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No legal guns or knives. Plenty of random violence. Welcome to Britain.

I have opened this thread at the suggestion of Colognepaulist, as our thoughts on guns were encroaching on another thread.

While gun control advocates are not limited to continental Europe or Great Britain, we do seem to have more than our fair share of people who do not understand the concept of "self defense" or the concept of an armed citizenry acting as a check on government abuses.

Its not just firearms either. Any knife or blunt instrument must be justified by some purpose other than self defence.

In the security industry, for example, it is common for guards patrolling sites to carry ridiculously heavy torches (flashlights). Why? The simple possession of a blunt instrument that is actually designed for the purpose of self defence could land the owner in prison.

Here is the LPUK's position on firearms and self-defence:

"We will amend the Firearms Acts to repeal the pistol ban, which has both completely failed to reduce armed crime and crippled our country's ability to compete in the pistol shooting events in the Olympic and Commonwealth Games, while depriving law-abiding householders of the ability to defend their homes with one of the most suitable weapons available. We will also remove the legal anomaly that requires antique-patterned muzzle-loading firearms to be licensed and registered as if they were modern weapons, when the originals can be bought over the counter. Since the technology is long obsolete, we will follow the path of most European countries by removing this bureaucratic requirement.

We will amend the 1988 Criminal Justice Act to prevent law-abiding people from being prosecuted for the simple act of having sharp or pointed objects in their possession. This Act has led to perverse court rulings resulting in innocent people being convicted for carrying the tools of their trade and other non-weapons, and it has done nothing to reduce violent crime.

Throughout our first term in office we will work to further reduce and eliminate bureaucratic and legal barriers to lawful self-defence and peaceful participation in the shooting sports."

http://lpuk.org/pages/manifesto.php



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Violence

Violence is a software problem, not a hardware problem.

Snappy. I like it.

Also the old standard that: "If you outlaw guns, only outlaws HAVE guns."

"That Socialism would be immediately practicable if an omnipotent and omniscient Deity were personally to descend to take in hand the government of human affairs is incontestable." - Ludwig Von Mises.

Hey, I didn't

even get called a socialist yet! I guess it's a good thing the Europeans have created a *safe zone* for me here for the moment.

I'd like to draw attention to (and draw out) BigT's comment below:

The National Firearms Act of 1934,
the Gun Control Act of 1968,
all taxes, fees, background checks, etc.
are *infringements* on the unalienable right to keep and bear arms.
These are all acts of violence of the United States government upon its citizens.
But there was little if any response, resistance, or retaliation.

Why?
(Answer: Almost nobody agrees with or understands the above assertions.)

Through these things the government has asserted that we are to be denied life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It's just a matter of time.

Do you remember the video about the world state system being "farming" with governments being the farmers? That's basically true, I think. We are being kept alive because of our production capabilities.

We know you're not a socialist farmer.

Concern for the poor, sick and destitute does not mean that you look to government for the solutions. I'm starting a new thread on that topic.

"That Socialism would be immediately practicable if an omnipotent and omniscient Deity were personally to descend to take in hand the government of human affairs is incontestable." - Ludwig Von Mises.

oops

I started my own new thread---called some new ideas.

We have little violence here in Sweden

Here in Sweden we do not have these accidents with guns that are common in the US nor do people shoot each other when they are angry, cause, they have no guns. This is not bad ofc.
Here everything is banned as well, weapons, knifes, even mace and pepper spray, these things should be allowed I think, for self defense.
Only thing you can have in defense is an alarm.
I cannot ever see guns being accepted here.
But it´s a different country.
There are more illegal guns and criminals here now than before we joined the EU. So the trend is not good.

regarding an armed public. Well you can join the the Home Guard if u wan´t. And pretty much every male has to do military service, but this has changed a bit the last few years.
Do I wan´t a gun ? nah not really, I guess I could get a permit if I wanted, but I don´t wan´t one. If I start hunting, maybe. But no plans to do that.

Maybe it´s not because you have so much guns you have much violence, but because of your society ? All fear propaganda and violent gun loving movies ? I dunno..Didn´t Michael Moore take up this in his movie ?

