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Conspiracy vs Pure Austrian view of Financial Crisis

I have been having trouble reconciling two competing but seemingly valid viewpoints. I am sure there is a happy synthesis, but it is hard to discover alone.

#1-Austrian Economics

The fed lowered interest rates, government manipulation drove new money into housing and the rest is history. I believe this caused the crisis.

#2-Conspiracy theory

We more or less know that banks and the establishment have wanted a true global fiat currency and more importantly a global central bank. All of this is happening and would ONLY be happening at this speed given some sort of crisis. Given the textbook globalist nature of these interventions, its hard to deny any manipulative hand regarding the crisis. "They" have too much to gain by this crisis to not have a hand in it, and recent allegations as to JP Morgan's purposeful collapsing of some institutions gives credence to this.

Here is my line of reasoning.

We know that the 1% interest rates caused the cycle.

We also know that the powers that be need a collapse to carry out their vision.

However, I have no reason to believe that the powers that be believe that lowering interest rates to 1% causes business cycles. I know that about 99% of economists would likely not even admit to the possibility of lower interest rates accomplishing this problem prior to the current crisis. Even now, they ignore and downplay its significance. This leads me to believe that the powers that be wouldnt think to use interest rates to carry out their goals(at least not lowering them, maybe raising them). However, the perfection of this crash makes you wonder. Also, Alan Greenspan likely DID give at least some credence to the Austrian Business Cycle theory, and he was the establishment hack overseeing the interest rate drop. Also, Keynes was a total NWO establishment crony and he is largely responsible for the death of Austrian Cycle Theory in mainstream economics. Could it really be possible that the NWO could create a theory that fooled "all of the people all of the time"? I think fabricating popular economic theories is just about impossible to do. If it WAS done, then maybe the powers that be are all Austrians?!??!

Help.




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TOO MUCH OF A TYPE OF MONEY THAT CREATES SHORTAGE OF MONEY

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." Benjamin Franklin
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Virtually all money that has been created since the start of the debt based money system came with the obligation to pay back with interest. Therefore, as the economy grew and more money was created, the obligation to pay back got even bigger and the money shortage grew. Now we are at the point that this system no longer works. In other words, the money shortage cannot be solved by creating more money that comes with the obligation to pay back with interest. Therefore, I am convinced that this money shortage will not be solved and we will go though a major deflationary depression.

However, the problem is the shortage of money, but not shortages of commodities or manufactured goods. Aside from the money shortage, the economy is physically capable of producing what we need. Therefore, in a sense, this problem is not real.

The solution is to install a non-debt based money system.

People really need to read this and understand.
THE LOST DEBATE http://www.dailypaul.com/node/52732

Just my opinions.

government of the people, by the people, for the people
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Not all of the Fed's money

Not all of the Fed's money is created through debt.

Whenever the Fed buys anything on the "open market", it writes a check on itself to the seller, who then goes to a normal bank to cash/deposit it. That's newly created money without any debt behind it. When the Fed pays it's employees and buys whatever materials it needs for it's buildings, office supplies, and pays it's utilities, etc.

The Fed does create money without debt behind it.

Then when you consider that commercial banks have to pay for the same things the Fed does (employees, supplies, utilities, buildings, etc), it comes out of the interest that was earned by the bank, which then ends up right back in the economy to be traded again and again.

Crash Course

There's more to it than what you have listed, there is exponential growth in the population, money supply, debt, and then there is the theory of peak oil. I would highly recommend going to Chris Martenson's website and take the free "Crash Course". If you don't want to watch the whole thing at least watch, 3, 4, and 17a, b, c.
I have no connection to Chris but it really opened my eyes to what is really going on. Another thing to watch would be Alex Jones "Endgame", I know he's a conspiracy theorist but there are some things in it that fill in pieces of the puzzle. The Georgia Guidestones really makes me wonder whats going on.
Freedomforce International is another place to find information, this is G. Edward Griffins website who wrote The Creature from Jekyll Island.
I believe there is a group of people who want to cut the population of the world down to around 500 million people, (Tom Clancy wrote a novel about that called "Executive Orders") using starvation, biological weapons, and war. I'm wondering how they will decide who lives and who dies because it would be advantageous to keep intelligent and skilled people alive. Hope I'm wrong, but this is where I'm at right now.

