Obama Fomenting A Constitutional Crisis: Constitutional Lawyer Discusses Ramifications Of Controversy
http://www.thebulletin.us/site/news.cfm?newsid=20210273
Digg link.
http://digg.com/politics/Obama_Fomenting_A_Constitutional_Cr...
Controversy continues to surround President-elect Barack Obama's eligibility to serve as president, and a case involving his birth certificate waits for its day before the U.S. Supreme Court. A constitutional lawyer said were it to be discovered that Mr. Obama is not a natural-born U.S. citizen, it would have grave consequences for the nation.
According to the Constitution, a president must be a natural born citizen of the U.S. Mr. Obama's critics have failed to force him legally to produce his original birth certificate, and Mr. Obama has resisted any attempt to make him do so. Currently, only Hawaii Department of Health officials have access to Mr. Obama's original records.
Some of Mr. Obama's critics have said he was born in Kenya and have claimed he is a citizen of Kenya, Indonesia, or even a British subject.
Edwin Vieira, a constitutional lawyer who has practiced for 30 years and holds four degrees from Harvard, said if it were to be discovered Mr. Obama were not eligible for the presidency, it would cause many problems. They would be compounded if his ineligibility were discovered after he had been in office for a period of time.
"Let's assume he wasn't born in the U.S.," Mr. Vieira told The Bulletin. "What's the consequence? He will not be eligible. That means he cannot be elected validly. The people and the Electoral College cannot overcome this and the House of Representatives can't make him president. So what's the next step? He takes the oath of office, and assuming he's aware he's not a citizen, then it's a perjured oath."
Any appointments made by an ineligible president would have to be recalled, and their decisions would be invalidated.
"He may have nominated people to different positions; he may have nominated people to the judicial branch, who may have been confirmed, they may have gone out on xecutive duty and done various things," said Mr. Vieira. "The people that he's put into the judicial branch may have decided cases, and all of that needs to be unzipped."
Mr. Vieira said Obama supporters should be the ones concerned about the case, because Mr. Obama's platform would be discredited it he were forced to step down from the presidency later due to his ineligibility, were it to be discovered.
"Let's say we go a year into this process, and it all turns out to be a flim-flam," said Mr. Vieira. "What's the nation's reaction to that? What's going to be the reaction in the next U.S. election? God knows. It has almost revolutionary consequences, if you think about it."
Mr. Vieira said Mr. Obama's continued silence and avoidance in the release of his birth certificate is an ethical issue because of the dire consequences that could be caused by a possible constitutional crisis.
"If he were my client and this question came up in civil litigation, if there was some reason that his birth status was relevant and the other side wanted him to produce the thing and he said 'no,' I would tell him, 'you have about 15 minutes to produce it or sign the papers necessary to produce the document, or I'm resigning as your attorney," said Mr. Vieira. "I don't think any ethical attorney would go ahead on the basis that his client could produce an objective document in civil litigation [and refused to do so]."
Further, Mr. Vieira cited a fraud ruling in a 1977 case called U.S. v. Prudden, which he feels applies in this case.
"Silence can only be equated with fraud when there is a legal and moral duty to speak or when an inquiry left unanswered would be intentionally misleading," the ruling reads. "We cannot condone this shocking conduct ... If that is the case we hope our message is clear. This sort of deception will not be tolerated and if this is routine it should be corrected immediately."
Mr. Vieira said such an ethical question of representing a client who refused to produce such a basic document is important, even in a small civil case. The current question is concerning the man who potentially could have his finger next to the nuclear button.
"[The birth certificate], in theory, should be there," said Mr. Vieira. "What if it isn't? Who knows, aside from Mr. Obama? Does Russian intelligence know it isn't there? Does Chinese intelligence know it isn't there? Does the CIA know that it isn't there? Who is in a position to blackmail this fellow?"
Mr. Vieira explained all laws have to be submitted to the president. In the event that there is no valid president, then no laws passed by Congress in that administration would be legally null and void. Because of that, this case will probably not go away, even after Mr. Obama takes the oath of office.
"If you don't produce it, you think it's going to go away," he said. "There are all these cases challenging Mr. Obama, and some challenging secretaries of state, and they run into this doctrine called standing."
Mr. Vieira explained although legal standing is difficult to get around in Federal courts, the document could be produced in any criminal cases stemming from legislation passed in the Obama administration.
