A great defense of the gold standard!

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The following is a comment posted to an article titled "Was Ron Paul Right About the Gold Standard?" at this link:
http://blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2008/11/was-ron-paul-ri...

It is by far one of the easiest to understand defenses (for those of us whom monetary policy confuses) for returning to the gold standard that I have read lately. Hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

Tom deSabla
November 26, 2008 10:20 AM

There are a lot of misunderstandings here on this board.

First off, the idea that the gold standard did not work is stupid. Of course it worked. For the people. it was and is governments and their apologists who didn't and don't like it because it limits their power.

The most serious economic problems we've had are post fed.

Most of you don't seem to realize the chronology here. We did not "struggle to come up with a financial system that can handle the explosive growth of the modern age ever since the dawn of the Industrial Revolution." Not true at all, we had a system already and it was working perfectly. Prior to WW1, we had a working, stable international system that settled all international currency imbalances in gold. This system supported a huge amount of trade worldwide, and it never required huge amounts of gold to change hands.

Basically, it was self-correcting in that, if a nation were to import too much without producing, it's counterparty nation would simply receive gold FOR THE DIFFERENCE. This need to pay imbalances in gold WAS the discipline that nations needed to prevent them from living beyond their means. It worked just fine, until governments that wanted to war screwed it up.

By that time in history, we weren't on a "pure gold standard" anymore anyway - what we had was a system where Real Bills of exchange were circulating among producers and suppliers of goods. These bills, spontaneously and temporarily ciculating as money, allowed for the expansion and contraction of the money supply as needed, without constantly revaluing gold, and supported all the trade the world needed.

These bills were the precursors to what we now call "commercial paper." Central Banks were not needed to issue, discount, or manage these bills at all. It was largely this aspect of the free market in money and interest rates that Central Banks were instituted to control and then eliminate, and that's exactly what they did do.

Now, fractional reserve banking is theft, but governments allowed it even before we went off the gold standard. This practice, not the gold standard itself, is what led to the runs on banks prior to the fed. Fractional reserve banking is not inherent to the gold standard at all.

As to people losing capital due to a return to the gold standard, this is silly too. If their dollars were to lose value compared to gold or silver, then their dollars were set to lose value against goods and services anyway. Staying with a fiat system IN NO WAY protects anyone's wealth or savings, in fact, it insures that it will be lost.

Everythingwe have done since before WW1, including Bretton Woods, has been done to attempt to replicate the working system we had before with the gold standard and bills of exchange. The only problem is that the system we had EVOLVED and didn't allow for governments to have so much control over money and interest rates. We've been trying to have our cake and eat it too.

The problem is simple - a gold/silver/metallic standard works for the people of the world but is unpalatable for governments that desperately want to grow and control more and more aspects of people's lives. So, they try this and that, hoping to plan a system that is better than the one that evolved - BUT THEY CAN'T.

Now, of course, after so many years have passed, denial is very deep, and many folks do not understand money anymore. First off, what is so bad about a little deflation? We had a mild deflation between 1800 and 1913 - didn't hurt us at all. The dollar actually bought more while the economy steadily grew. That's a good thing. Why people act like it's bad, I don't know. Why people act like such a thing can't happen in our modern economy, I don't know either.

Paper money can't "outstrip" the amount of gold available, because the dollar, or any money for that matter, can simply be revalued relative to gold. Again, this process can't suddenly make the dollar worth less than was going to happen anyway; it simply re establishes the worth of gold to it's proper level.

In any case, as posters have pointed out - there is no need to suddenly institute a forced revaluation by government fiat. All we need to do is legalize competing currencies. Legal tender laws must be abolished.

As to a gold standard being subject to the same human failures as fiat money, such an assertion is ignorant. Pointing out that FDR revalued gold against the dollar, thereby hurting people, proves nothing about the gold standard. Just because a stupid president mucked with the standard and stole the people's gold does not mean that there was something wrong with the standard itself. It merely means that we should never have let him do it.

If FDR had went around killing people, does that mean that laws and morals against murder were useless, just because someone got away with it?

The whole point here is that stealing everyone's gold, and then making sweeping revaluations is much harder than just printing up what you need, and bamboozling a bunch of suckers, which is all they have to do now. Regardless of the fact that there have been revaluations of gold, the fact is that it DOES enforce discipline on government spending and currency issuance. Just go look at a chart of either, and see that there are two big trend changes - a smaller one in 1933, when FDR stole the gold, and a much bigger one, when Nixon reneged on Bretton Woods by refusing foreign dollar holders their promised option to trade their excess dollars in for gold.

The issue is a lot simpler than many of you posters are trying to make it: In order to have a viable and growing economy, the people must be able to save and delay consumption. People must have the proper interest rate information in order to invest in plant and industry that is really needed. As we can plainly see, this current system does not afford these things. In fact, it completely discourages them.

People must have a viable and completely legal means to save, long term. Paper money does not work for this purpose long term, which is why we have no savings as a nation. This alone, is reason enough to re-establish a monetary standard or allow competing currencies.

It is not, and never will be fair, or sustainable, for people to work all week to earn paper money that the government, through central banks, can simply create with no work at all. It is a fundamentally unjust idea, and it has never worked, is not working now, and isn't going to work.

