Healthcare, Libertarianism, Religion, and the Atheist's paradox
Submitted by obscure titles on Fri, 01/09/2009 - 07:58
In order to believe that the libertarian solution to the healthcare problem would succeed, one must have faith in the human spirit.
I woke up to this ironic thought.
Of course, as an objectivist, faith in humanity has nothing to do with religious faith, but so few christians here are objectivists.
And ...
If you are an Atheist and not an objectivist, how do you tackle this apparent paradox?
»
You need no faith in the human spirit
Have you read Dr. Paul's book? We don't need faith in the human spirit to provide healthcare any more than we need it to provide barbers and haircuts. A free market would have a broad spectrum of services which allow people to seek out the service that they need dependent on a real world price structure. Insurance would function as "insurance", that is covering only emergencies that could not be paid by health savings accounts. This would bring the cost of insurance way down and allow more people to afford it. Those who could not afford it still or were disabled would have to rely on charity as they are charity cases, although todays world gives tremendous opportunity for even the disabled to work from home, etc. It is the government intervention itself that creates the distortion in the healthcare markets and require insurance tio pay for every single little doctor visit even if it means a scrape on your finger and some antibiotics. The system is polluted by government and monetary manipulation. The only human spirit we need is the spirit needed for lazy, ignorant, statist fools to wake up and take back personal responsibility of their lives and stop trusting government.
"The credit expansion boom is built on the sands of banknotes and deposits. It must collapse.", www.mises.org
"Endless money forms the sinews of war." - Cicero, www.freedomshift.blogspot.com
Mary Mary Where You Going To...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_OUpaWrU-H4
Revolt For Freedom !!!
Revolt For Freedom !!!
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It would be helpful
if you would not call yourself an Objectivist when you are not. It confuses things for those who are still on their journey.
As an Objectivist I ask simply: "What is your epistemology"?
And to all please read "Atlas Shrugged" and be ready for your intellectual life to change.
Not sure what you mean but I will give it a shot ...
I rely on reason for knowledge.
I rely on mysticism and faith for personal grace.
I guess you could consider me a selfish Christian.
Rand argued that these are opposing views.
But while she dismissed mysticism, she also recognized its possible existence. She merely dismisses it becuase it is not provable and therefore, to focus on it, would be a waste of time.
If it does exist, why could she not see that an individual can rely on faith to enhance his/her reason.
Humans are unique creatures.
How does one maximize the conscience?
Is it possible that the ritualistic nature of faith may in fact aid in accumulating the maximum amount of knowledge within an individual's lifetime?
WAHOR!!
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/48994
WAHOR!!
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/48994
Not a bad question, Rhino...
"...why could she not see that an individual can rely on faith to enhance his/her reason."
Also, are you sure it is the "ritualistic" nature of faith that is responsible for your enrichment and not the "trust" element to faith, which would be more spiritual in nature?
And dude...it's 4:00 am. What are you doing here? Lol
Trying to get some work done while everyone else is asleep ...
Now leave me alone ...
LOL.
WAHOR!!
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/48994
WAHOR!!
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/48994
Sleep is for DEAD People......
LOL..........LOL........LOL
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they attack you, then you win!"
GANDHI
Lol. ~sticking my tongue out at Rhino~
I couldn't sleep because my mind is abuzz from that reply I did to Sentinel below earlier. Kind of exhausting like the "project" but not in a way that I could rest afterward. That final version of my comment you see is about 4 hours worth of work.
Trying to say the right things without saying too much or not enough. You know. Typed, retyped, retyped, retyped...until I decided on that final version.
Then worrying about the freezing rain coming down outside...ugh.
Anyway ponder the trust element in faith. :)
With that I'm off to try to sleep.
Well, this can never be proved-
"In order to believe that the libertarian solution to the healthcare problem would succeed, one must have faith in the human spirit."
So this entire discussion is moot.
CHA-CHING!