"Let's assume that an Obama administration passes some of these controversial pieces of legislation he has been promising to go for, like the FOCA (Freedom of Choice) Act," said Mr. Vieira. "I would assume that some of those surely will have some severe civil or criminal penalties attached to them for violation. You are now the criminal defendant under this statute, which was passed by an Obama Congress and signed by President Obama. Your defense is that is not a statute because Mr. Obama is not the president. You now have a right and I have never heard this challenged, to subpoena in a criminal case, anyone who has relevant evidence relating to your defenses. And you can subpoena them duces tecum, meaning 'you shall bring with you the documents.' "
Such a criminal defense would enable the defendant to subpoena any person to testify in court and any person to bring evidence in their possession to the court.
Further, records could be subpoenaed directly, in the case of a birth certificate. Once the record could be subpoenaed, the birth certificate could be examined by forensic experts, who would then be able to testify to the document's veracity as expert witnesses. Any movement by the judges to make a special exception to the president in a criminal case would hurt the legitimacy of that presidential administration.
"I can't believe I'm the only lawyer who would think of this," said Mr. Vieira. "I think any criminal lawyer defending against one of these politically charged statutes is going to come up with this. That means it will never go away until that document is laid down on the table and people say, 'yes, there it is.' And therefore they're caught. If people keep challenging this and the judges out of fear keep saying 'no, go to jail, go to jail, go to jail' then that's the end of the Obama administration's legitimacy. On the other hand if they open the file and it's not there, then that's really the end of the administration's legitimacy."
Several court cases in the birth certificate controversy are waiting admission to the Supreme Court.
A gathering of judges will meet on Dec. 5 to decide whether or not to hear a case from New Jersey, and a decision is still pending on a case from a lawyer in Pennsylvania. Should four of the judges vote to hear the case in the Dec. 5 meeting, then it will be scheduled for hearings. Court cases from Connecticut and New York have also applied for hearings at the U.S. Supreme Court.
John P. Connolly can be reached at jconnolly@thebulletin.us
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Vieira is one of my outspoken judicial heroes
Thanks for posting his remarks.
I have studied many philosophers and many cats. The wisdom of cats is infinitely superior.--Hippolyte Taine
I agree Dr. Vieira is a hero and...
we need to support his appearance at this years...
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and his friend Walter Reddy who with the...
http://www.committeesofsafety.org/
is hosting the event, please network this too all.
http://www.edwinvieira.com/
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If I were a coincidence
If I were a coincidence theorist, then I would speculate that this is being done by design to create a constitutional crisis. At which point, it could be used for a number of different scenarios, anything from an amendment removing the natural born clause to calling for a Constitutional Convention. I would further speculate that this would be a crisis used for the purposes of further integrating the US into the global government via a North American Union or whatever.
If Obama had a valid birth certificate, then the responsible thing for him to do would be to produce it, so that the issue is put to rest.
It's similar to the question of why the FBI and Pentagon have refused to release the videos that show the plane that hit the Pentagon on 9/11. There are dozens of unreleased videos and any one of those videos could prove beyond a doubt, but they won't release them.
If he has it, then produce it. By not doing so, he is allowing these theories to persist, much as the failure to produce the videos from the Pentagon on 9.11 allow for the conspiracy theories to persist.
In both cases, the question is why are these records not being released?
I truly believe
this is being done on purpose to achieve who knows what end.
Is it the final nose-thumbing telling us that the Constitution has lost all of its merit and law binding power?
Is it to cause riot and mayhem so as to usher in martial law?
Is it to bring McCain in as POTUS being that he is the most pliable and complicit (actually not much different than Obama who is not much different than Bush who was not much different than Clinton who was not much different than Daddy Bush...et cetra...et cetera...et cetera).
Is it merely a distraction as Obama puts his team together and does other nefarious things while we're looking the other way?
???
“The law cannot make a wicked person virtuous…God’s grace alone can accomplish such a thing.” Ron Paul - The Revolution
Please ensure you add a Comment also....The Obama Trolls are Out
http://www.topix.net/forum/source/chicago-tribune/T5CNHPRJAL...
Today Dec 3rd Is The Second Day We The People Is Running Obama
Ad in the Chicago Tribune.....See ad here:
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Revolt For Freedom !!! And Send Obama Back Home,To Kenya
Revolt For Freedom !!!
