Why We Must Be Pacifist Libertarians
Violence * in order to achieve political goals,* even in self-defense, does not accomplish any political goal whatsoever.
We must not respond * to political action* with violence because it will downgrade the ideals of our cause.
We must be pacifists * in political causes* because it is too easy for those who are opposed to our cause to infiltrate our free-thinking groups and cause problems in social situations.
* We must be absolutely courageous and willing to fight for our chosen political cause on the highest level of our individual human potential.*
The sacrifice of individuals, when witnessed by others, causes a greater number of people to respond against those who do violence to the individuals and causes sympathy for those who the resist violence.
Ron Paul For Peace!
* Parts with a star* Updated 12-03 due to the overwhelming request for clarification; thanks!
Regarding "death ground," as defined by Sun Tzu
"Confront them with annihilation, and they will then survive; plunge them into a deadly situation, and they will then live. When people fall into danger, they are then able to strive for victory." - Sun Tzu
This has also been translated, "put people on death ground and they will live."
What Sun Tzu means by "death ground" is complete encirclement by an enemy that does not take prisoners. Sun Tzu noted that there were cases where a much weaker force prevailed after finding themselves on death ground because they were fighting for their lives. The soldiers surrounding them were poorly motivated, feeling that it was unnecessary to fight very hard in a simple "mopping up" operation. No use risking your life in an operation that will succeed regardless of what you personally do, right?
Sun Tzu concluded that the stronger force should purposefully leave the weaker force an escape route. Then the weaker force will not fight very hard because they will know that there is still a possibility of escaping the encirclement. But escaping does not actually save them because they are then scattered and can easily be chased down and killed one by one. The result is that the whole of the weaker force dies anyway but, in the process of dying, they inflict little damage on the stronger force.
The reason that I bring this up here is that I see many people in this thread saying, "just wait until they give me no choice but to fight, then I'll really kick ass!" But the government will never put you on death ground. They've read Sun Tzu too, you know. There will always be a way out that does not involve violence. One by one you will be asked to forsake your rights, your neighbors and your children, but you will never be forced to fight.
This is what happened in Nazi Germany. It was always possible to escape the latest round-up of Jews. Jews could bribe a Nazi official, they could denounce their neighbor, they could reveal someone's hiding place - there was always a way that did not involve standing and fighting. But in the end the Nazis got them all - some sooner and some later - but all eventually.
Something to think about.
If you do not have a definite line in the sand where you will retreat no farther, then you will always retreat. The enemy will never force you to fight. You have to force yourself to fight.
Be a pacifist if you want - I don't have a problem with that. But don't beat on your chest and talk about how you are really going to kick ass from death ground, if ever you should find yourself there. You will not. I don't mean that you will not kick ass - I mean that you will never find yourself on death ground.
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Shaka, you so crazy! www.sniperflashcards.com
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Shaka, you so crazy! www.axiomaticeconomics.com
I find it funny how the
I find it funny how the dissenters in this thread think that by stocking up on guns and ammo they are being non-pacifists.
Unless you actually intend to use that gear, you're just a chest-puffer who has no business calling anyone a "hippie."
I'll be listening for that first shot when you blowhards take it to the man.
I love how some think a
I love how some think a speech and flower words will change the threat of force. I'm just a guy with a family doing my thing.......I will not stop for a second blowing a hole into someone that threatens them.....be it criminal or from the Govt. I buy guns and ammo partly in a same fashion of why I put a seat belt on in the car. Just more tools to protect life. And the Constitution (and human history) favors free people owning guns.
America plays with the idea of Liberty.
America plays with the idea of Free Markets.
Americans love to get into other americas business....each decade get worse than the last.
You have the freedom to do your hippie thing........let me have the freedom to do mine. (because when yours fails...who are you going to lean on......God damn right....the ones with guns)
I happen to be a gun owner
I happen to be a gun owner myself, actually.
However, if "hippie" is a person who believes in peace and love, then I'm happy to call myself one.
Anyhow, I wasn't the one who was called a hippie. I was simply voicing my disdain for the people who were showing a bit of attitude in this thread, tossing around pejoratives and puffing their chests, as though they were the "real men" and others were contemptible "hippies."
I never could stand a bully. Cowards, the lot of them.
"I never could stand a
"I never could stand a bully. Cowards, the lot of them."
I agree.
Pacifist are the same way.....cowards, the lot of them.
I might disagree, but it
I might disagree, but it would depend on our working definition of "pacifist."