It doesn't matter if you're in the year 1700, 1800, 1900, or 2009, the issues are the same.

Can true capital be created by central banks or governments by a printing press or computer?

NO.

Can a real economy long survive with cheap paper that is created from nothing and backed by nothing, chasing and buying real goods that people sweat and bleed to produce?

No.

In the end, all such systems will collapse, as they must, and people will trade real things, and use real money that has inherent value again, whether statist fools who know nothing about money like it or not.

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"What is so bad about a little deflation?"

"We had a mild deflation between 1800 and 1913 - didn't hurt us at all. The dollar actually bought more while the economy steadily grew. That's a good thing. Why people act like it's bad, I don't know"

Interesting comment. Can somebody tell me what deflation really means? I can't make ends meet by reading wikipedia.

Friedman wrote that "the Fed presided over a decline in the quantity of money by one-third from 1929 to 1933.... Far from the depression being a failure of the free-enterprise system, it was a tragic failure of government."

Is this what is meant by deflation caused by a fiat currency?

What would be an example of a gold-standard type deflation, and what are the ramificaitons of such?

Troy

Try Wikipedia "Deflation" I think you will find your answer there http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflation

I came away with, "Cash is King." (forget gold)

Another way of looking at it...

[troy- Quote] "What would be an example of a gold-standard type deflation, and what are the ramificaitons of such?" [Un-Quote]

I'd be worried more if we were the only ones in that boat ! By the way, we are the boats motor.

Occam's razor : Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS)

Since August 15, 1971, the entire world has been submitted to de facto paper monies. No commodities, not even silver or gold could be used for commercial transactions.

All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best, in the form of a single New World Order fiat money,

"Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem", roughly translated as "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity". An alternative version "Pluralitas non est ponenda sine necessitate" translates "plurality should not be posited without necessity"

All great truths begin as blasphemies !

Stop beating a dead horse

Remember where you heard it first ;)

Huh...

All this angst stirred up in some over what is just a clear explanation of why gold backed money is sound. Don't get where the anger comes from. No one is forcing anyone to agree.
_____________________________

*What you don't know CAN hurt you.*

_____________________________

Defend Liberty, for Liberty
Vote for President Ron Paul 2012
http://ksa4liberty.com

Why a gold-standard though?

Why don't you trust individual freedom (ie. the free-market) to take care of money?
Why do you think we need politicians and bureaucrats?

The gold standard sucks

It is far better than paper money, but that's about as far as I can praise it.


I think Gary North summed it up well:

"The problem is, a government-guaranteed gold standard is guaranteed by the government. As I like to say, a government-guaranteed gold standard isn’t worth the paper it’s written on."

Ksa4liberty, why don't you just trust the free-market to handle money? Why does the gov't need to do it?

so you say

fiat currency sucks

and

commodity money sucks less

what sucks even less then that?

"Free-market money" is where it's at!

That is no control control over money whatsoever. People are free to use whatever they want as money.

Thanks for the reference

I wasn't familiar with Gary North but I will surely read about what he has to say tonight - and some counter-points.

This issue has really made me scratch my head because I think there are many in the move to END the FED who see the demise of the fed as an opportunity to return to "sound money" (commodity backed).

This is a huge point because if we don't replace the fed with something workable, we are wasting our time and setting ourselves up for debates that are inherently flawed by the math.

END the FED before it ENDS US

End the FED and replace it with freedom!

That is, the freedom for each individual to choose themselves what they want to use as money.

Forget a gold backed national currency

I agree with most everything you say, you make a good case for gold. It is much more difficult to inject too much "inflationary" money in the system if the government is disciplined by an actual cost of currency - intrinsic value.

Personally I own gold and recommend that it be part of every investment portfolio, especially now. But, a gold backed national currency will not and cannot work. The problem is that we don't have any gold and we would need many many thousands of Tonnes of gold. Where would you get it? Would you buy it on "credit" - which would then make it a debt based currency? (fiat)

There are around 32,150 Troy Ounces in every Tonne of gold. And, figure that our interest alone on our national debt was over $400 billion dollars last year. At $1,000 / Troy Ounce, we would need over 12,700 Tonnes of gold just to pay our interest -every year, and that number is rising.

Our trade deficit has been over $700 billion a year for the last few years. Again, at $1,000 / Troy Ounce, we would need over 22,000 Tonnes of gold - which would leave our shores, every year.

Over $2 trillion US dollars are currently held by foreign countries in their reserves (China alone holds over $1 trillion). At $1,000 / Troy Ounce; this is equal to around 65,000 Tonnes of gold.

Annually, there are ONLY around 4,000 tonnes of global gold supply, including mining, scrap sales and central banks. See the problem?

Let's add the totals:

12,700 Tonnes for national debt interest - no principle included
22,000 Tonnes for trade deficit
65,000 Tonnes foreign held dollars
_______
99,700 Tonnes total - without backing a penny of any new currency

It just doesn't work and I like to think Ron Paul and others know this as evidenced by the fact that they subtly suggest an additional currency when talking about gold - I suspect a private currency.