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thanks for adding that....I wil put it in the main thread
and add it to digg
great ad
Thanks for the link.
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"How can we justify to the unemployed and underemployed in the United States the incredible cost of maintaining a global empire?" - Dr. Ron Paul
McIdiot needed like it or not
McIdiot..McShame..McSame what ever you want to call him..hes needed right now...Mr.'Im a hero' needs to get off his wrinkled ass and fight this too..But..why isnt he? Why is the Republican Party sitting back with their thumbs up their asses doing nothing? Thats what I want to know.
Anyone called McCain and ask WTF ARE YOU WHEN YOUR COUNTRY NEEDS YOU???..He swore an oath to defend America...That oath never dies...he needs to be reminded..lots..and now.
Freedom is another way to God...A corrupt government is a straight way to hell.
I believe in Hope & Change..I Hope the government will Change
Spindale-Rutherford County-North Carolina
McCain isn't doing anything
McCain isn't doing anything simply because his birth is as much in question as Obama's. McCain is not a natural born citizen either. He was born in Panama. Though both his parents were Americans, it still doesn't make him natural born. I was born on a base in Germany to American parents. I still had to prove my citizenship when I got my first passport. I am NOT considered natural born . . .
Blessings )o(
Another interesting irony
I remember reading about. Clinton and Obama co-sponsored a resolution ( Senate Res. 511) for McCain in April/08 to resolve any eligibility issues in his Presidential Campaign. So here you have the two who were acting like adversaries go out of their way to help their "rival" sidestep any issues on being eligible as a citizen and here we just happen to have the same exact issue with Obama. Coincidence? Very unlikey. Just one big happy family who think they own this country and can make up the rules to suit themselves.
Senate Res. 511, executed by Obama, Clinton et.al., they say
was to clarify the meaning of the "natural born" requirement for the President of the USA, as per the Constitution.
What's to clarify. A "natural born" citizen is born in the United States of America and a "naturalized" citizen was born elsewhere. There were no military bases in foreign countries at the time of the formation of the Constitutional Republic of the USA. If such military bases are to be considered equal to the states, then the Constitution needs to be properly amended. Effectively, Senate Res. 511 illegally amends the Constitution.
Exactly
So simple a child could define the two definitions. It sure appears this was to pave the way for Obama. Add one more crime to the long list with this illegal amendment to the Constitution. It will be interesting to see if this will be used as a loophole in the lawsuits.
They are just waiting for it all to
come to a high, and implode/explode. I would be surprised if they are not aware of what is going down right this very moment.
They just sitting there, sipping their schnapps, just watching it like a movie...
To Clinton tj72
Yes, that was my point exactly, McCain is natural born due to the fact that his father was active military serving in the U.S. Navy in the Panama Canal zone. U.S. military bases are considered U.S. soil making him eligble.
Nope. That idea was disproven months ago.
Bloodline has nothing to do with natural-born status, only certain cases of naturalized status.
I really like this guy, Vieira
Keep this bumped.
dah
He's not president elect until December 15 after the electoral college says he is.
Start editing these pieces for propaganda, be part of the solution not part of the problem...
Actually, he won't be president elect till
the Senate opens the sealed ballots of the electors and reads the votes into record, on January 5th, and then certifies the winner.
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What a stupid process!
Does anyone else think this whole process is completely asinine? The founding fathers must have been running low on brain juice by the time they came up with this part of the electoral system!
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Actually the electoral process serves a very useful purpose
For example, if the popular vote was all it took to elect the President, you could just let the 10 biggest cities in the country vote, and everyone else could stay home, as their votes would have no voice whatsoever.
The electoral process ensures that no one region has pre-eminence over another, in picking a president and vice president. It ensures that smaller states, through their electoral votes, have a say in who is president. Without the electoral vote process, there would be no point at all to people voting for President in states like New Hampshire, Wyoming, Alaska, Utah, and other sparsely-populated states.
Additionally, the founders knew the dangers of direct democracy. The electoral process gives us the chance to over-ride the possibly dangerous outcome of a direct election. For example, if Obama ends up not being eligible, there is still time to correct this situation by the electors choosing another president who may well represent much of the same political doctrine that Obama espouses, which still taking care to elect an eligible candidate.