My Re-creative Thought For The Day
When I listen to media commentators discuss the politics of healthcare reform, I am almost inevitably disappointed by their complete disregard for the role of the individual in the management of his/her own health. The focus of commentary seems to focus on access to professional services. "Too many people are uninsured!", they say, implying that improved access to professional healthcare services, in itself, equates to improved healthcare. The proof of such an equation, of course, depends upon the definition of "healthcare". Improved access to healthcare services does indeed equate to improved healthcare if "healthcare" is defined as the medical-pharmaceutical-congressional complex which benefits from our use of such services (and that pays media commentators to discuss the politics of healthcare reform.) But if we define "healthcare" as an individual's management of his/her own health, then professional healthcare services are immediately reduced definitionally to a few healthcare options among many, the navigation through which might sound like: "Shall I research my symptoms online or consult my aunt who dabbles in herbalism or treat myself to a relaxing spa package or visit my conventional family practice physician or perhaps none of the above?" In light of such options, one's sense of "access" to "healthcare" "services" expands, does it not? In such an expanded context, the greatest (surmountable) limitation to access is governmental regulation, which is to say that the more we as individuals are empowered by directly experiencing that we are ultimately responsible for our own healthcare, the more we recognize the limitations inherent to and imposed upon us by the medical-pharmaceutical-congressional complex. So while we might agree our healthcare options are enhanced by the inclusion of a primary care physician who by virtue of his/her higher education knows quite a lot about contemporary human physiology and the treatment thereof, given that such knowledge amounts to a very narrow band of knowledge in the full spectrum of knowledge available, we might also agree that any healthcare reform political agenda which equates improved healthcare to improved access to such professional healthcare services, really only amounts to a political agenda to reform individuals to pay for, in one way or another, their own disempowerment in the name of "healthcare".
So ...
A senior citizen requiring pills to survive and medicare to pay for those pills ...
What do you say to that person?
WAHOR!!
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/48994
WAHOR!!
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/48994
ugh
You're trying to fit a solution into an already corrupted box. We have to have a clean slate before we can develop true solutions. It's like trying to fix a corrupted economic system by tinkering with bailouts, instead of starting out fresh.
www.twatm.com
We have to take what we are dealt ...
Come up with a package ...
And sell it ....
That is the reality of the situation.
WAHOR!!
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/48994
WAHOR!!
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/48994
Rhino, I think you have multiple things going on here...
... judging from how I read your post above and your replies to people below.
You're getting lofty here again and it's hard to follow. Sorry...Lol.
I'm trying to tie what you are saying together and understand all of what you are getting at.
I have no suggestions for you about solutions to the healthcare problem. I also do not put my faith in "humanity".
You said below: "Most athiests (other than objectivists of course) can not explain why humans would act in a humanitarian way ..."
What about conscience? Remember our discussion the other day on your "roles" thread? I believe there is a spiritual connection regarding conscience...to the author of morality.
Regarding atheists, I have never really encountered too many who truly believe there is no God whatsoever.
Can't speak for all who call themselves atheists, but more often than not, the ones I knew seemed really to be more angry with God than totally disbelieving of Him.
Even so, does denying God turn off conscience? I can't explain a sociopath, but there are certainly those who claim not to believe in God who still exhibit a conscience.
The example given by a poster below about the "reward center in the brain" explains the receiving in the reward system, but it does not explain the giving.
So, maybe compassion? Something from that conscience, written in our hearts by the author of morality, that explains humanitarian acts?
Deep questions.
Yes ....
A conscience ...
But only an objectivist believes that the selfish nature of conscience is an optimistic approach to humanity.
The others believe that when push comes to shove and you are backed into a corner, your selfish acts of survival come at a detriment to society.
WAHOR!!
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/48994
WAHOR!!
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/48994
Rhino, you have described yourself as an objectivist many times.
I'm curious. At what point did you see yourself that way, or did you decide to be that?
How can you be an objectivist and not be an atheist ?
We only believe what can be seen and proved. you know ? like in reality.
~Mikael / Peace, love, Light and unity ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Stop the NWO....It's just illumi..Naughty !
Quite simple ...
I think Doctor Paul calls it a much less militaristic approach to objectivism.
Rand argues that mysticism, if it exists at all, precedes man, and being human does not rely on mysticism.
Rand chose to dismiss mysticism, but she did not disprove it.
She merely approached the subject as not being important.
She claimed, and rightly so, that, if anything, mysticism, promoted collectivism, and was, therefore, counterproductive to humanity.
However, I would argue that collectivism is not necessary for mysticism and that some of us have been able to separate mysticism from collectivism.
WAHOR!!
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/48994
WAHOR!!
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/48994
Sometimes the "unseen" has a way of proving itself...
...or Himself. ;)
no it "really" doesn't .
Just show me one instance.
~Mikael / Peace, love, Light and unity ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Stop the NWO....It's just illumi..Naughty !
:) depends on what 'unseen'
:) depends on what 'unseen' we're referring to ....
i've kept track of my manifestations for several years but last summer i wanted to start tracking how fast they manifest after i start doing focus work on them.
i've been taught the science of manifesting/the philosophy of it and different manifestation techniques. that got rid of some of my doubt.
seeing things manifest got rid of some more doubt.
