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What are the good arguments for not bailing out the auto companies?

An argument that may be able to change a few people's minds.

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I have thought long and hard

I have thought long and hard about this and researched it myself and this is what i believe : pros to be as follows : save jobs down the ladder as well as at the top , maybe something good could come out of it with the government at the front door. here are the cons in my eyes : yes it would save a few jobs but many will be laid off anyways if you refer to when chrysler was bailed out before , also why do for some co. and not all , why should the government step in and save these ceo who screwed up but nothing is saving the little guy small business owners , i think that when joe blow screws up joe blow has to fix it but if you are a big co that screws up its ok you'll be saved. thats wrong the government doesn't help me when i screw up. these workers are paid great wages more than i ever see , co. paid health care which i don't have , it cost them 0.00 . let them file bankruptcy like other people , fire the idiots who screwed up and let the workers come and have to live like normal people that pay for our insurance , get fired if we screw up , etc. then they will be thanking god as i do for the good things in our lives. government doesn't belong in this fight . the old people who don ' t have meds or food that worked hard all there life,served there country , and now are old and not able to make ends meet so they get stuck in abusive nursing homes and discarded like a dirty rag thats what government should be involved in.
Car Glass Repair

The 700 billion has passed.

The 700 billion has passed. That money will not affect me the way it has passed. I did not commit to the purchase of a home I cannot afford. I am 100% against this bailout, and a believer in the free market. However, I am a Detroiter, the strong majority of my family and friends and everyone around me is tied into the Auto Industry. If the vote passes, at least 25 of that 700 billion will affect the community I live in. I am not thinking about the execs, ceo's and middle management. I am thinking about the men that work the line, the engineers, the ones that cling to American working class pride and ingenuity. Our elected officials will not stick the the constitution and free market principles, they already voted on the bailout, a letter to Levin will do nothing. I support a measure to take some of that money from the banks to ensure my neighborhood, and blue collar America benefits from that vote.
-Mr. Geralds

Downsize DC sent out a good reason Monday

According to DownsizeDC.org 's Downsizer Dispatch, the UAW has them locked into paying workers not to work. Apparently, they are obligated to continue paying people even when the economic situation says they need to cut back.

I think, if they went into Chapter 11 bankruptcy, the court could get them out of such contracts and they could afford to restructure and resume business. (Big government begets big business begets big labor and big special interest lobbies. They're all about to topple and the smaller, quicker folks better be ready to move.)

If they don't restructure and get competitive, they'll go under and all our cars will be imports or made by foreign car-makers in South Carolina or elsewhere.

US automakers are like brick houses on an earthquake fault. Congress can try to step in and make the walls thicker, but it won't help prevent the Big One.

They need to slim down and become more flexible in order to move with the market.

If I have to pay them bailout money, I want them to put a brand new car in my driveway, not sit there waiting for the market to stop moving!

IMissLiberty
Voting for the Lesser Evil? http://www.inductionworks.com/iw/form/qamap.php/ElectLesserEvil

What do you think? http://consequeries.com/

What no one seems to be seeing here.

These bailouts have nothing to do with strengthening the dollar. Look at your recent history guys and you can see a pretty clear pattern here. To think that these guys are doing these bailouts and all this nonsense to strengthen the economy and help we the people somehow is absolutly rediculous. They keep coming up with these rediculous ideas to bring back the economy and then when they fail horribly as they obviously are going to do you see all these guys like benanke and paulson sitting there going. Oops! Well we just didnt know that this or that was going to happen. Now usually when I post in any political forum there is some statement of anger within those posts because of what Im talking about right here. But in this post I would really like for you guys to think about what Im saying and then do your research. These men are not making mistakes. These guys are some of the smartest guys on the planet despite thier obvious void of morality. They act like they are trying so hard to help the dollar and they just keep making mistakes. Oops! Sorry america. No. I dont think so. In 2005 bush signed the NAU documents. This is what they want because when you break down the 170 countries on this planet into 4 unions all of the sudden its a whole lot easier to rule the entire world from one seat because now your not trying to govern 170 seperate countries but 4. Now what is the fastest way to bring down a country? Bring down its money. These men are intentionally trying to destroy the currency in this country so that they can change the money here to either the Amero or god forbid put all the money on microchips that they can stick under your skin and that way if you oppose them in any way they just turn off your chip and your done. You cant buy food, medicine or pay your bills. When that happens then it really doesnt matter what you think. They have control over every single living person on this planet and if you control the people, you control the world.

