HELP with rubuttal...Obama being a citizen
OK guys,
I sent out a couple of vids to my closet attorney friends concerned about Obama's citizenship. Here is one of the replies I received from them. I'm sharing this in hopes that some of my fellow Daily Paulers may help me in the rebuttal.
Thanks in advance!
Here is the reply:
I love hearing from you, but feel I must clear something up for you as I consider you my friend and these things you are passing out challenging Obama's citizenship are without merit. As a mother of three children, I am thankful that no matter where I gave birth to them, they are U.S. citizens due to the fact that I am a U.S. citizen. The law in this regard reads as follows:
Article II of the U.S. Constitution says, "No Person except a natural born citizen, or a Citizen of the United States ... shall be eligible to the Office of President." However, Acts of Congress in 1790 and 1795 clarify that "the children of citizens of the United States ... shall be considered as natural born citizens."
So, even if Obama wasn't born in the U.S., he is a citizen as nobody has ever contested his mother's citizenship. That being said, Obama was born on August 4, 1961 in Hawaii. His birth certificate has been produced on many occasions.
If your concern is that Obama intends to overthrow the U.S. government, please stop worrying. That is nothing more than the rhetoric of extremists who don't know their head from a hole in the ground!
Obama is going to do great things - mark my words. Just sit back and watch!
Best regards
The thing you have to ask her why
is obama/Soetoro hiding behind so many lawyers and spending upwards a million dollars to seal the very same documents that can acknowledge him as an eligible POTUS.
Tell her if someone gives up their citizenship for another countries"Indonesia" are they eligible than to be POTUS, why does Lolo Soetoro acknowledge obama as his son in Dunham/Soetoro divorce papers, granted not by name but there seems to be missing papers from that divorce, funny right.
http://decalogosintl.org/documents/Soetoro_Divorce.pdf
HAHAHA my "senator" wrote the same thing she did (conspiracy?)
Thank you for contacting me regarding President-Elect Obama's citizenship. I appreciate hearing from you and would like to respond to your concerns.
Like you, I believe that our federal government has the responsibility to make certain that the Constitution of the United States is not compromised. We must fight to uphold our Constitution through our courts and political processes.
Article II of the Constitution provides that "no Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President." The Constitution, however, does not specify how that qualification for office is to be enforced. As you may know, a voter recently raised this issue before a federal court in Pennsylvania. On October 24, 2008, the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania released an order in the case of Berg v.Obama.In that case, the plaintiff, Phillip Berg, raised the same issue that your letter raises regarding proof of the President-Elect's birthplace. Through his lawsuit, Mr. Berg sought to compel President-Elect Obama to produce a certified copy of his birth certificate.
The District Court dismissed Mr. Berg's suit and held that the question of Obama's citizenship is not a matter for a court to decide. The court further noted that voters, not courts, should decide whether a particular presidential candidate is qualified to hold office.
Presidential candidates are vetted by voters at least twice - first in the primary elections and again in the general election. President-Elect Obama won the Democratic Party's nomination after one of the most fiercely contested presidential primaries in American history. And, he has now been duly elected by the majority of voters in the United States. Throughout both the primary and general election, concerns about Mr. Obama's birthplace were raised. The voters have made clear their view that Mr. Obama meets the qualifications to hold the office of President.
After he is sworn into office, Mr. Obama will be our nation's President and I intend to bestow upon him the honor and respect due any man who holds that Office. Yet, I am certain that there will be times when I will disagree and oppose President Obama's policies. When that happens, you can be assured that I will pursue vigorously what I believe to be in the best interest of Florida and the nation.
I thank you for sharing your views with me and will keep your concerns in mind. If you have additional questions or comments, please contact me. For more information about issues and activities important to Florida, please sign up for my weekly newsletter at http://martinez.senate.gov.
Sincerely,
Mel Martinez
United States Senator
BEST SUMMARY EXPLANATION ON THE OBAMA BIRTH ISSUE & CONSTITUTION
BEST SUMMARY EXPLANATION ON THE OBAMA BIRTH ISSUE & CONSTITUTION
Oh People, There appears to be no understanding what this issue really is. This was an issue of Obama's eligibility way before the election. It isn't a racial problem, it isn't a Republican or Democrat issue. This is a consitutional issue.
To call people nut jobs and all the other names inmature and shows your own lack of information. I understand that it has probably been a long time since you learned what the eligibility criteria was for the President of the US. There are 3 requirements...just 3. The issue that is of concern is if Obama is a "natural born" citizen. That is the most important requirement. The President and VP must be natural born citizens under the Constitution. There is no other job in the US that has this requirement.
The term "natural born citizen" refers to a status you must attain at the time you are "born". If you aren't a natural born citizen at birth, you'll never be one.
