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What are the good arguments for not bailing out the auto companies?

An argument that may be able to change a few people's minds.



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Assets don't disappear

Other, more sound, more prudent, leaner, meaner entities will buy the productive assets and we will have a more efficient economy. Propping up a dead horse is a terrible waste of resources.
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Absolutely

I tried to say the same thing below, but with too many words. Nicely said.

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GM should go bankrupt

GM should go bankrupt because it will allow them to re-negotiate their union contracts and *that* is the real reason GM is failing. They pay par too much in past pension and labor costs.

Several of the Casio's in Las Vegas are going bankrupt too and they actually do more business than GM, should we also bail them out too? No nobody would ever think of bailing them out.. but somehow GM is diffrent? Why?

GM and the other auto manufactures can't even take advantage of good technology when they find it. They are trying to suppress information about a American SUV that gets 150 MPG, made by AFS Trinity in Washington State.

http://www.matternetwork.com/2008/11/plug-pulled-plug-suv-la...

"The suppression by the automakers of information about technologies such as this raises serious questions about the judgment, vision, intentions and capabilities of the leadership of these companies," said Edward W. Furia, Chairman and CEO of AFS Trinity, in a press release.

I mean if they can't pull their head out of their ass and take advantage of that then let them tank, it will be better for everyone in the end anyhow.

That's easy

How many of us have been fucked by car companies and their finance companies?? Bought a car that was never right? Had a car repossessed? Had your loan amount changed before you signed final loan app? Been lied to by shady salesmen??

Let them bleed I say. Put the money to good use bailing out American farmers who are going under.

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*Bah* I'm too tired to be witty.

Stupid is the new sexy -- me.

www.thepurplegypsy.com

************************************
*Bah* I'm too tired to be witty.

Stupid is the new sexy -- me.

When the rapture happens - can I have your car?

www.thepurplegypsy.com

No to bailouts and subsidies

I live in a rural area. Farm subsidies are a big interest to me.

http://www.heritage.org/research/agriculture/bg2043.cfm
" * Farm subsidies are intended to alleviate farmer poverty, but the majority of subsidies go to com­mercial farms with average incomes of $200,000 and net worths of nearly $2 million.

* Farm subsidies are intended to raise farmer incomes by remedying low crop prices. Instead, they promote overproduction and therefore lower prices further.

* Farm subsidies are intended to help struggling family farmers. Instead, they harm them by exclud­ing them from most subsidies, financing the con­solidation of family farms, and raising land values to levels that prevent young people from entering farming.

* Farm subsidies are intended to be consumer-friendly and taxpayer-friendly. Instead, they cost Americans billions each year in higher taxes and higher food costs.

Lawmakers would be hard-pressed to enact a set of policies that are more destructive to farmers, taxpay­ers, and consumers than the current farm policies. For these and other reasons, organizations represent­ing taxpayers, consumers, environmentalists, inter­national trade, Third World countries, and even farmers themselves have united around the shared conclusion that the current farm subsidy system is failing and in dire need of reform during this year's reauthorization."

I am also opposed to corn ethanol subsidies. Let the free market work.

Because

it would make more sense to bail out Hyundai if it came to that because Hyundai will create more jobs in America because of it.

It's not a reason, but it chips at the mortar of the brick wall you are talking to when a person's reasons for wanting the bailout include the impression that GM is somehow related to our patriotic identity.

Edit: I'm not sure it would be accurate for me to imply that the patriotic identity issue is nothing more than an impression, but my intention is to refocus the argument on what actions will or will not accomplish for Americans, not just abstract concepts like identity.

Defend Liberty!

Here's a novel one

Fortune Favors the Bold

we don't really need more cars. There are too many cars as it is.

Fortune Favors the Bold

GM will still fail with

GM will still fail with money from the bailout. Why? Because no one is going to plop down cash for those cars. Nor can most get financing now. So either way they will fall.

That's ridiculous. Don't

That's ridiculous. Don't believe the news, you (if you credit is not entirely terrible) can go and get a loan for just about any kind of car you can afford.

The government if full of crap when they say credit is not available. Look at all the loan ad's out there.. those companies would not have those out if they couldn't offer credit. Indeed they very well can.

Pink slips?

The credit my be available, but who knows if you will be working long enough to pay it off.
All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. Thomas Jefferson

All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent. Thomas Jefferson

You aren't going to find a good one

You aren't going to convince this country that we should let GM fail. Sorry, but you're talking to a brick wall here.

They will bail out GM, count on it.

Especially the dems. They

Especially the dems. They are dependent on states where people vote the union card.

Annoys me that the GOP can't look far enough ahead to see that while letting Big3 fail may cost them in the short run, the longer term effect of 'breaking the unions' in the lake states could prove hugely beneficial for them.