/Mike

m72mc

I have heard elk hunting is very popular in Sweden and is allowed for each Swedish citizen during a special hunting season. So what do Swedish people do with their hunting rifle over the rest of the year? Keep it at home or hand it over to the authorities? Since large parts of your (very beautiful) country are thinly populated I guess traditionally there should be a strong tradition of armed self-defence.

Fellowship of the White Rose

Ron Paul was right

They mostly hunt in rural areas.

Then they have hunting rifles. It´s not all that many that hunt though.
I had one guy in my class that did hunt, when I went to school in a small town. Moose hunting..ya lol..
If u have a gun/rifle you have to keep the vital parts separated and locked up.
Most city people don´t have any rifles. I doubt they hunt. No one I know anyway.
The country side in very thinly populated yes. My family have a farm up north and we are basically related to everyone there..lol.
They have been living there since at least 1400-1500 or so...propably longer...but the records only go so far.

Btw you don´t need guns in Sweden for self defense..theres hardly any crime...on the country side its very calm...almost boring. ^^
I live in the city ofc..but I live next to the Police house, so I feel safe ^^

/Mike

Point by point.

"Here in Sweden we do not have these accidents with guns that are common in the US nor do people shoot each other when they are angry, cause, they have no guns. This is not bad ofc."

Don't assume that because something is illegal it can't happen. Now that Sweden has joined the EU, things are likely to change. Britain currently has a knife and gun crime epidemic, despite draconian anti-knife and anti-gun laws.

"Here everything is banned as well, weapons, knifes, even mace and pepper spray, these things should be allowed I think, for self defense."

Same story in Britain.

"Only thing you can have in defense is an alarm."

Violent muggers - as opposed to bag snatchers - are more likely to strike when the streets are deserted. The alarm goes off. Who comes to your aid?

"I cannot ever see guns being accepted here. But it´s a different country."

I think we will see some huge changes in the next 20 years. Sweden, Britain, the US and everywhere else.

"There are more illegal guns and criminals here now than before we joined the EU. So the trend is not good."

Indeed.

"Well you can join the the Home Guard if u wan´t. And pretty much every male has to do military service, but this has changed a bit the last few years."

Of course, there is a world of difference between joining a militia to check the government and joining the military to fight for the government.

"Do I wan´t a gun? nah not really, I guess I could get a permit if I wanted, but I don´t wan´t one. If I start hunting, maybe. But no plans to do that."

Give it a few years. See if you still feel that way.

"Maybe it´s not because you have so much guns you have much violence, but because of your society? All fear propaganda and violent gun loving movies ? I dunno..Didn´t Michael Moore take up this in his movie?"

Both the US and Canada have fairly high rates of gun ownership, but Canada has a much lower murder rate. Moore attributed this to certain social attitudes in his film. However, the British public has similar attitudes and an epidemic of random violence and crime. Go figure.

"That Socialism would be immediately practicable if an omnipotent and omniscient Deity were personally to descend to take in hand the government of human affairs is incontestable." - Ludwig Von Mises.

Just got myself a rifle

Just got myself a rifle, but got to wait 10 days for it, wish could get a AK47...F*ching california gun laws! Gun shops are crowded today

Let's all get a rifle before tommorrow if you have a 10 days waiting period ;)

Castle Law in Ohio - Passed

& it should be law in all States - Anybody got a M1A Carbine for sale? Looking for my collection

"You Cannot Stop An Idea Whose Time Has Come"

I must admit, that's even more appalling than I'd imagined.

I had no idea people were debarred the use of not just firearms, but knives and clubs as well!

And we think we have it bad here in modern-day America. A nation that restricts its citizens from even carrying knives is a complete totalitarian state.

SUPPORT OUR FOUNDERS' AMERICA
Support the Constitution of the United States

SUPPORT OUR FOUNDERS' AMERICA
Support the Constitution of the United States

Yup. Don't run with scissors kids...or we'll lock you up.

Its like something from the Onion newspaper isn't it? Only its real. Life imitates comedy.

The consequences of the crazy laws are not so funny. One doesn't need a knife or gun to maim or kill. A single punch or kick can do that. That happens alot. Next, our government will probably outlaw clenched fists or heavy boots.