If we mean a person who prefers peaceful resolutions over violent ones, but is willing to resort to violence in self-defense when necessary, then no, pacifists are not cowards. They are in fact rather brave to face danger with a cool head as long as possible.
If we mean a person who is committed to never raising a hand against another, even in self-defense, based on an ideology of absolute pacifism, then I would probably agree to call them a coward. Although, looked at in another light, it might be a perverse kind of bravery.
At any rate, I consider myself the former sort. I prefer peace. But I'll fight in the face of death rather than lie down and let it roll over me. Gandhi was the same sort. He was the quintessential pacifist, yet he also said that he preferred violence to cowardice. He considered his non-violent resistance to be a form of bravery, and so do I.
And then there's Jesus, who didn't raise a finger in defense of his own life. Was he a coward, or was he brave? I know Christians believe he was fulfilling prophesy, but as a non-believer I view the story in secular terms; a traveling moral teacher who allowed himself to be executed. I'm inclined to view that as rather brave, since he didn't attempt to run away like a coward. Still, wouldn't a non-coward fight for his life?
Clearly, this is not a black and white issue.
If some Federal agents came
If some Federal agents came knocking on my door, serving a bullshit warrant to force me into compliance by chipping me and my family or some other such intrusive nonsense, I think it would be incumbent upon me as a free thinking, true American to blow them into the next lifetime. I don't see that as 'taking it to the man'. I see it as my duty to defend my family from tyranny.
"The casualty of partisanship is objectivity."
I agree, but that's simple
I agree, but that's simple self-defense, not the "political action" the OP seems to be alluding to. Promising to defend yourself isn't revolutionary.
I'm talking to people who stock up on gear and use code words to allude to their revolutionary intentions. They're full of shit, as evidenced by their lack of action on those past occasions when they were most likely to become inflamed to act.
Agreed. Most people are all
Agreed. Most people are all talk and will never actually do anything. I think the breaking point for everyone is personal. Only when someone comes to take their guns or harm their families will they MAYBE act. (I don't exclude myself)
I would like to believe there is a collective, national breaking point, but I just don't think reality supports a case for that. Who knows, maybe something will happen that will galvanize a truly revolutionary movement?
"The casualty of partisanship is objectivity."
Gun confiscation would do it.
I'm not going to reference "FEMA camps", because I think the concept is pure B.S. fantasy. I know Halliburton contracted something along those lines, but if FEMA Camps exist, someone please point out their locations so we can take photos. I want to see a FEMA camp in a picture that wasn't created by Photoshop.
Nationwide gun confiscation, however, would be a flash point that would ignite a civil war. People would not take that lying down as they have the Patriot Act and other constitutional abrogations.
SUPPORT OUR FOUNDERS' AMERICA
Support the Constitution of the United States
SUPPORT OUR FOUNDERS' AMERICA
Support the Constitution of the United States
Also...
I have no definite feelings on the subject of American concentration camps but I've seen some compelling stuff:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0P-hvPJPTi4
Ultimately, it's an opinion thing but these places exist for some reason. Somebody built them for a purpose. Who knows...
"The casualty of partisanship is objectivity."
Which is why they will just
Which is why they will just boil us to death slowly. No need to take everyone's guns. Just make them irrelevant.
"The casualty of partisanship is objectivity."
yeah.. it's like early christians fighting the lions
All you hippies are just a meat for their grinder. Happy dying!
I would rather die on my
I would rather die on my feet, than live on my knees.
"The casualty of partisanship is objectivity."
Hippies?
People still use that term?
Ron Paul "Sign Wave Across the USA" -- November 5th!
Why was the 2nd put in the Constitution?
This amendment was not for hunting nor for protection alone, but to keep the govenment in check and to get rid of the government when all else has failed. By your thinking, I guess we have the right to keep and bear arms, but we should never use them. I guess that is why the Founding Fathers put this amendment into Constitution, just to scare people, but never hurt anyone. That makes no sense.
Excellently argued! Logic
Excellently argued! Logic would dictate that the fact that the Second Amendment was included SECOND on the list of all amendments not only attests to it's significance, but also that it should also be concluded that it was meant to be exercised should the the freedoms protected in the previous and succeeding amendments be threatened. What do people think we are supposed to do with those weapons? Scare the power elite, who have no accountability or oversight and indeed no fear of the hoi polloi, with our words and empty threats of violence should they overstep their bounds and trample upon our human dignity?
"The casualty of partisanship is objectivity."
Yes Hubris, I agree. It will be a sad day if...