I recently had a conversation with someone about gun control and this argument is the definition of my anger with people in this country right now. I was saying that perhaps it would be best to hide his guns so that when the time comes and they come knocking on your dooor, and make no mistake people, that time is coming, then you can simply say you sold your guns or whatever you need to say so that you still have a way to defend yourself. What he said to me really struck me as the general ignorance of people in this country today. He said " What do you think will happen if they come try to take everyones guns? The people will revolt and fight back!" My response was " Look around you. If people are going to rise up and fight back when the government tries to take away thier rights then why didnt they rise up and fight back when they took away your privacy? Why dont they rise up and fight back when they try to openly destroy your currency or when they decided that 50% of your income was a reasonable tax?" No I dont think they will fight back at all. And by they time anyone acctually does decide to stand up and kick these bastards out of office our money will be gone, our guns will be gone and our freedom will be gone and that means America will be gone. So what are we going to do then? Rise up and be martyrs? No thank you. Not for me.

My point here is that to think these men are making mistakes is nieve. They are doing eveything they are doing for a specific agenda and they will not stop until you stop them or they enslave you. No one is going to ride in on a white horse and save us. If your looking towards Dr. Paul or anyone else to come be the hero and fight for you then your looking in the wrong direction. YOU are the hero. It is YOUR duty to do something about all this. Because if you dont do it. No one will. Now I see people all over the country trying to fight back through peacefull assembly. Groups like C.H.A.N.G.E. and such are waving signs all over the place. But now they are even taking away your right to assemble. Look at Adam Kokesh. This man was in Iraq and came back and told the truth of what he saw there and now he is going through court date after court date having to defend himself for telling the truth. How far will we let them go? Are we going to wait until they start dropping bombs on us before we do something? As I said months ago. The peacefull assembly isnt working. They simply arrest you. So my question is when? how much is enough? How far will we let them go before we acctually DO something about this. Im waiting for you America. I have been for some time. I pray god you are still there.

I'm here! And willing to do whatever it takes!

There is a big push for the rally and marches to "end the fed". I, like you, have come to the conclusion that these marches, protests and "letters to congress" are empty motions. We have lost these rights to protest a long time ago. Even our "right" to vote has been stolen and is now a big televised circus. We already know guns are being confiscated under as many peaceful excuses as can be used (just look at all the natural disasters where FEMA came in to help -themselves to all the weapons). The total all out assault on our education, or lack there of I should say, has produced a nation of people in total ignorance. The propagandizing on television and radio of "going to the expert" for advice has left this great nation's citizens helpless children. Americans DO NOT KNOW WHAT TO DO! They do not know they need to join together (no matter the race, religion, or political leaning) and take ACTION that effects change, grass roots action in every school, church and meeting hall. Start with one cause, the root of all evil, the central bankers and decide all together-end the fed. Refuse to use the phony baloney federal reserve notes. Oh how can I pay my bills, oh how can I buy my food, oh how can I get to work? What do you think will happen if every American everywhere refuses the fiat money? What is going to happen if you continue to participate in a fiat government? What is happening as you continue to support this fiat economy? Are you worried about the loss of your home, what of all the Americans already out on the street? Are you worried about going to work, what about all the Americans already struggling to live NOW? Are you worried about breaking the law, laws that are already abused and ignored by those in power? Rise up NOW Americans and WORK together from the ground up. Quit supporting the corporations, governments and bankers that care not for you or me! Quit chasing the pre-programed American "dream" that is turning into America's worst nightmare!!!!
At one time in America, we knew how to help each other - anyone remember the term "barn-raising"? There will be many who need help during a revolt such as this, but many more will be worse off in the future including YOU or your children! Go local, form groups locally, quit broadcasting to the whole world what you WANT to do, just do-it. This is one American who is so tired of hearing "but what can you do?" Pull your kids out of the government propaganda machines, turn off your "tell-lie-visions", and re-educate yourselves together. Take back control of yourself, your children AND your lives else you and everyone else will either live in slavery or die trying to gain your freedoms again.