world bankers are not austrians

simplest explanation....

the world bankers want central banks for means of control no matter what ends they are trying to achieve if any.

austrian economists are in favor of free banking and are completely opposed to central bank control and monopoly.

they are not and cannot be in cahoots.

world bankers may understand what the austrians are saying....if and when the austrian view becomes a significant threat then we will see how the forces match up and the tactics that each will take in doing battle.

but for now the austrians are the friend of the people hands down.
and the central bankers are committing fraud on a grand scale.

Ron Paul is My President

fyi, i did not write this comment...

i sent the link to some people.

all i can figure is that i was logged in and someone wrote a comment in my name - accidentally.

Ron Paul is My President

Ron Paul is My President

I think the two factors at play

dovetail nicely. They are not mutually exclusive, by any means. Think about it. If Austrian economic theory is objectively valid, and you are a globalist power monger, what course would you take? You would assess the economy according to the most reliable predictors and sell a fiction to the people to enslave them, namely Keynesian theory. So you can then act to bring the economy and the prosperity of the nation under the control of the elite while pretending to act in the nation's best interest. Diabolically simple really.

Greenspan used to be an Austrian Economist

Ron Paul mentioned this in one of his interviews. He explained how Greenspan had written articles on the value of gold. Dr. Paul than asked him about these articles before a hearing with the Fed and Greenspan said he stood by them still. When asked about them during the hearing, he got quite frustrated. So while most economists in today's age are still following myths Greenspan knew exactly what he was doing. He knows even now as he claims that it was Laizess-fair capitalism, and ideas of Ayn Rand that encouraged this. Even though anyone who had read such things would know better. The fed is an intentional entity, and while they play ignorant, arrogant and corrupt are far closer to the truth.

Who do we blame.

Should we blame the banks or should we blame the depositors?
Those who deposit money in a bank expect to receive interest for their money. The goal is to save money and live off the interest.
When the government borrows money, it pays interest to those who put their money in treasury bonds and expect to get interest.
Instead of spending the money and generating the economy, individuals and nations buy treasury bonds expecting interest. They live off the interest or roll it over into more treasury bonds. In this way they enslave businesses and people, perhaps unknowingly, but the fact remains.
Eventually the only way to generate the economy is for businesses to borrow money, and of course this cost is pasted on to consumers, who are encouraged to borrow money to keep the system going.
One solution is for people to stop using credit. This would lead companies to fail to repay their debt and go bankrupt and this would make investors lose the ability of earn interest from their money. In this way they would have no other choice but to spend the money that they have on deposit on goods and services, putting the money into the system via trade instead of usury.
grant

How can you make this statement...

You said: "I have no reason to believe the powers that be believe that lowering interest rates to 1% causes business cycles."

They absolutely DO know that it causes cycles.

That's precisely WHY they do it, and have been since 1913 when the "Fed" was created.

This is the whole point of why advocates of Austrian economics say that ONLY FREE MARKETS should dictate interest rates.

Not some secret organization doing immoral price fixing.

Interest rates are merely the cost of borrowing money and like any other cost in a free society, they should not be artificially controlled.

"We have allowed our nation to be over-taxed, over-regulated, and overrun by bureaucrats. The founders would be ashamed of us for what we are putting up with."
-Ron Paul

I make the statement because

I make the statement because its true. I really don't have any remotely hard evidence that they believe in the ABCT. Do you have any idea how many people believed that Greenspan did a good job? It is possible that Greenspan does believe in the ABCT, however, which I alluded to.