Martial Law comes to America. That day will "trigger" survival mode for me. I do not want violence, but will do what is necessary if given no other choice. Waving a gun around is ridiculous if that all that you do. However, someone may not think better of attacking you if they know your packin'.
Bump...
Bump!
See you at Camp, then!
See you at camp then!
"The casualty of partisanship is objectivity."
I'm not a Libertarian
I'm a pissed off Republican, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.
The DP is proof that the grassroots support for Ron Paul and his peaceful message of individual liberty is large, real, and not going away!
Yep, me too. (An armed pissed off Republican)
Ron Paul for President 2012
Ron Paul is my President.
touch'e
;)
The DP is proof that the grassroots support for Ron Paul and his peaceful message of individual liberty is large, real, and not going away!
No!!!! Why we must be for well armed neutrality
Liberty favors well armed neutrality. Defense is one of the first laws of nature.
Pacifist's didnt create this country. April 19, 1775 was not won by pacifists. It was won by people that wanted to be left alone......and defended themselves. You are in the "right" by defending yourself.....you have diginty by defending yourself and your family. The Declaration of Independance was a self defence document.
Even Ghandi said: "Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest."
It appears in his autobiography "The story of my experiments with truth" (Chapter XXVII, Recruiting Campaign, pg 446, Beacon Press, 1957).
good luck!! and Don't tread on me.
Once Again I Would Consider Myself
a fully well armed and proactive...pacifist at this point in time :)
This is a very good thread...
thanks for the post DelafieldGuy and thanks for the as usual good comments by MikeLawson and tstorey.
First of all, I have armed my self to the teeth and firmly believe “Don’t Tread On Me”! But, I am not convinced this is the way to go (not sure it is not, as well). But, some things I have read by tstorey on prior posts have got me thinking. It has become clear to me, the seekers of the NWO generate the events to cause us to “demand” what they want from us. This lead me to think that the media will cover things as a group that are consistent with what they are “leading” us to do. So, a questions has come up for me? Why are they advertising the following?
Resent:
1. “7 Trillion in Total Bail Out”.
2. “Record number of gun sales”
Today’s advertisements (I mean headlines):
1. With Weapons of Mass Destruction Attack Likely, Can the U.S. Cope? (says there will likely be an attack on US soil by 2013 and 15,000 home based troops are not enough) http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=6378675&page=1
2. Bank Failures: Protect Your Cash Now – What You Can Do to Insure Your Deposits in Case Your Bank Goes http://abcnews.go.com/Business/PersonalFinance/story?id=5701...
3. Arrested in Alleged Torture of Teen - Calif. couple accused of torturing, chaining 17-year-old who escaped; 3rd suspect sought http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=6380286
4. Worried About Your Finances? -Tell Your Story to ABC News http://abcnews.go.com/Business/PersonalFinance/story?id=5822617
5. Kentucky Atheists Want God Out of Homeland Security – State law requires office to acknowledge divine help in anti terror efforts. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28029857/
6. Feds: Jail Millennium Bomber for longer – Officials say would-be terrorist who targeted LAX stopped cooperating http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28028799/
I can honestly say I now read the news to look for what they are wanting us to do.
The point I am making is, if the seekers of the NWO have always been able to gain power through causing war and profiting from both sides (Napoleonic war, War of 1812, Civil War, World War I and II, Russian Civil War, Korean War, Vietnam War, Afghanistan and Iraq Wars plus others) is it not exactly what they want us to do, physically resist? Then they can spin it as a terrorist plot by subversives in our own country?
What if we learn to read the Big Media advertising to know what they want and we outsmart them or cause them to do what we want?
I think a well planned strategy (complete with a plan for what to do once we have our country back) could possibly be achieved through peaceful protest with the hope of physical force by our own government against its people. We would have a well planned video system to record all events in their graphic details and a pre-planned network to viral broadcast the video to get a R3VOLUTION of public opinion to turn this country into politically activist nation.
Time to wake up the fluoridated public!
Anybody with more or better ideas?
I consider myself
a fully well armed and proactive...pacifist at this point in time.
It's 5AM - Happy Wednesday!
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Happy Wednesday to you (03:40 pm central time).
--Cliff, Sioux City, Iowa
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Who said we were pacifist?
Just because I don't commit acts of violence doesn't make me a pacifist.
We work on our own.
Tell the truth to everyone you know. (truth is a form of light)
The truth works far better than violence. (which is a form of darkness)
The people who control our world are controlled by darkness.
They live a lie.
We live for truth.
Truth ends the lie.
Not that complicated.
Unify