Complete list of poor nations that adopted gov't socialism & became prosperous:

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There are no such nations, to my knowledge. If you know of one, please let us know in a comment.

On the other hand, there are plenty of rich nations that began socialist policies and then became poorer. The USA is an obvious recent example.

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China isn't politically or socially free at all.

But the standard of living there has increased dramatically in the last 20 years since Deng reversed the bulk of Mao's economic policies.

Ron Paul has gone on record as saying that it is easier to start a small business in China than in the USA. I dare say that the same is true of Europe.

The credit crisis is causing hardship and unemployment in China - but the government is planning to use its massive accumulated reserves to get over the hump.

My point is that not all collectivists are the same.

http://www.mises.org/Books/mysteryofbanking.pdf

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.pdf

Fluoride anyone?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=0he-LZNzVg0&feature=related

Politically, not so much.

Politically, not so much. Socially, perhaps.

Ask a Chinese person next time. Every time I've gone there, their quality of life and attitudes have changed radically over the years... and in my case, we're talking about a mere eight years.
.................
Truther?
No, sir!
.................
http://libertarianwiki.org/

..................
"The main thing that I learned about conspiracy theory is that conspiracy theorists actually believe in a conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is chaotic..." —Alan Moore

Nazi Economic Miracle?

dan3745,

You cite a good example, in that their was an **appearance** of prosperity in Nazi Germany. The substance was a different story.

I think that a closer reading into Hitler's finances will show that from the beginning, Hitler was financed by many, mostly Americans esp Henry Ford, and the American Banking (the big cheeses at the Fed) interests. Also the closing of the Gold window to Americans but not foreigners was a policy, instituted by FDR, that allowed the parasitical tyranny of Hitler to finance "prosperity". The average German did well only in comparison to the horrendous impositions of the Versailles Treaty, which left the once proud Germans on their knees and destitute. The "prosperity" benefited the war machine (as you pointed out). There were other factors too in that temporarily Germans were allowed to function in some sense economically, again, temporarily.

It is a common misconception that there was a "Nazi Economic Miracle". Tyranny does not work!! Tyrannies are parasitical, all of them, either on the people, or on those who they conquer, if they can. It is a mistake to believe that tyranny ever produces prosperity. The incentive is reversed and supply & demand is twisted and distorted. It simply cannot work.

It is one thing to put a lot of people to work building their own destruction, and quite another to build prosperity.

I hope that you will read more of the history of Nazi finances to understand that appearance does not equal substance.

the nazi economic miracle

Fortune Favors the Bold

was stealing from the Jews before they killed them

Fortune Favors the Bold

You are both right

the Nazi economic miracle was largely due to credit expansion too. Simplified: Germany had to conquer and exploit other countries to sustain its wealth.

Fellowship of the White Rose

Ron Paul was right

Bingo.

Four ways to get out of government debt:

1. Repudiate.

The Russian bolsheviks did this in 1917.

2. Plunder.

This is where war and conquest comes in.

3. Inflate.

Sound familiar?

4. Tax.

Ouch!

http://www.mises.org/Books/mysteryofbanking.pdf

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.pdf

Fluoride anyone?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=0he-LZNzVg0&feature=related

Switzerland is not socialist.

Cameron_DeHart,

Having been there means nothing if you cannot understand and use definitions. Switzerland is hardly socialist. I have noticed that a lot of people go on "impressions", like "Sw"itzerland and "Sw"eden both start with "Sw" so they get confused as to which is which.

For you to say that Switzerland is socialist betrays that you do not know what socialism is, nor do you understand much at all about Switzerland. You have a lot of company, but truth is not determined by a majority vote.

I will not give up by force or coersion to

Freedom is not FREE!!

anything. What I will do is work to free mens minds from all beliefs that they must do ANYTHING that goes along with taking from one individual and giving to another without asking and it being given freely. . Why should I be forced to do anything not in the best interest of what I as an individual believes.

Freedom is not FREE!!

There is one nation that prospered due to socialism.....

Ever heard of the "Nazi economic miracle"? Hitler's bigtime spending on defense and other strong arm methods ended the Great Depression in Germany. They got a jump on the economic boost from WWII. Socialism needs wars, they keep the government big enough to employ half of the people.

War- another reason that socialism sucks.