"That Socialism would be immediately practicable if an omnipotent and omniscient Deity were personally to descend to take in hand the government of human affairs is incontestable." - Ludwig Von Mises.

Socialist nanny state in the UK

and the according mentality has become worse than in Germany.

Regarding gun ownership (in a nut shell): In any case you need a permit. Rifles are only allowed for hunting purposes. You can keep a short gun at your home if the authorities think you to be 'reliable'. You may carry a gun (concealed) if you have proven you are under personal thread (very hard to get this permit). Generally speaking the laws on arms are getting more and more restrictive. Since four years jack knives are disallowed too. I guess they would like to make the UK rules (that are the most restrictive as far as I know) standard in the EU.

Fellowship of the White Rose

Ron Paul was right

Next it will be rubber pavements (sidewalks).

Then compulsory Straitjackets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straitjacket

Kinky :-)

"That Socialism would be immediately practicable if an omnipotent and omniscient Deity were personally to descend to take in hand the government of human affairs is incontestable." - Ludwig Von Mises.

*

*

As far as I've heard...

we have your Nazi's to thank for making the connection between hunting/sporting and firearm ownership.

It's probably worth pointing out...

as done by K"olnpaulist on the other thread, that bearing arms is not the only piece of the puzzle. In fact, in that thread the consideration was whether or not it was a viable piece of the liberty puzzle in Europe at all. It was my suggestion that our founders viewed the the armament of the citizens at a level greater than or equal to any army of the state (which was only to be constituted in time of war) as integral to their vision for us, if not necessary.

And as it always bears repeating, the constitution was not a statement of the rules according to which the government was to operate as much as a statement of human nature and how to prevent the worst of that nature from being expressed through government.

Putting those things together, it may be that the European freedom movement will eventually, of necessity, have to reintroduce the armament culture. It may not be the first thing to do, but it may have to be done.

(and now I'm going to start to ramble...prepare for disorganized thoughts)
I think for Europe creating a network of true social help that works and is independent of government (as crazy as that sounds!) might actually be a better place to start. And as crazy as it sounds, it might be a place we will have to start too. As they say, freedom is not free.

This is obviously not a natural suggestion for any of us. And even if some of us are successful in maintaining relative independence, it is not always obvious how to help. Here is an example. Say you've got a single mom who is up against hard times financially, and you know that she is looking for help. Say she even seems to be freedom minded; she is exercising her freedom to be free of her husband, who might have been able to provide for her after all. So, it seems to me there should be some way to build family (and possibly community) relationships that tend to stability and independence. There should be some disinterested way to communicate that sacrifices have to be made for independence and freedom, and having your family situation be one that keeps you from draining away the resources of others is something that is worth sacrifice as well.

Of course, I'm sure that most of those here will jump all over me for saying such a thing. That's fine. But I'm just saying there should be some good way to create a network of advice on things like that (and many others) that tend to freedom. With the populations we have, they are not independent, and they don't know where to start to be so. We need to say, in a way that is not offensive: You need to stay married. You need to have good relationships with your parents and your children so that you can depend on them first. I think it's the kind of thing Dr. Paul might say if he thought about it more. He emphasizes that he doesn't want to run your life, but he also gives advice like "live within your means." Actually, he says "we need to live within our means." He says "we'll need to do away with social security and welfare eventually." Or at least we should, but he knows people aren't ready for that. I think he communicates very well that he is not "out to get" those who end up on welfare or (want to) depend on social security. He really wants to help people. And that is what I really want to say is the place to start. We have to become (and communicate) like Dr. Paul that we really want to help people---and have advice that really can help and is effective.

On the other side, people will have to humble themselves and take advice; that is why I say they/we need a declaration of dependence. Also not so common...but the place for us to start is probably to become independent and then start giving the advice...probably in written form. But the usual freewheeling "freedom works" philosophy doesn't seem to be very workable when you have a highly dependent population.

rambling over---ok lay into me; I've got broad shoulders.

