Goodbye....
I would like to thank the DailyPaul for everything they have done for the R3volution! I hope that you continue to spread the truth on the federal reserve and our overbearing government.
Ron Paul has changed my life like so many of you. His truths have helped me make life changing decisions and my future will always be filled with the values he has shown.
as a Clark county Nevada delegate I am so grateful to the people I met and that worked so hard for Ron Paul during the primaries. I remember speaking in front of 3 precincts for Ron Paul and hearing people shout "Why waste your vote"... but I remember after my speech on why Ron Paul is the best candidate, people giving me the thumbs up and people crossing out Mitt Romney and writing Ron Paul on their ballots.
I cannot however be part of this group due to one issue. It is the issue of gay marriage.
I myself am not gay, but I have known so many people who are. Our nation has broken the biggest barrier of racism. But it looks like too many people in this movement have become ones that persecute people because of their natural sexual orientation and ones that think that judgement is in their hands instead of the hands of god.
I just cannot bring myself to accept this rational. I have to detach myself from this movement because of the people that I care so much about. Ron Paul is known for voting 100% on principle and sometimes voting no because of the smallest detail. I have friends and family that are gay and as a person that has the highest hopes for freedom and liberty I will never support any action against the freedom and liberties of them.
peace!
Prop 8 isn't a State's Rights issue if there are no sodomy laws
The government shouldn't have any rights to arbitrarily assign legalities or restrictions to marriage at all. So in my opinion, gays and lesbians should have the right to marry, because it isn't any of the government's business if they do.
But let's take it past philosophy, to pure legality.
If this were 1850, it would be constitutionally legal under the Tenth Amendment to say that homosexuals cannot marry, just as it was constitutionally legal under the Tenth to prohibit black people from intermarrying with whites. Morally wrong, perhaps, but constitutionally legal.
In 1850, American citizens had no restraints put upon the Tenth Amendment.
After the War Between the States, however, the Fourteenth Amendment passed, which states, and I will quote again, "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
If homosexuality is only a human classification or orientation, and a legal state between two adult partners, I would say that banning the right of homosexuals to marry is an abridgement of the 'privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States', and a denial of homosexuals "equal protection of the laws".
Now if the state had the nerve to declare homosexuality illegal again, it would then become a state's rights issue, because homosexuality, in that case, would be deemed a criminal activity by the state, and therefore something other than a human classification or orientation. It would then be a crime, and in that case depriving homosexuals of their liberty would be 'due process of Law'.
I expect Proposition Eight to be overturned rapidly by a court. It has no legal legs to stand upon.
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Can we all just get along...
"Time for all good men and women to come to the aid of their country"
"Time for all good men and women to come to the aid of their country"
You know what?
I don't care if you have sex in your basement with your dog. I do think it would be an act of cruelty to animals tho. I also don't want you shoving it down my throat that it is ok. If people have different views and drives, fine. I don't think kids in any country in the world need the confusion as to why Johnny has 2 moms and no dad or 2 dads and no mom.
I still believe marriage is and should be between a man and a woman. If you want to have a significant other of the same sex, feel free to do so but don't tell me I have to contribute to your health care or that I have to accept it.
I have a wonderful friend that is gay but he isn't flaming. He lives his life style privately and quietly. He doesn't demand that laws be changed to support his life style.
We all deserve the freedom to live our lives as we choose, but we do not have the right to tell others how to live unless, As Ron Paul says, we are hurting others.
1 footnote however, if you think this country has really broken through the barriers of racism you need to look at the voters on Nov. 4th.
who are the ones filled with
who are the ones filled with hate?
http://www.kpsplocal2.com/global/video/popup/pop_playerLaunc...
"When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny."
-Thomas Jefferson
I am more concerned about the return of my money than the return on my money. --Mark Twain
“A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on, and are punished.” (Prov. 22:3; 27:12 KJV)
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wow...
This thread really was long.. it took me a while to read every post...
