusting acts. The Crusades, witch trials, etc. The Native Americans had "values" long before the christians showed up. So, lets stop the nonsense. Our "goodness' was NOT created by Christianity.
Well, first of all, I didn't say any of that
Please re-read what I actually wrote. To your point, the world had values long before Christianity--yeah, that's right. And what were they and what are they? Extreme forms of Islam have certain "values" that make my experience of womanhood on the planet somewhat tenuous, but that Christianity, i.e., the teachings of Jesus, makes impossible...i.e., death by stoning if I reveal an ankle...
Carrying the banner of Christianity does not make one a "disciple of the teachings of Jesus" as Jefferson described himself any more than my saying that I'm American while advocating wealth transfer, empire building, intervention, or forcing "democracy" on peoples around the world at the end of a gun qualifies me for the moniker. Got it?
Since you raise the point of "goodness", let's be clear. How that gets defined depends on one's values and how "good" they are is always mediated by the lens through which one evaluates them. Whether I get stoned to death or not for revealing that ankle I mentioned? Well, guess what? I'd take the lens of the "teachings of Jesus" any day of the week, which in no way blinds me to the ongoing failures of all of us to achieve through grace the goodness Christianity promises is in all of us.
"Extreme forms of Islam have
"Extreme forms of Islam have certain "values" that make my experience of womanhood on the planet somewhat tenuous, but that Christianity, i.e., the teachings of Jesus, makes impossible...i.e., death by stoning if I reveal an ankle..."
I don't want to assume you haven't, but maybe you should, like many Christians, read up on what nice "values" the bible and extreme forms of Christianity are based.
Like as you say, woman's rights:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/womens_righ...
Or what is punishable by stoning to death:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/stoning.html
Quite a list with a quite a lot of nonsense in there if you ask me, compare that to the zero mentions of stoning in the Qur'an.
Don't get me wrong, I think they are rather equally immoral books, but I'll pass on the lens of the bible at least if you don't mind.
Again--please read what I said
I said the "lens of 'the teachings of Jesus"...Who was it after all who stopped the stoning to death of Mary Magdelene?
Jesus...I'm speaking of Jesus...the Master.
I know you said the "lens of
I know you said the "lens of the teachings of Jesus"... Is a book that ascribes things to god/son of god irrelevant then? Are the parts where god commands the stoning of someone on their own and have no relevance to Jesus? I just mentioned two topics because those were brought up by you, but I'm sure you don't do plenty of things Jesus is claimed to have said as well as things he isn't claimed to have said.
I'm a firm believer in the
I'm a firm believer in the separation of Church and State and I don't believe that the President of the United States should dictate laws based on interpretations from the Christian bible. There are many religions in our Country and for the President of the United States of American to impose the Christian philosophy upon others who may not share the same views is a form of authoritarianism, which, would only lead to the persecution of those who refuse to accept or acknowledge Christian beliefs. Isn't this the very same reason that Jesus was killed?