Nazi Germany wasn't socialist

but fascist, saying it was collectivistic/egalitarian (for those of Aryan race) but private property was accepted.
Hitler used socialist rhetoric to appeal to workers but in fact he allied with big banks and companies who made huge profits in taking part in the exploitation of Jewish and other unwanted groups (corporate capitalism). Having said this, large parts of the German welfare system were build up during the Nazi period, and during the war central economical planning to safeguard the 'final victory' was predominant. The economical success of the Nazi regime is a bit more complicated as being outlined with "getting a jump on the economic boost from WWII." The regime was installed in 1933; the war started in 1939. For instance the initial boost for the economy (that ended mass unemploment and thereby made Hitler really popular) was apparently less caused by Hitler's decrees but by the economical cycle and the measures taken by the last "civil" (though unelected) Brüning administration http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Br%C3%BCning .

Generally speaking the usage of the term 'socialist' in this thread is rather blurred. As far as I see most people mix up socialism with collectivism and economical freedom with individual liberty.

Fellowship of the White Rose

Ron Paul was right

If you define socialism

as a "negation of capitalism and its prize system" as v.Mises does according to the speaker in this video you have also to include the mercantilism of the 18th century or the allied regime after occupation of Germany post WW II because they knew prize and supply control too.
In the end you may label political and economical systems as you like, but it doesn't help in a political discusssion to put Mao's China, the English welfare system of the 70's, mercantilism, the EU and East Germany before 1989 into the same pidgeon-hole. People who don't know v.Mise's definition won't simply understand you.
On a sideline: I'm aware of and agree with the libertarian concept, that fascism and socialism aren't opposed extremes but are on the totalitarian side of the political spectrum opposed to a state of unrestrained personal and economical freedom on the other side. But nevertheless it is important to be aware and label the differences between systems that don't know neither (like China under Mao) that restricted political and econmical freedom for the benefit of certain groups (like fascism), systems that have economical but not personal freedom (hard to think of, perhabs nowadays China) and those systems that have personal liberty but no or restricted economical liberty (like the EU-states).

Fellowship of the White Rose

Ron Paul was right

Hahaha

"In the end you may label political and economical systems as you like, but it doesn't help in a political discusssion to put Mao's China, the English welfare system of the 70's, mercantilism, the EU and East Germany before 1989 into the same pidgeon-hole. People who don't know v.Mise's definition won't simply understand you."

It is the truth. They are ALL COLLECTIVIST.

What is the problem? Very slight differences in style, but it is the SAME shit.

Here, I'll DUMB it down for you with an analogy.

Collectivism = a t shirt.
All the "differing" labels, and attempts to describe the difference in shirt COLORS.... this one is blue, red, green... whatever.

In the end, it is STILL a t-shirt no matter what you label it, or whatever color it appears as.

Get with the program and get over your flawed concept. :)

Conza88. I usually agree with you. Not this time.

If you want to convert people to the cause of economic, political and social liberty you will get absolutelty NOWHERE if you just lump them in with everyone else you don't like.

Let's assume you are talking to young Obama supporter. How would you convince him that he is wrong?

By lumping him in with Joseph Stalin, John McCain and the Ku Klux Klan? Good luck with that! LOL.

It would be alot wiser to LISTEN to him carefully, address his concerns and cast doubt on his political premises.

http://www.mises.org/Books/mysteryofbanking.pdf

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.pdf

Fluoride anyone?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=0he-LZNzVg0&feature=related

BS strawman..

Have I ever insinuated that? Or ever suggested such a thing? Hahah.. please quote me. Please.

Non sequitur = latin for "it does not follow"

;)

It DOES FOLLOW from your premise. IT IS your premise.

If your premise is A, I can logically draw the most trivial of conclusions from it. Namely, A.

How is that a "non sequitur"?

http://www.mises.org/Books/mysteryofbanking.pdf

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.pdf

Fluoride anyone?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=0he-LZNzVg0&feature=related

Nope. Wrong.

My premise is A = fascism and communism are both collectivist.

They are two wings of the SAME BIRD. Left wing (Communist) Right wing (Fascist)... that simple enough for you? They are both collectivist.

That's the truth. It is the false left / right paradigm. The way you destroy it, is by rejecting its esoteric agenda... and highlighting the fallacy for what it is.

If you continue to argue within its model, you will FAIL forever. Understand?

The thing is you have then gone on to assume the erroneous conclusion; that I am unable to present it logically, or that people will not be able to understand. This is what you said:

"If you want to convert people to the cause of economic, political and social liberty you will get absolutelty NOWHERE if you just lump them in with everyone else you don't like."

Fail. YOU will get absolutely no where if you continue to argue within the left right paradigm.