Thank you to everyone who had such thoughtful posts..
I think that right now many of us in this movement are having a hard time.. knowing the truth is no easy burden.
I don't want to argue anymore on this issue. But I will state one more thing that hasn't been mentioned. Gays have a very high HIV rate in America. A big cause of this besides the higher chance of blood transfusion during gay male sex is that monogomy is discouraged by society and laws on these groups. If we can just allow these people to be married and have a safer monogomous lifestyle it would be so much better in fighting the disease.
But for the people that didn't want me to leave, thanks so much your posts.. I am not leaving the liberty and freedom movement. I will be putting my energy and focus on the legalizing of hemp for industrial use. I will be attending an end the fed rally in CO this month as well.
For the people who were so against freedom for gay individuals. I understand your stances (just last week my Christian preacher compared gay marriage to marrying dogs and cats), and maybe if the bills against gay marriage would of just lost by at least 1% then we wouldn't of had this conversation. But I feel so bad for all these individuals who are crying and wondering what place they have in this non-free society of the federal reserve, military and healthcare industrial complex.. but now they have to deal with the majority of the population who feel they do not deserve to be free.
http://www.meetup.com/RP2012GrandJunctionCO
I hope by now Gmartine
you've read many reasons to stay with the dailypaul & the Ron Paul movement. I didn't read all the posts, but I read a lot of them, & nowhere in them did I see the reasons for gay marriage. I'm not gay, so I haven't researched this subject completely, but I do know that if I had a same sex partner & we lived together & built a business & had assets, I would not want to be taxed on them if she died. Married heteros do not get taxed in this instance & all property just goes to the surviving spouse. I think this is one of the main tenets in the desire for gay marriage, & gay people are justified in wanting this protection of their property. Sure, you can have a house in joint tenancy with anyone, but anything else is open season after a death, for being taxed by the state & the fed. So, put down your bibles & look at the fairness in this one issue in the gay marriage scenario.
Have we met Gmartine?
Cynthia Kennedy
Nevada UnDelegate
Good Luck finding another
Good Luck finding another group you agree with 100% of the time. I too am not anti-gay, I voted against Prop 8 here in CA, but I dont think it is a majority of this site that is against gay marriage.
As libertarians, we are suppose to be for liberty for all, not liberty for most. We are suppose to defend freedom for everyone, whether we like them or not.
Keep in mind it is good to have checks and balances in any group, if someone can argue a good reason to not let gays marry, I'll listen, so far I have not heard any arguments, except for "definitions of marriage" or "changing the meaning of the word marriage", which is wrong. Marriage is the union of two things. "a marriage of the mind" "the chair was made from a marriage of maple and oak"
look up marriage at www.dictionary.com
settle down
LIBERTY HAS NOTHING TO DO
LIBERTY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH PERVERSION AND DEVIANT BEHAVIOR!
"When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny."
-Thomas Jefferson
I am more concerned about the return of my money than the return on my money. --Mark Twain
“A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on, and are punished.” (Prov. 22:3; 27:12 KJV)
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Ron Paul's message and...
the message of liberty and "good governance" states that a just government treats EVERYONE EQUAL and grants special favoritism to no one. Isn't this what we're all striving for! If you leave now our movement and our Country loses a solid Patriot. Please reconsider your "move".
All right, let's look at the situation.
This subject of gay marriage comes down to asking state governments to issue permits for marriage to these people. And with that comes certain government-offered "perks". This is a privilege, and not a right.
Now, since this is a 9th/10th Amendment issue, the Fed Gov has nothing to do with it.
And as such, each state may make laws as they see fit, as long as they do not abridge the Constitution.
So, if a person/group is petitioning government for a privilege, and the people in the state vote to not grant that privilege, then there's nothing else to be said about it.
Best bet is to move to a state that supports your agenda.