I have to say, I generally prefer dailypaul over RPF because it seems like the more radical forum, but some of these rude comments are troublesome.

Ventura 2012

You answered your question with your own statement...

You said:

"Here is my line of reasoning. We know that the 1% interest rates caused the cycle. We also know that the powers that be need a collapse to carry out their vision."

So don't you think they are smart enough to use those two principles in unison to carry out their vision? I certainly think so. I never said these guys were dummies.

On the contrary, the system of confusion they have set up is quite ingenious. To the point where even many very smart economists can't figure out the "magic" they are pulling off.

Read the book: "The Creature From Jekyl Island" for full clarity.

I agree with you about the rude comments. They accomplish nothing. Usually they come out of frustration from someone not being able to adequately explain or back up their position.

Socialist Liberals do it all the time when you set them straight with facts.

They just start calling you bad names.

"We have allowed our nation to be over-taxed, over-regulated, and overrun by bureaucrats. The founders would be ashamed of us for what we are putting up with."
-Ron Paul

I'm not sure that intellect

I'm not sure that intellect is the defining factor of what economic philosophy you believe, thats the thing. In my experience, that has been dictated by who your teachers were, and it rarely changes. Considering how these elites all went to top schools taught by Keynesian's or neo-classicals, its hard to believe that they understand/believe in Austrian business cycle theory. It is possible, however. I wish there was more evidence.

Ventura 2012

You should Articulate Better

1) Conspiracy Theory
2) Coincidence Theory

Remember it only takes 3 people soliciting harmful outcomes to create A CONSPIRACY... ooooooo

I tend to believe that there exists more than three people at the top who are trying to take advantage of the many at the bottom.

Of course it could be that the Government that loves you just made another mistake... coincidentally of course....

www.Umake.it the on-line resource for the hand made society

Say What? Number 2's a little vague.

What you describe wouldn't be inconsistent with Austrian theory in any event.

________________________________________________
"Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it." -- Joseph Goebbels

_____________________________
"Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it." -- Joseph Goebbels

Well, Austrian Theory shows

Well, Austrian Theory shows that it was 1% interest rates that caused this crisis. For #2 to fit with #1, the NWOites would have believe in Austrian Theory. So it is not necessarily contradictory, but does not seem plausible.

Ventura 2012

It Depends What You Mean By "Austrian Theory"

Certainly the Austrian school, perhaps to the exclusion of any other, has recognized that a ruling class of bankers stands to gain from manipulating the monetary apparatus. I don't see the contradiction, frankly.

I would suggest reading some Rothbard, particularly "A History of Money and Banking in the United States: The Colonial Era to World War II."

Rothbard and most Austrians do believe, along with Ayn Rand, that people act purposefully. The banking cartel didn't just stumble into their power. They intended to acquire it, and believe me they use it.

________________________________________________
"Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it." -- Joseph Goebbels

_____________________________
"Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it." -- Joseph Goebbels

I will take that book into

I will take that book into consideration. I have read a lot of Rothbard, and agree with a lot of what he says. However, I would be SHOCKED to find an Austrian Economist who believes that the powers that be themselves believe in the Austrian Theory of the Business Cycle.

Having said that, it is quite possible that Alan Greenspan agrees with this theory, so its possible that these guys are closet Austrians and use Keynesianism as a smokescreen.

Ventura 2012

There has been central banks since...

The 1700's...

You mean to tell me, those in control, the JP morgans, Rothchild's, yada yada... never came to realise that if they printed money out of thin air, with massive injections of money backed by nothing into the economy......

IT WOULD BE ALL FINE AND DANDY? lol

And you propose that they, for several hundred years, crisis after manipulated crisis.. they don't know what they are doing?

If you CONTROL something, you'd think you'd know how to use it after a few hundred years.... No? lol

It's not exactly rocket science.... marx and keynes were founded / supported to lay down justifications for the use and existence of the Fed.