Now - you hold the notion:

"Let's assume you are talking to young Obama supporter. How would you convince him that he is wrong? By lumping him in with Joseph Stalin, John McCain and the Ku Klux Klan? Good luck with that! LOL.
It would be alot wiser to LISTEN to him carefully, address his concerns and cast doubt on his political premises."

HERE is a video on my yt channel; it is called HOW TO SELL LIBERTY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_shEnY_lcQI

3 part series. I suggest you watch it ;) Your conclusion does not follow at all.

Right here conza...

"It is the truth. They are ALL COLLECTIVIST.

What is the problem? Very slight differences in style, but it is the SAME shit."

Very slight differences in style? WTF?

Modern day America and Europe leave alot to be desired but I don't think a holocaust survivor would call it a "slight difference in style".

You go on to say:

"Here, I'll DUMB it down for you with an analogy.

Collectivism = a t shirt.
All the "differing" labels, and attempts to describe the difference in shirt COLORS.... this one is blue, red, green... whatever.

In the end, it is STILL a t-shirt no matter what you label it, or whatever color it appears as.

Get with the program and get over your flawed concept. :)"

Ron Paul makes DISTINCTIONS between communism and facism. You don't. He did that with reference to the bailout. For a reason.

Ron Paul makes DISTINCTIONS between John McCain and Barack Obama's support base. You don't!

Ron Paul is humble, friendly and persuasive. Try emulating that.

http://www.mises.org/Books/mysteryofbanking.pdf

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.pdf

Fluoride anyone?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=0he-LZNzVg0&feature=related

Tsk tsk.

"Very slight differences in style? WTF?

Modern day America and Europe leave alot to be desired but I don't think a holocaust survivor would call it a "slight difference in style"."

Differences in style - YES... in their USE OF FORCE.. I'm sure someone in Auswhitz (Nazi Germany - fascism), and someone in the Gulags (Soviet Union) - would agree, THERE AIN"T MUCH DIFFERENCE!

Here is some homework:

Proper Role of Government (StopandLook production)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvhKOsn-0AY

"Ron Paul makes DISTINCTIONS between communism and facism. You don't. He did that with reference to the bailout. For a reason. Ron Paul makes DISTINCTIONS between John McCain and Barack Obama's support base. You don't! "

Absolutely wrong. You are profoundly ignorant of my position. Don't put words in my mouth, or misinterpret me.

There are slight differences / distinctions - I HAVE stated that. Well then, you say I don't make any - I DO... Haha.

Yes, there is a difference between John McCains support base and barack obama's... some pretend to support free markets and war, the others pretend to be against the war and against free markets... As for the candidates:

- Barack Obama: INTERNATIONAL socialist (marxist)
- John McCain: NATIONAL socialist (fascist)

I'm sorry, there are 5 letters of difference >.< You were saying?

Acutally, National

Acutally, National Socialism, along with Marxism, Leninism, Maoist, Trotskites and Fabians are all from the same Socialist root. One very interesting fact is while the Nazis were very anti-communist, they, along with the Marxist Communist both accepted Fabian Socialism.

http://www.1776solution.blogspot.com

I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue. Barry Goldwater

http://militantjeffersonian.com

"Men do not willingly read unpalatable truths of themselves. The People like those best who fool them most, by pandering to their vices and flattering their foibles" Raphael Semmes

You literally have NO idea what you are talking about.

The Nazi party was called; the National SOCIALIST party...

National Socialism = fascism aka corporatism
International Socialism = marxism aka communism

"Private property was accepted" ? ahaha.. that is irrelevent, because there is PUBLIC ownership of the means of production - that is socialism.

"Generally speaking the usage of the term 'socialist' in this thread is rather blurred. As far as I see most people mix up socialism with collectivism and economical freedom with individual liberty."

No, your understanding of it is. Socialism = IS collectivism. And COLLECTIVISM is TOTALITARIANISM.. Btw, that isn't just some nice little slogan, I can give you the proof a priori if you are unable to reason it yourseld.

Economic freedom IS succinct with individual liberty.

Wow... you've got a lot of learning to do mate.

Conza

Why don't you just state your case without being belligerent?

Sorry,

you are wrong on some facts and on logic.

The means of production in Nazi Germany weren't publicly owned.
The Nazis took great care to make even the de facto confiscation of Jewish property look "free market", since they didn't nationalize it, but forced the Jewish owners to offer it for sale. Of course these were most the times bargains for Nazi cronies, but it was still private property.
Even those industries that took part in the war effort and the industrial killing of unwanted groups were privately owned and had strong links to international financial groups (that financed Hitler's rise to power - do some research on Prescott Bush or see the history of the FORD compagnie in Germany - no CT).