The irony is that most freedom-thinking people are doing everything they can do to extract themselves from being affected by gov't, and the gay marriage proponents are running head-first trying to get more into the government spider-web. I think this really says something about the people in that movement. If they think that getting a gov't license to do something makes them more free, then somebody needs to sit them down and have a talk with them.
State's Rights are a good
State's Rights are a good thing when used to undercut the power of Washington. (Which they should be used for---and often.)
I do not, however, think oppressing people based on group classifications necessarily follows the original intent of the Founders, nor the safeguards later added to the 14th Amendment.
If a hard-Leftist future state of California banned religious symbols on Christian churches, alleging the display of a crucifix to be unacceptable--do you think that would be perfectly satisfactory under the Tenth Amendment? Suppose churches that did not tear down their religious symbols were closed by the state because the state finds display of a cross offensive? Suppose they just started shutting down Christian churches at random, Soviet-style?
Because all the exact language of the First Amendment says is: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". It doesn't guarantee any religious freedoms at all at the state level.
I believe we should always err on the side of depowering government in 'grey areas'.
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Don't go... Hang in there, there are many of us who
Support the civil rights of gays and even those who seek plural marriages.
In Peace & Liberty,
Treg
Use good manners with everyone
aggressive homosexuals
I have never met a hetero sexual as dedicated to stocking, acting agressive or as obnoxious to total strangers in trying to get sex as the homosexual man.
As a teenager I was stocked as I walked down the street, I was pursued more obnoxiously than I have ever seen a straight guy when he is pusuing a woman.
On a different occasion as I went to the mens room there were a couple men standing around in there and one of them slid a hand drawn homo type sex act on paper and slid it under the door of the mens stall for me to see.
I had to leave without washing my hands.
When I left they also followed me, but I met my girlfriend and then they stopped following.
I know men have been crude in their pursuit of women.
To have total strangers acting like this is disgusting and perverted in the worst sense.
I do not care if homosexuals live that life style.
I do care if they are obnoxious as they have been when they treat teenagers like I have discribed.
I am willing to let them live as they choose but I am not willing to give them freedom to be that obnoxious.
I could say more but I think I have sent my message.
I have only had an interest in women so I honestly do not understand.
Liberty is our campaigns gift to the world it is our manifest destiny.
Freedom is a movement who's time has come. Our campaign will lead world wide freedom.
Liberty is our campaigns gift to the world it is our manifest destiny.
Freedom is a movement who's time has come. Our campaign will lead world wide freedom.
It's "stalked". I'm sure thats what you meant to say.
Did you ever think that if homosexuality was more accepted, that many homosexuals would no longer feel the need to secretly try to figure out who was "one" and who wasn't "one"?
Maybe they would not feel the need to go underground to figure out who was available for relationships?
My brother-in-law WAS homosexual, I say was, because he is dead now.
He married a woman, had a number of kids. Mostly to keep up appearances for his family. His mom, and dad were NOT open to the idea. The whole time he was married, he had to "sneak around'. He took risks rather than face the ignorant wrath of his parents. And yes, he ended up contracting aids, which is what killed him eventually.
He often said that he wished society would have accepted him as he was, rather than force him into life of keeping up appearances.
He's been dead for many years, and him mother STILL does not believe he was homosexual.
I also think you have embellished your story, for shock value.
"I don't endorse anything they say"
~Ron Paul On the 911 Truth movement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGyhlNY0y1k
bullshit. I dont believe
bullshit.
I dont believe this for a second. Unless you were at a gay bar wearing leather chaps. I live near San Francisco, and the Gay area is about the cleanest, safest, and nicest around. My wife and I have some friends that live near there, and they are (almost) always polite.
I'll bet more women are raped by straight men, than men raped by gays.
and lastly, Imagine for a second that gays become a majority, and the laws change, and you can ONLY marry another guy. Are you going to agree to that because majority rules?
Whenever voting to change laws, always put yourself in the position of the minority, as one day you may be one.
lol
you're a man, telling us that you never met a straight man that pursues women as vigorously as a the one or two homosexual men that pursued you?
oh.
my.
god.
where to start.