Another good point, farmer

Building up a state-independend voluntary "system of social help" should be a big issue not only in Europe.
As a matter of fact, down to the middle-ages it was very common for a city, a professional group (gildes) or the local church and later philantrooist to build up and mantain such a system, to care for the poor, sick and old either of their group or of the public of ther local community. Many hospitals, insurance companies and even banks here go back to some voluntary donation. I don't think there can be any objection to such a system as long as it is voluntary on the donor and on the receiver side.
A weakness of libertarianism in general (as far as I can see) is that it doesn't adress adequately adress the social question.

Fellowship of the White Rose

Ron Paul was right

Good points.

"It was my suggestion that our founders viewed the the armament of the citizens at a level greater than or equal to any army of the state (which was only to be constituted in time of war) as integral to their vision for us, if not necessary."

Exactly. This is what Europeans fail to grasp. The state should not have a monopoly on force. Sadly, typical academic textbooks on politics, philosophy or sociology often define the state in terms of a monopoly (or near monopoly) on force. Its a big conceptual adjustment.

"I think for Europe creating a network of true social help that works and is independent of government (as crazy as that sounds!) might actually be a better place to start. And as crazy as it sounds, it might be a place we will have to start too. As they say, freedom is not free."

You are definitely on to something here. The welfare state has been instrumental in destroying all the social networks of mutual aid that existed before it. Those networks need rebuilding. There was freely given mutual aid before the NHS, sickness benefits and the dole.

"But the usual freewheeling "freedom works" philosophy doesn't seem to be very workable when you have a highly dependent population."

Dependency indeed. Drug addicts get very angry if you question their habit or deny them their fix. But they still hit rock bottom eventually. Its starting to happen now.

That Socialism would be immediately practicable if an omnipotent and omniscient Deity were personally to descend to take in hand the government of human affairs is incontestable." - Ludwig Von Mises.

Hey Brit,

again we seem to have the same thoughts.
Interesting is that most of these systems of mutual help still exist though they are now integrated in the state welfare system or marginalized. Guess with the breakdown of state "social security" they will be revitalized.
Should be worth another thread.

Fellowship of the White Rose

Ron Paul was right

brits are hopeless...they

brits are hopeless...they still got a clown/crown.

wow...

you picked an appropriate handle. Must make a lot of friends with that...doesn't play well with others attitude.

Can you have pit bulls?

Or wear bulletproof vests? I think I read somewhere stab proof vests were becoming the rage for youth in Britain.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Start getting freedom today by dumping Federal Reserve Notes, Stocks, Banks and anything made outside the USA. Buy precious metals, real estate, businesses, food and guns and get your business community to use local or sound currenc

Pit Bulls are illegal here. See 1991 Dangerous Dogs Act.

Once again, I'm not joking.

In Liverpool, the Staffordshire Terrier is an extremely popular dog. Staffies were originally bred as fighting dogs, but they are very friendly and intelligent dogs. Good pets and not bad for security.

Stab proof hoodies for kids are also a reality. Sign of the times eh?

"That Socialism would be immediately practicable if an omnipotent and omniscient Deity were personally to descend to take in hand the government of human affairs is incontestable." - Ludwig Von Mises.

A note of caution

If you have a weapon for self-defence you have to train the usage. Otherwise the attacker or perpetrator may use it on you.

Fellowship of the White Rose

Ron Paul was right

Any limits

on your ability of self-defense is a de-facto admission that they want you dead.
Remember that, and who they are that passed it and backed it.
They are your mortal enemies.

Their claims for "public safety" are thin cover for their true aim, which is your destruction, and they are working diligently to ensure you will be victimized.
NEVER surrender your arms, and if someone comes to disarm you, use them for the purpose for which they were intended.

If this is what your gov't has come to, then the British people need to make a serious change in gov't. It's been done before, you know.

The way I heard it...

they already happily lined up to turn in their weapons.

Indeed.

This article is five years old and riddled with anti-gun propaganda - but if you read "between the lines" it is quite informative.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2986179.stm

"That Socialism would be immediately practicable if an omnipotent and omniscient Deity were personally to descend to take in hand the government of human affairs is incontestable." - Ludwig Von Mises.

Your Home is your castle!

With this Law in Mississippi, it gives you the right to protect yourself and your property. I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6