Good point

Never thought of it that way. Strategically it would be good, but if anyone in the media got wind of it they would say the Republicans purposefully destroyed the big three to help them in elections. Some Americans might even believe that.

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What are the good arguments for me not sawing off the top of

my head, and the proceeding to scramble up my brains with a stick?

I'm sorry I couldn't help it, I have been trying to not say that since I first read this thread.

I see where your coming from though, you want to have an argument to convince folks that just don't know any better. The vast number of Americans see nothing wrong with any of this in the end, as long as they "get theirs". I would go back in history and explain to the person that this is not what we are supposed to be about. That through government and the feds intervention into the economy and private lives of the citizens, that they caused this mess. And a large part of me thinks it was done on purpose, to open us up to even more intervention and confiscation.

I would bring up that we all have the natural right to succeed in business or to fail miserably. And, if we pawn off our failures onto others that infringes upon their natural rights. Just because one person or group fails that does not make it right to require all other people or groups to fall down the ladder to the failures level. Just as when a person or group is successful, all the ones that didn't do anything to contribute have no right to that success.

Thank you Dr. Paul for making me act on what I already knew was right.

*May the only ones to touch your junk, be the ones you want to touch your junk.*

Strategically, from a pro

Strategically, from a pro individual liberty point of view, one nice side effect of letting the Big3 fail, is that it would dramatically weaken the stranglehold big labor and big corporations have on lake state electorates.

With all these, often highly qualified, workers needing to find jobs, they would soon realize rigid labor laws created to perpetuate the 'big business negotiating with big labor over your salary and benefits' model is not exactly luring in employers, nor is it making it easier to start up on your own.

That comes in addition to all the economic, moral and philosophical reasons posted by others, of course.

Why not ask the Unions to baill out the "big 3"??

They have more than enough money... or perhaps they realize what a crappy investment it would be as well. 8]

www.umake.it - The online forum where people help people live within their means

A few I've heard...

- GM is the biggest car-maker in the world. If it isn't profitable, it's time to tighten the belt, not ask for free money from Americans. (cut back operations)
- When companies that are losing money go out of business, their assets are sold to companies that are making money. So cars keep getting built, just under new management. In effect, you are replacing incompetent management that loses money with good management that knows how to make money.
- Rewarding failure with free money doesn't make sense.
- The fact is, in a true free market I don't think you would have these massive behemoths. You would have lots of smaller companies making cars, so losing one here and one there does not devastate a country. But the government has encouraged these monsters and it is painful to lose such a massive company. Maybe the assets will go to form many smaller car companies (one specializing in trucks, one in compacts, one with electric cars, etc..) which sets things up for a better future.

A call for deregulation can go along with this topic, because regulations make it very hard for companies (especially new ones) to operate. Notice the USA hasn't had a new car company for like a century?

Register as Republican and Vote for Ron Paul

The best reason...

we don't have the money.

Here here

www.umake.it - The online forum where people help people live within their means

Automakers bail out??

One reason is who can afford to buy a new car on credit? the car lots here in NC are full and they are not selling many cars, if any, so why build more cars, and I feel we should not bail out any company, including banks, Wall Street, like one of the posters said, "Who is next, the farmers". As Dr. Paul says, let the markets correct themselves, and if they need to declare they are bankrupt, then they can rebuild and hopefully make better decisions the next time around.

Small businesses...

such as those in the auto repair industry would prosper, and possibly not have to close their doors if these big Auto Companies went under, and not saved by our government via our tax dollars. Small businesses would thrive with work, and it would also stop people from going into debt with new vehicles, and not living beyond their means as they have been. Most reputable vehicle repair shops offer better quality work, and lower prices to consumers needing repairs on their vehicles, seriously!!!!! I see so many small businesses that have closed due to no fault of their own, and I am talking about businesses that have been around for a long time, and have been prudent with their finances. Obama says he wants to rebuild our Country from the bottom up (He stated that is what America was built on), well if that is the case, he should start at the bottom with the small businesses, and not at the top with the big Corporations, that is my thought. If any of you know Obama supporters, or are Obama supporters please pass that on to the new elected President. My second argument would be simply that we the American taxpayers can no longer afford to throw our hard earned money to poorly run businesses, no matter how big they are, it is time for them to take their lumps, like everyone else.

Exodus 20:15?

For my theist friends of the Xian and Judaic persuasions, is not the Mosaic injunction against theft sufficient argument?

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Gee, I don't know...

What were the good arguments for not "bailing out" Enron and WorldCom?

The government "bailed-out" Chrysler in 1980, now they're back looking for another hand out? How did that first "bailout" work out in retrospect?