Let's take the big glaring one that sticks out like a fart in church first:
1. Could it be that you don't have occasion to witness aggressive straight men......BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT A WOMEN? You're a fox claiming to never have seen another fox steal a chicken.
2. I wonder what women who have been sexually harassed, raped, or beat would have to say about your conclusions. Probably that you are full of shit.
3. Let's take a look at your sampling size. Two. You met two aggressive gay men. Big WHOOP DEE DOO. You know how many gay aggressive men I've observed? One. You know how many gay men I know? Quite a few. And gay women too. Know how many straight men I've observed being the complete misogynistic bastards that some men can be? A helluva lot more. So much more that the representation, percentage-wise doesn't even come close.
Nice try at some misinformation. But the gays picking on you, is probably not the angle you want to take. First it's laughable. Second you sound like a pussy. Three it makes you seem incapable of dealing with life. Try a different one.
Wow how do you get through doors
with the size of your ego??
It is the height of arrogance to think that YOU or any straight man homosexual men come in contact with are so attractive and hard to resist that ALL gay men who see you want you.
Get over yourself. LMAO
************************************
*Bah* I'm too tired to be witty.
Stupid is the new sexy -- me.
www.thepurplegypsy.com
************************************
*Bah* I'm too tired to be witty.
Stupid is the new sexy -- me.
When the rapture happens - can I have your car?
www.thepurplegypsy.com
And now for something completely different...
It's called "The Ninth Amendment":
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
There's nothing in Article I, Section Eight about "enforcing morality", "determining who may marry", or "homosexual unions".
Laws against gay marriage are not constitutional. Case closed. NEXT!
Of course there is the Tenth Amendment. But I believe the Ninth Amendment was specifically added to discourage abuse of the Tenth. That could be why the Founders listed it first.
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Why would we want morality?
That antiquated old thing has done us no good in the past.....
"There can be only one permanent revolution - a moral one: The regeneration of the inner man."
—Tolstoy
"The body is but a vessel for the soul,
A puppet which bends to the soul's tyranny.
And lo, the body is not eternal,
For it must feed on the flesh of others,
Lest it return to the dust whence it came.
Therefore the soul deceives and despises."
Kevin,
quote:
" But I believe the Ninth Amendment was specifically added to discourage abuse of the Tenth. "
I don't think that the Ninth amendment was added AFTER the Tenth Amendment !
We'd have to study the
We'd have to study the historical records. I don't know.
I'm not saying it was added after what we call the Tenth was Law. I'm just guessing it's possible that they added it last, after some debate in the constitutional convention over potential abuses of the Tenth (as written).
That's what I'm suggesting..that someone went "wait--this puts the power of the state government over the individual. We need to add another amendment protecting the specific rights of the individual."
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Initially, Kevin,
your post came across as if you thought you knew what you were talking about !
.
.
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Aaawwww Kevin
You're so nice. :)
************************************
*Bah* I'm too tired to be witty.
Stupid is the new sexy -- me.
www.thepurplegypsy.com
************************************
*Bah* I'm too tired to be witty.
Stupid is the new sexy -- me.
When the rapture happens - can I have your car?
www.thepurplegypsy.com
Kevin, they will know
because I quoted your statement in my reply !
They'll know what?
They'll know what?
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Addendum: Section 1, Fourteenth Amendment
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
I believe the Fourteenth was written to close the loophole of specific abuse of the Tenth.
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So happy you cleared that up for us
I guess that means no other debate is necessary on this issue. Except, oh right...
Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
Maybe the STATES or the PEOPLE have something to say about the laws they want to make?
Get over yourself, already.
See Above.
Glad you acknowledge I cleared it up for you. I aim to please.
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Personally, I think they
Personally, I think they should have a right to marry.
Why it matters, I haven't yet figured out. Government should get out of the marriage business, the sex business, and stop stealing from (taxing) its citizens.
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