Imagine what would happen to trade if we went back to the gold standard. Would we be willing to trade our gold dollars for the fiat dollars everyone else uses? We had a gold standard, the problem was that the French and other "trading partners" were cashing their dollars in - our gold was very quickly vanishing. Nixon HAD to leave the gold standard - our gold was quickly vanishing.

I hope someone can find an error in my thinking because I really wish it was doable. It just won't work with gold and silver - even if you raise the price of gold exponentially.

END the FED before it ENDS US

The flaw in your analysis is that you are trying to work with

a system of preserving current debt.

The proper thing to do is to repudiate all current debt, just wipe it all off the books. Then start fresh. The natural restrictions which take hold on government will ensure that the numbers you speak of never resurface. We won't have that kid of government debt because it won't be possible to spend that amount of money.

Money is a standard of weight, or a measure of a certain substance. It is not an abstract concept. The debts you are speaking of are debts of 'abstract' dollars, not real dollars.

When we speak of 'government guaranteed' standard we simply mean a standard, for example making the government's unit of account as a certain measure and weight of silver. (this is what the Coinage Act of 1792 did) The only other viable alternative would be trade based on ounces and fractional ounces. The problem with a pure market system for coinage is trusting the weight and purity which would be stamped on the coins or bars. Government guarantee of weight and purity helps to create a transition period to facilitate acceptance of such coins. Without it, there would be a prolonged period of fraud as the market learned which minters to trust. With government coins, but allowing private competing coins, the market can have this time to learn trust and for minters to build reputation.

fiat is an invention with

fiat is an invention with out numerical bounds, till it collapses.

you're trying to figure out how much gold it will take to equal the unbounded imaginary fiat number.

it's irrelevant.

Intrisic value? Excuse me...

"Some people speak of the intrinsic value of gold. Whenever you hear anyone say this, you can know for sure that you are dealing with someone who knows nothing about economic theory. There is no such thing as intrinsic value."

-- Gary North

material value

don't argue semantics. it's petty and goes nowhere.

I think it's more than "semantics"

A lot of these people think gold has worth in and of itself (independent of human valuation).

Secondly, are you saying that what they mean by intrinsic value is actually 'material value'?
If it is, they should get their terms straight.

Peter Schiff

says it all the time.

"Tyrants fear nothing more than insubordination"

"It's just one big club... and WE ain't in it!"

He's wrong

Karl Menger revolutionized economics back in 1871 by coming up with the theory of subjective value.

It's embarrassing that Peter can't get it right 200 years later.

Grab a dictionary

Look up the words and the phrase. Yes, it does exist and if it didn't why would anyone buy gold?

END the FED before it ENDS US

Because it has

subjective value!
That's why people buy it.

money has subjective value, gold has more than that

because gold is used in industry. because it has characteristics that no other metal has. there will always be somebody who needs it for something.

It is not the absence of a sufficient amount of gold

that is the problem. It is an overabundance of fiat currency. The very figures you present show the degree of destruction that has been wrought on the currency system by the FED. The US has used its position to force feed our inflation to the rest of the world since 1944. The rest of the world is waking to the fact that the FRN is worthless and they are soon going to give us back that inflation. When they do, there is a MINIMUM 1300% inflation bias that will be coming home from its travels. For the FRN to be equitably valued against gold would require a gold price north of $90,000/oz and this was in August this year before all the bailouts and the increase in monetary supply by 110% since the bailouts began and we are just seeing the tip of the iceberg while the "leaders" of this country are rearranging the deck chairs and the ship of state is the RMS Titantic.

Tell that to the people holding dollars

You totally miss my point...these dollars are already out there!

END the FED before it ENDS US

and you miss the entire point

you try to keep support for a failed monetary system (fiat currency) as a defense against the use of a precious metals monetary system. The two are incompatible and the the fiat system(bad money) will be destroyed. Yes the FRNs are out there and there are way too many of them. Your entire argument is nothing more than a support of the fiction of non existent printing press wealth. The FRN is basically worthless and the rest of the world is catching on to that while the people in this country still cling to the fiction of printing press money. FRNs are still needed at this point because they are still the primary accepted means of exchange for the settlement of debts and for financial transactions IN THIS COUNTRY. That is coming to an end. How long the death convulsions of the FRN (which is not a real dollar and is only the promise of one) will last is any body's guess, but it is on its death bed.

Your problem is solved with the metric system.

Grams.

Ron Paul "Sign Wave Across the USA" -- November 5th!

How do we buy it?

Sure, gold could go up to $1,000 / Gram, or even $1,000 a speck. But even if you were able to buy gold at those prices, where would we get the money?

Would you borrow it?

END the FED before it ENDS US

It wouldn't be $1000/gram

It would be roughly $35/per gram.

A gold-backed currency, whether public or private, could be backed by grams (or grains) of gold.

Silver is what could be referred to is a "daily" metal, not gold. An interesting time in US history were the gold/silver "wars" leading to the writing of the "Wizard of Oz".

Ron Paul "Sign Wave Across the USA" -- November 5th!

Excellent post

Bump for sound money.

Very good short and concise

Very good short and concise explanation!

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