You fall prey to the self-labeled name National SOCIALIST German Worker's Party
There was no specific ideology behind the Party when Hitler joined the DAP (German Worker's Party) in 1920 as party member 555 (properly No 55). The founders resented the new republic but as well the old aristocratic upper-class establishment. If you see the 25-points programm of 1920 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Program you may say it contained some socialist elements, but you should also notice, that Hitler later soon disallowed any discussion of this programme and hoped it will be forgotten. Of course the name appealed to workers and 'petite bourgeois' who otherwise may have voted for communist or socialist party. But all that was left of socialism in the pre-war Nazi Germany was a strong sense of egalitarianism (for true-bred German's) and denialof individualism ('You are nothing, your people is everything). After the outbreak of war central-planing of the economy became more and more important, but you can see this also for the economies of the UK and the US, that were 'coordinated' for the benefit of the war effort.

Your definition comes down to Socialism=Corporatism=Fascism=Communism0Totalitarianism

That goes back to the understanding that the extremes of the political spectre are not communism on the left v. fascism on the right, but a free society v. totalitarism. But it doesn't help to throw them together under the label totalitarism. Of course it is a factual big difference between a system where open opposition and dissent is largely possible (like in the states of the EU) or where it may be followed by certain death (like in Hitler's Germany).

Fellowship of the White Rose

Ron Paul was right

Well said my friend.

If Ron Paul himself is at pains to point out distinctions between his opponents - we would do well to follow suit.

Ron Paul suggested that Obama supporters would be more likely to listen to the freedom message than John McCain supporters.

Why is that? Maybe he is onto something?

Ron Paul also fielded a "socialism" question from a reporter about the Bailout. He explained that the bailout was...

...CLOSER TO FASCISM than "sweetheart communism".

His reference to "sweetheart communism" is very telling. A European would know exactly what he meant by that!

Ron Paul knows his history and he knows his enemies very well.

http://www.mises.org/Books/mysteryofbanking.pdf

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.pdf

Fluoride anyone?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=0he-LZNzVg0&feature=related

Thank you, Brit,

The more worrying aspect of this discussion is that conza88 appears not to see that there are political systems that offer economical freedom but not personal freedom. Nazi Germany offered perhabs more economical freedom and chances for entrepreneurship than nowadays Germany, i you were 'Aryan' and didn't openly oppose the regime. Look at the story of the famous Oskar Schindler http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Schindler. The same you may say about Singapore or the PR of China (though I don't know this countries).
I think the message of Ron Paul is that a society of free people guarentees economical as well as personal freedom. I'am sure he is very much aware that there is a difference beween fascist and socialist collectivism and that the US is more endangered to become fascist than socialist.

Fellowship of the White Rose

Ron Paul was right

If conza88 was right, Obama supporters would go to KKK rallies.

Of course, Obama supporters don't go to Klan rallies - unless they want to protest against them.

Collectivists don't come out of a cookie cutter!

http://www.mises.org/Books/mysteryofbanking.pdf

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.pdf

Fluoride anyone?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=0he-LZNzVg0&feature=related

According to that theory,

According to that theory, America is the biggest socialist country in the history of man.

Switzerland, Norway, Iceland, Finland, Denmark, and Sweden are largely socialist. They dont need war. And they are arguably more free and prosperous than we are.

As I said

in my comment above, the usage of the term 'socialism' on this thread and generally on the DP is blurred. The European countries you mentioned have in fact a high degree of personal liberty but a low degree of economical liberty (due to overregulation and overtaxation). You may call them socialist insofar there is a general assumption in our political systems that the state has to care that everyone is well-fed, sheltered, healthy and gets the chance for a good education.

Fellowship of the White Rose

Ron Paul was right

greetings Colognep.

Do you really think these European countries have a high degree of personal liberty? What if they want to grow orchids that are on the UN's ban list? What if they want to use corporal punishment to discipline their children? What if they want to home-school their children? What if they want to go shooting (Switzerland excepted)? What if they want to start living on a barter system with other like-minded people? What constitutes their freedom? Of course, if you do exactly as the government or society expects and requires of you, then you are perfectly free to do it.

The real test of freedom is seen in those who stand outside the mainstream of society. I wouldn't say the Europeans have a high degree of personal liberty because they have essentially eliminated anything outside the mainstream.

I'm sorry I haven't had much to write on the dp lately, but it's good to see you're still here.