It is possible, and I never

It is possible, and I never denied it(I actually posited this very thing), but the denial of ABCT is so complete among academics that its hard to comprehend how it could be controlled. TPTB tend to recruit from top universities, places that are bastions of mainstream thought.

Ventura 2012

It IS fine and dandy..

..When the cycle favors them. They make massive, sinful amounts of money from inflating fiat currency. You do understand that...right?

I'm trying to see if we're on the same page. If fiat money starts crashing, it isn't an "engineered crisis" any more than a heroin addict dying is an "engineered overdose".

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To answer your question...

Yes, I do understand that...

So... ? lol

just came back from mises institute...

the weekend before last for the supporters summit.
it was so incredible to meet and listen to all the speakers.
the doc was there both days. he got an award.

www.mises.org has the audio up and is in the process of getting the
videos up.

click on media and scroll down to the "the gold standard revisited" and check it out...

ps if you listen or better yet watch the videos of the summit i think it will help you to understand.

Ron Paul is My President

Ron Paul is My President

Me too!!!

Me too!!!

you went too..

that's cool. wish i had known.
there was another daily pauler there too.

Ron Paul is My President

Ron Paul is My President

occam's razor

you might consider applying occam's razor to this. that should eliminate number 2. austrian economic theory has pretty accurately predicted most trends in the market.

Laissez-faire Blog

Correct; the economy is

Correct; the economy is collapsing due to simple cause and effect.

SUPPORT OUR FOUNDERS' AMERICA
Support the Constitution of the United States

SUPPORT OUR FOUNDERS' AMERICA
Support the Constitution of the United States

Always suspicious

After two years of studying the damning evidence in regards to what actually happened on 9/11, no longer can anybody say with certainty that this financial crisis is purely an accident. The Austrian economists do unparalleled work in determining the cause and effect of the market, but they seem strangely blind or maybe willfully ignorant in regards to conspiracy. I think the recognition of the Austrians' own accuracy gives them the idea that they know precisely what's going on while the people in power are fools. This is a mistake.

Why would the government attack its own city? I don't know for sure, but I do know that those buildings were laced with explosives and cutter charges. I know that this 'new Pearl Harbor' helped carry out the agenda put forth in the PNAC documents. I know that a lot of military contractors benefited greatly and I know that we now occupy the middle east with permanent bases. Plenty of people benefited, the already-written Patriot Act was passed, the Bill of Rights has been completely undermined, and unprecedented power has been centralized in the executive.

Why would the government crash its own economy? I don't know for sure, but there are plenty of people getting obscenely wealthy from all these bailouts. America is being brought to its knees and calls for world government are being heard from the establishment. We, and Ron Paul included, already have known for decades that the ruling elite have long sought world government. This crisis, or coming crisis, will be accompanied with greater calls for world government, a new reserve currency and a loss of American sovereignty to unaccountable, transnational organizations. Are we to turn a blind eye to how this crisis benefits so many powerful people?

Anyone who thinks they know with absolute certainty that this crash is purely a mistake made by a bunch of powerful fools is demonstrating their own misunderstanding of the American government. Though, that's not to say that the crash cannot be a complete accident after all.

Well said, Lad!

Too many globalization actions in the form of US bank takeovers by UK, Spanish and two Japanese investment houses.

Too much we need a new world order to "avoid these economic crises."

Too much talking to France(?) about our economic problems.

Too much..."this is a global problem."

Now who is saying this?

The media...the core of credibility on this little planet...the media.

Sorry folks, but whatever the TV or the newspaper says is designed to get what "they" want...not what we need.

Unify

Conspiracy vs. Austrians vs. Objectivists

Richard Salsman has very interesting things to say about the Austrians (he disagrees completely with the Austrian view of the cause of the Great Depression). Available on CD is his presentation, "The Cause and Consequence of the Great Depression". Very interesting point of view. Recommended to add to knowledge/perspective on free market economics vs. statism.