Many people feel the same way you do, about the electoral process. I myself used to think it was the stupidest thing. Until I learned about federalism, states' rights, and the Constitution, and how the electoral process is actually a very clever way of trying to balance the need for a President with the needs of the states to maintain their sovereign status. This is also why Senators used to be appointed by the States rather than popularly elected. I believe we should go back to the original method of selection of U.S. Senators, before the 17th amendment modified that.
In order to appreciate the process, though, one must understand that the States intended to be a loosely-affiliated confederation of sovereign states, united under the banner of the constitution to serve them in common interests that they could not handle on their own on the world stage as a number of small, weak states, but could handle as a confederation working toward common purposes.
But ever since the War of Northern Aggression, and then the popular election of U.S. Senators, and the extreme power grabs by the federal government over the last century, the concept of States' Rights has largely been lost, so it is easy to see the electoral process as being "asinine", as it is one of the last few vestiges of the states rights philosophy that still exists today. Divorced from its history, it is hard to make sense of it.
- -
Get your own "Ron Paul for Treasury Secretary" bumper sticker at
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I hate McSlimeball as
To Zozoman and those that replied below him...because I hit the wrong reply 'button'...I hate McSlimeball as anyone. However, you fail to recognize that any military base, US ship, or US Embassy is Sovereign US territory. McSlimeball was born in US sovereign land. I hate it as much as you...I despise him more than you can know...but he was born on 'US territory'.
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Federal Reserve to the American People:
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Who is John Galt? Vote ███ ███ 2012!
Nope. That idea was disproven months ago.
This was done in a long thread back in February. Search for "McCain not eligible" in the post list, by me, and you will see the explanation.
clintontj72 , It Seems That McPsyco At The Time Of...
his unfortunate entry onto planet earth was NOT born on the military base since the hospital on base was not built yet...was born in a civilian hospital off base.
Revolt For Freedom !!!
Revolt For Freedom !!!
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This Is Probably Nothing...
... but, at the same time as this "possible" constitutional crisis in America, we up here in Canada have our own crisis brewing. The recently elected Conservative government (as of this October), could lose a parliamentary vote of confidence next week to three opposition parties, who would then form a new government.
There is a way for the Prime Minister, Stephen Harper, to stop this vote next Monday by literally suspending all business in Parliament for the forseeable future. This would be unprecedented so soon after an election.
Basically, there is a small chance that in a few weeks time, not only could we have an American constitutional crisis, but a continent-wide North American political crisis. All this at the same time as a once in a generation economic and financial crisis. Does this thought turn on any lightbulbs in anyone's minds?
Like I said though, it's probably nothing :-)
The Courts have ruled, "where fraud is involved, all is void!
The Courts have ruled over and over again again, "where fraud is involved, all is null and void!"
The Supreme Court will more than likely have a very extensive written opinion on this one. The Court will likely rule the entire electro process for 2008, null and void.
I think their ruling will severely chastised the DNC and the Democratic Party for their silence in this matter. And they might even take a swipe at the Main Stream News Media for their incompetent and negligence role in failing to report any of this to the public.
Who knows, maybe the Court will show some real balls for a change and order the Main Stream News Media (all publicly licensed air waves) to provide free airtime for new debates. And further state that the owners of these Media Moguls including their employees may NOT participate. That all candidates from both parties, along with all third parties candidatges who were on at least 40 of the 50 State Ballot’s will be allowed to attend these debates.
No matter what, if the Court rules against Obama, it will have great negative connotations for both the Democratic Party and most black politician’s in general for years to come, maybe decades.
Just my humble opinion!
hjschaapman
The Winds of Change!
Its not as simple as the electors chosing Biden
The Obama supporters will go nuts. Media pundits and spin room agents will call foul. The race card will be played. People will riot.
I think anybody who thinks this will be simple grossly underestimates the passion behind these obama people.
see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vynzd9cpQRQ for a fraction of it
Hillary has his birth certificate and his balls in her lock box.
HYDROMAN
Really---think about it!
"Since 1789 the only government on Earth that has the power to crush the American people`s liberties across the board is the government of the United States"
Robert Higgs
Chocolate, salty balls?
Makes me miss Chef.
Ron Paul "Sign Wave Across the USA" -- November 5th!