PyraBang for Liberty

The truth is always the best place to start

and truth is GM is going to fail no matter what. The companies liabilities are growing a pace that is much faster then any hopes for revenue growth. For ever worker GM has today they are paying pensions and health care for 2.5 retired workers and that number is just going to go up. Simple economics is that you can not spend more then you make and survive. GM could cut spending with layoffs and downsizing so that the size of its company is in accordance with its needs of production based on demands for its products and use profits to develop new products that have a greater demand. A company should only be as big as the market demands and needs the ability to react to the market. The problem with GM and other US auto makers is that they have liabilities unrelated to the free market. They have to pay 2.5 people not working before they get around to paying 1 person that dose. GM's oldest retiree will be 110 years old this year. The employee worked for GM for 32 years and has been collecting pension and health benefits for 47 years. Some of these problems are the same problems America itself is looking at when they look at Social Security and health care. GM and the US Government promised a benefit when they thought people were going to die at 67 and business and government plans are a mess because people lived longer. If you look at what GM wants 50% of the bailout will go to just benefits programs just for this year. I am sure they will be back next year asking for more. The sad fact is that big business and big government are going to crash because we have been for too long based on the idea that we should give up control of our lives to the people at the top. Lets not worry. Spend your money now because when you retire you will be taken care of. That spending of the money dose grow the economy when the young spenders greatly out number the retired and the retired will die off fast, but when they out number us 2.5 to 1 and health care cost have gone up so much we are Fu@ked and so is GM.

They are globalists

they basically left America hanging on the clothes line..and before it is all over with...gonna leave their employees hanging out too..i feel like it was their doings....bail them out and they'll fail again

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master... George Washington

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master... George Washington

Good question!

1. It is not the proper function of government.
2. If it WAS the proper role of government we should only do it if we can responsibly afford it. We can't.
3. We can't even irresponsibly afford it! (If we had $85 bucks in the bank and had to fund $75 bucks worth of stuff for the upsoming year and the bailout would cost $10 bucks... we should not responsibly do a bailout. Our situationis that we have $0 in the bank, $11,235 bucks promised to folks for other purchases we have made over the years, expected expenses this year of $759 bucks and the bailout would cost $50 bucks! Sorry, no can do!

nice illustration

I like your method of bringing down the numbers to a relatable scale. I think this kind of argument could be very effective for a proper understanding of this budget irresponsibility.

Is this a serious question?

How about this for a good argument? 9 out of 10 Americans didnt want the first bailout. That bailout was an obvious failure so I doubt they will want this bailout either. While we are trying to decide a good argument against another bailout it seems that everyone is forgetting that none of the AMERICAN CITIZENS want any damn bailout and that is argument enough. Maybe if the cowards and traitors in the house start doing what we tell them to do, which everyone seems to keep forgetting is thier DUTY we wont have to come up with any damn argument. There is no good argument. There is only the truth. Wake up America before they put you to sleep for good. Or sit there until they knock on your door. Like it or not, those are your options.

E

Bailout won't help....

Ron Gettlefinger, President of the UAW, says the UAW shouldn't have to renegotiate contracts in order to get a bailout and was opposed to the merger between GM and Chrysler as it would eliminate too many UAW jobs.....um that's the problem. These companies are still sized for a different era in which they had higher market share. They need to shrink further in size than they have thus far even though they have taken measures to that end already. Until the legacy costs per unit mirror those of the foreign automakers, a bailout won't help and the 3 won't be able to survive. The UAW wants its pensions funded by the US taxpayer now. If they arrange a bailout to do that, I sure hope they fund everyone's 401K too since they have lost tons of money also.