'the process' is COMPLETELY unseen. you know that saying 'let go and let god'. :) 'god' here isn't referring to the christian god... it would be more accurate to use the quantum physics term of 'the observer' --- that is what is doing the manifesting. the fact that we have the ability to manifest what we focus on is why ramtha calls us all 'forgotten gods'. we have forgotten the power of our mind.
first i had doubt that the disciplines would work for me. i saw it work for others but doubted my ability to replicate that success for myself. it isn't 'hard'. but you DO have to get out of your own way and just do the technique.
i got a daytimer and i write down when i do a focus session and on what topic/idea/item then i write it down when it manifests.
i know exactly how long i spent focusing on it and what discipline/technique i used.
and i know what hasn't manifested and what to re-work.
the only trust/faith i'm having is in 'the process' of manifestation. it does suck that its unseen but there's nothing that we can do about that.
now, when i find that i have a blank day in my daytimer, i know that its my own fault. i can clearly see that i haven't put the focus time in. i completely control it. i choose how much focus time i'm going to commit to everyday.
the only things blocking me manifesting are: an attitude hang up over something (usually insecurity and unworthiness) or my skill set is not developed enough.
i'm working on several projects that i think are 'big'. that is just a limiting attitude i have to work through.
manifesting a client, a sale, healing ourselves, winning the lotto, bilocating -- are all equal -- the only thing getting in the way is our own limiting beliefs.
i know that is a rambling answer but i wanted to say is that while
the unseen' doesn't show 'itself' ... it does show its results. :)
Sentinel, sorry I took so long on this.
I cannot share my specific examples, my instances...and please take no offense to that. Besides, they would mean nothing to you.
SeattlePaulite below is quite correct about revelation. A revelation for me may not be one for Sentinel, and vice versa. We are not all at the same place in our journeys, and our journeys are between us and God...whether we believe in Him yet or not.
I do believe that there are proofs from the unseen that manifest themselves in the seen. But whether one wants to believe and accept them as such is up to them.
"Instances". They can be found in the workings of the laws of sowing and reaping.
Proof? Fruition....harvest is the proof, the manifestation, the ultimate evidence that there was work taking place behind the scenes.
I already did believe in God when my "instances" took place. But believe me, my journey and my faith have plenty of ups and downs. However, recent experiences, the instances, have expanded and reinforced my faith for sure.
Sentinel, I'm 43 and it took this long for me to just recently be able to have this kind of awareness, "attunement", that I've experienced lately.
And it was not my imagination. It was not wishful thinking. There was pattern, plan, and I could follow it more this time. Growth, I guess.
Sometimes that thing called growth seems to happen in stages, levels, and it was like I was allowed to to see a little bit more this time...and hopefully someone else that was sort of involved did see also.
If you sincerely want to know what I mean about the "unseen" proving itself, open your heart and seek. Seek understanding, "Seek first the kingdom of God..."
I pray that you have your own instance. :)
Wait... I thought you were Christian...
...?
CHA-CHING!
I have one for you...
As Paine put it, revelation is direct communication from the Creator to one human being. It cannot be proven. I am as skeptical as anyone should be, but I will not begin to definitively disclaim the merits of some and their perceived revelation. Just remember that you don't have to agree if it was not directly revealed to you from "the Creator".
Chris
Think for yourself. Question authority.
Mr. Rhino......I am not quick to judge but rather.......
ABSORB AND REFLECT AND FINALLY DECIDED ON WHAT OTHERS THINK IN RETROSPECT TO MY THINKING.......HOW ABOUT YOU?
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they attack you, then you win!"
GANDHI
Rhino, take your name out of
Rhino, take your name out of the title you self-important jackass
Way to go stickles...
It worked. and I came to read it since it didn't have his name!
--------
You can't spell Revolution without evolution!
'Cause there's a monster on the loose
no no the credit goes to
no no the credit goes to oruval for remembering to tell him to SWITCH thumbs. You see to make a long story short rhino is forced by a debilitating disease to keep one thumb in his mouth to suck on and one in his butt for safe-keeping. Sometimes he gets complacent and forgets to switch, allowing intelligence and conscience to simply build up inside with no outlet. But due to Oruval's reminder to switch thumbs, rhino was able to alleviate the building pressure of self-aggrandizement.
So please folks, give it up for oruval...he's the real hero here
OMG! LMAO for switch!
I know it is "not nice" but LMAO!
"Thomas Jefferson is rolling in his grave fast enough to be a new source of energy independence."~ samthurston
http://www.campaignforliberty.com/
"I think we are living in a world of lies: lies that don't even know they are lies, because they are the children and grandchildren of lies." ~ Chris Floyd
SWITCH!!!!
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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