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"An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it. Truth stands, even if there be no public support. It is self sustained." -Mahatma Gandhi

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"...a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people." -John F. Kennedy

im just having such a hard time getting into the details of this

The economists all look like doctors surrounding a man who is being stabbed to death and discussing possible treatments. I get the idea that problem-solving is futile- I sense that these crises are deliberate.

Selfishness

My argument for a bailout is simply to buy me and my family more time. Once these companies go under, and I believe it is inevitable, I will be out of a job, forced into bankruptcy, lose my home and join the already millions of unemployed homeless in this country. I'm not quite ready for that yet. The situation that we find ourselves in today is the consequence of a global agenda and it is a vast conspiracy. This is a part of the setting up of the infrastructure of a global society. NAFTA and other trade agreements paved the road for where we are today. If you can't hear that "sucking sound" that Ross Perot spoke of well then you must be deaf. The emergence of foreign Auto-Companies when there is only a limited market-share caused the need for the "Big 3" to downsize and this was certainly predictable. There isn't room enough in the market for all the auto companies to exist the way they are. The market will determine who will survive. Eventually the jobs will come back. We will be working for food then much like the Chinese are today. Unless a new currency is issued we may even make $200,000 per year wages, but with bread costing $200 dollars per loaf. This country was built around the auto-industry. Manufacturing is the bottom rung on the economic ladder along with farming and mining. This remains true whether we have an economy of a nation-state or a global economy. As we witness this economic bubble bursting I think it's important to use the time we have before it completely deflates to prepare and educate. The people engineering this have their own ideas about what kind of global governance we will be living under and it isn't based on individual liberty and freedom. Theirs is a collectivist idea more resembling of Plato's "Republic" than Thomas Paine's "The Rights of Man." I don't think we will see this battle won in our lifetime. It will be up to our children and theirs to keep the idea of freedom and liberty alive. It is our job to pay attention and make sure the true history gets written so that our children will know the dangers of collectivism and how it is possible that so many people can be controlled by so few. I know we will eventually win. I know this because it is human nature to be free and independent. To me this is what life is about. It isn't about being free, it's about the fight to be free.

http://RevolutionaryPolitics.com

Bailing Out the Auto Companies

As someone whose very livelihood depends on the survival of the auto industry (fortunately, my house is paid for, but I still have a family to support), I would like to state why I categorically oppose these proposed government loans to the auto industry (yes, they are loans, not a "bailout" as the title of the initial post has indicated. There is an expecation of repayment, unlike the banks who don't have to repay a cent). The problems of the auto industry are not totally self-inflicted as all who like to keep buying foreign automobiles like to tell yourselves so you don't have to feel guilty about putting your countrymen out of job. Yes, the unions have (had?) become too big and too powerful. Yes, there were union memebers who didn't work; but please tell me how many people sit around your office chit-chatting all day or going to meeting upon meeting and still don't feel bad about collecting a paycheck? Yes, the management was slow to respond the threat from the foreign automakers back in the 70s and 80s, but that's not the bulk of the problem. The bulk of the problem is dollar mercantilism, driven by this government's insatiable demand for borrowed cash (starting, I hate to say it, during the Reagan adminstration and continuing today). The influx of foreign funds allows us to continue to run year after year trade deficits, and unless this issue is addressed, these loans are NOT going to solve the problem. For a good treatment of this issue, please read "Trading Away our Future: How to Fix Our Government-Driven Trade Deficits and Faulty Tax System Before it's Too Late ", by Raymond, Howard and Jesse Richman. They show how we need to return to a system of balanced trade that will ultimately address these trade deficits and revive our manufacturing base.

A few strings attached?

I certainly do not believe there should be a bailout of any corporation. But, should we the people begin buying stakes in these behemoths we should have a few strings attached.

1) Within one year of receiving any bailout all vehicles sold by said
company must get 100 mpg.

2)Quality of vehicles must increase--longer warranties--no more
engineered obsolescence.

3)All automakers getting bailout money need to be selling alternative fuel
(no gas) vehicles in X number of years.

4)Every dollar must be accounted for.

Im sure there are many more strings that can be attached but these are a few for starters.

Humans for Ron Paul !

because they have failed to offer alternatives for 100 years

Ford's original car ran on alcohol. They have had the technology to free us from oil since the FIRST car.
Now GMC has the patent to a magnetic motor they SIT ON - youtube it. HHO boosters are being put on my shade tree mechanics all over the world, why can't the auto industry offer them?

Truth exists, and it deserves to be cherished.

I know it's crazy, but...

Here's an idea. People should only buy cars when they have enough money to pay for them.
Until then walk, take a bus or hitch a ride and share the cost of gasoline.
grant

I read years ago that the GM auto workers health insurance

HYDROMAN
plan was the largest single yearly purchaser of Viagra . 16 million $ that particular year.

It is hard to imagine a more stupid or more dangerous way of making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people that pay no price for being wrong.
Thomas Sowell