"An auto industry bail-out will fail"
www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2008/nov/11/obam...

Geeze where do I start.

Geeze where do I start. DUH!

!"You are a den of vipers. I intend to rout you out and by the Eternal God I will rout you out. If the people only understood the rank injustice of our money and banking system, there would be a revolution before morning." --Andrew Jackson,
1828

“It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds”
-Sam Adams

why would

we bail out companies who refuse, due to business reasons...wink wink..to sell efficient cars here while they sell them in Europe and abroad? Not only that but it was all over the news the other day that GM was opening manufacturing facilities in Russia.... I say effem..let them become a European company and let new car companies that will make efficient/electric/hydrogen/etc...cars take their place.

Die GM!

"Die, GM, Die!"

Great t-shirt.

..................
"The main thing that I learned about conspiracy theory is that conspiracy theorists actually believe in a conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is chaotic..." —Alan Moore

As Usual

jzneff is wrong again. Read this article which states that the bailout of the auto industry will most likely not occur because the votes aren't there! Thank GOD!

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/11/dodd-dems-ca...

_________________________
http://www.jabronitools.com

Welcome to politics

The GOP knows that the Dems need this bailout in the worst way.

George W already made it perfectly clear what the cost will be to buy the GOP's backing of an auto bailout...a trade agreement with Columbia.

This is the GOP holding out to get something...it's a political game and the GOP is using this card as leverage.

GM will get bailed out...the votes will be there.

but

with Amerika's new messiah..I mean president..calling for an auto industry bailout...who knows. I've discovered in the last few years that a president and a pen are pretty dangerous.

Uh...

We're bankrupt? Uh, we'd have to print the money? Uh, it's unconstitutional? Uh, it's just plain stupid?

How do those work?

Heres a good one

WE CANT AFFORD IT

Freedom is another way to God...A corrupt government is a straight way to hell.

I believe in Hope & Change..I Hope the government will Change
Spindale-Rutherford County-North Carolina

Obviously GM can't make decent autos

what happens when companies cannot compete with other *better companies? They go broke, and go out of business.
Have you taken a look at GM cars lately? They are complete garbage. No wonder they are bankrupt. US automaker's quality has gone to shit in the past 20 years, and they haven't come up with new innovations. Toyota dominates for a reason

Think for yourself, question authority

Your quality comment needs an update

Saying US automakers' quality has gone down in the past 20 years would have been a true statement a few years ago. Apparently you haven't heard that US brands are catching up. There also are lots of new models that are not "complete garbage." The Saturn Aura and Chevy Malibu, for example, are winning comparison writeups against Honda & Toyota in car mags; Vibe, Mustang, Pontiac's new G8 sedan, Corvette, Caddy CTS & others are among many attractive recent offerings outside the SUV/truck segment in which the Detroit 3 always have done well.

Even Toyota has suffered in sales for the past several months, so please don't hold them up as a bastion of perfection. Their quality ratings have slipped too, while US brands are moving up. Ford and Chevy are mentioned as such in this 2008 JD Power report:

http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease....

How about this...

The void left by the demise of Ford & GM would cause a dozen start-up car companies with new ideas and new designs to finally see the light of day. The failure of the big auto makers does not mean we will no longer make cars just like the failure of a dairy farm wouldn't mean we would stop drinking milk.

There is no such thing as 'too big to fail'. There is only 'too weak to keep alive'.

I may not know the truth, but I know when I'm being lied to...

I may not know the truth, but I know when I'm being lied to...

No kidding. Why don't these

No kidding. Why don't these morons mention the fact that one of the most innovative car companies in the world right now is an American start-up... Tesla Motors. It's not saddled with generations-old labor "agreements" and obligations that harm their competitiveness. GM, Ford... your 'ship' has sailed.

..................
"The main thing that I learned about conspiracy theory is that conspiracy theorists actually believe in a conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is chaotic..." —Alan Moore

Going..going..gone

Time to move on.These mammoths have become a huge liability. Over the last 20 years they made their money not by selling a good product,but mostly by selling gimmicks,financial trickery and maneuvering their tax dues.

Here's an example of what the auto companies USED to be

Private company, forward-thinking, pure genius = no government intervention/regulations/subsidies, ergo no fat cat CEO's with political ties. No running to big Gov with their hands out:

"MANCHESTER – The same day that Ford and General Motors announced catastrophic third-quarter losses, Dean Kamen was showing off his new electric car..."
More in the Union Leader: http://tinyurl.com/6ck66y

GM should file for

GM should file for bankruptcy and buy Kamen out.

..................
"The main thing that I learned about conspiracy theory is that conspiracy theorists actually believe in a conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is chaotic..." —Alan Moore

see now..

that's what I'm talking about...new car companies to take the place of the bloated dead dreams....

to quote Jeffrey Miron

"Bankruptcy means that shareholders typically get wiped out and the creditors own the company.

Bankruptcy does not mean the company disappears; it is just owned by someone new (as has occurred with several airlines). Bankruptcy punishes those who took excessive risks while preserving those aspects of a businesses that remain profitable.

In contrast, a bailout transfers enormous wealth from taxpayers to those who knowingly engaged in risky decision making."

Where Do I start...

1) They are bloated over sized behemoths that has lived off the public (in many countries) allowing them to maintain dominance for years

2) They are asking for multiple years worth of sales in their bailouts between Canada and US governments

3) These sloth based unionist jobs need to be purged from our society - people do not deserve to be payed $40/hr to push a button

4) This intervention once again limits competition and future technological progression

5) Not taxing our Grand Children for a poorly run (formerly the world largest) multinational corporations

6) Not supporting companies that invented "planned obselesence" and then gets upset when people can't afford to buy a new vehicle every 4 years

7) Not support the military industrial complex

8) How many billions have been given in years past - will they ever stop asking?

8)These companies are not financial institutions (although some subsiduaries are) as is expressly written in the "bailout bill"

9) The people of the US can build a better company - with their own money and benefit from it as opposed to Government suggest that there might be a ROI

10) Nobody ever seems to get fired from these firm that get money. Shouldn't someone get fired for having lost so much money that they have to go begging to Government

Shall I continue??? 8]

www.umake.it - The online forum where people help people live within their means

You forgot the obvious reason...

...most of their vehicles are plain-jane and suck.

GM's first hybrid, the Sivlerado, got the same MPG as the regular gas-engine model, but cost $2K more.

NOBODY has hybridized a minivan yet, which is the FIRST place it should have been done--a soccer mom hauling everybody and everything getting 50MPG in town is a big break for a family. (Honda claims next year, but I'm not holding my breath. Chrysler has unveiled a prototype Town and Country electric MV, but that won't work well either because the C/O ratio, like all pure electric vehicles, is terrible!)

Flex-fuel conversions cost $100 per car and allow operation on ethanol and methanol mixed with gas to vastly improve mileage and operating costs, and they do this for Brazil, but not here?

Ford got their hybrid technology from Toyota, and all they're done is stick it on the too-small Escape SUV, instead of on the Taurus X, which can actually haul things and people.

GM hybridized the Yukon SUV, but the mileage is no better than a regular Ford Expedition. They pioneered cylinder-reduction technology back in the 80s but abandoned it because they tried to take a V8 to a V6 and to a 4-cylinder and it didn't work, instead of dropping the V6 middle and having it work, which Toyota and Ford do now. And, of course, there's the EV-1, and the Volt is junk. Meanwhile Toyota is putting solar cells on the Pruis roof to recharge the batteries and power the electrical system...

The Big 3 turned down requests for chassis for Tesla Motors, so they went with Lotus for their Roadster. Tesla may still get the electric sedan out in 2009.

I could go on, but you get the point: they continually shoot themselves in the technological foot.

A car is a mircocosm example of energy problems. Far too many are stuck on one and only one source of energy, petro, and that's the issue, and the automakers, all of them save Toyota, seem to be stuck in Park on improving fuel versatility.

The first manufacturer that makes a hybrid, flex-fuel wagon that seats seven and gets at least 40MPG will take over the automotive world.