Obama has on his web site, that he was born in Hawaii, his mother was an American citizen, and his father was from Kenya (British subject). Natural Born citizen requires that he be born on US soil. He was. Unfortunately, his lineage follows his father's. So Obama really had duel citizenship. His citizenship would come under the 14th Amendment. The 14th Amendment confers the status of "Citizen" not "Natural born citizen."
If citizenship is codified in the Code of Federal Regulations, then a person is NOT a “natural born citizen.” Barack Obama’s citizenship is codified in the Code of Federal Regulations. Therefore, Barack Obama is not a “natural born citizen,” because it came through Article 1, Section 8, Clause 4. If one's citizenship is the result of a LAW, then they are not a Natural Born citizen.
Obama knows the requirement, yet he ran for office anyway. He taught constitutional law. How dare he do this to the American public? I have seen the legal document he signed in AZ stating he was a natural born citizen and that he was qualified under the constitution. He lied. He signed it knowing that it was a lie.
No one has seen his passport, or any other records, they are all hidden. But you see, it still makes no difference. Just from his web site the answers are there.
If he takes the oath of office, he is a usurper. Anything he signs i.e., bills, treaties, laws are illegal.. all null and void. The military doesn't have to do anything he says nor do citizens. Anyone he appoints to office, all their documents are null and void also. They have no power. Because he isn't really the president, he can't be impeached either. So this is the real issue, our Constitution.
Our enemies are watching very closely. It was written about in Russia's newspaper, PRAVDA. This constitutional issue is not being reported correctly in the USA, instead it is totally wrong and misconstrued. Yes, Obama is a citizen, but not a natural born citizen. The only conspiracy is Obama himself. He is pulling the wool over the USA. Below is an article written by a constitutional attorney about the consequences of Obama being in office as a usurper. Do take the time to read it so that you really understand what will happen if he becomes a usurper. The Russian article is more correct than any of the American articles on the subject. They do understand and will take advantage of a usurper in office. He will be a powerless leader. Is that what we want?
By the way, no one else has questioned Obama, not the DNC, not Hillary, NO ONE has verified that he is a natural born citizen. NO ONE. It is up to the Secretaries of State, and they should have verified his eligibility before his name went on the ballot..they didn't. Yet the SOS and electors took an oath to uphold the Constitution before they send their electoral votes to the Electoral College.
There are 19 lawsuits in 12 states, 3 pending in the US Supreme Ct.and more making their way through the state court systems. All for the same purpose. Also, there is another case in the Supreme Ct. on the docket for tomorrow, it is up for discussion. So no, it isn't over yet. And the other cases weren't thrown out for lack of merit, they were for no standing..which sends them up to another court. There are two petitions and over 250,000 people signed them. Then after signing, letters were sent to their Senators and Representatives.
He thinks we are stupid, and everyone has joined his bandwagon saying we're right wing nut jobs etc., because they don't know the definition of natural born...and that there are 3 categories of citizens: Natural born; Naturalized; and just plain citizen. (By the way, McCain wasn't eligible either as he got his citizenship through a law). These suits were started way before the election, so that this wouldn't happen. Obama has thumbed his nose at the US Constitution, and expects the citizens to do it too. The Constitution is the law of the land. If McCain had won, the same thing would be happening.
I am sane, smart, and I do know the consequences of having Obama in office as a usurper. Now you do too. Does this sound like a ridiculous claim now?
It doesn't allow links, so hope you can figure these out.
Plenty of Info Here:
http://www.dailypaul.com/node/78313
Party loyalty creates blindness.
Keep working on her, first with the fact no birth certificate has ever been produced, and ask why he just won't show it? THAT would shut all of us up real quick. The Party Line has already made it to the street and the party adherents are simply mouthing the "line" without thought...plant the seed of doubt.
Vote for Liberty...Buy Silver Eagles.
An Attorney, Eh? This may help...
If Obama was born outside of the United States:
The statute of 1790, stated: “[T]he children of citizens of the United States, that may be born beyond sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens: Provided, That the right of citizenship shall not descend to persons whose fathers have never been resident in the United States.” Act of Mar. 26, 1790, ch. 3, 1 Stat. 104.
Obama Sr. was never considered a resident of the US because he was here from Kenya on a student visa.
The Statutes passed in 1795 changed the wording from "shall be considered natural born citizens" to "shall be considered citizens". That change was made for a reason. Also note that citizenship passed through the father, not the mother.
If Obama wasn't born in the US, then he is not an American citizen because his mother wasn't old enough (she needed to be 19 and she was only 18) to automatically transmit US citizenship to him at birth in 1961. This information is from the US Department of State website :
Birth Abroad to One Citizen and One Alien Parent in Wedlock: ... For birth between December 24, 1952 and November 13, 1986, a period of ten years, five after the age of fourteen are required for physical presence in the U.S. to transmit U.S. citizenship to the child.
http://travel.state.gov/law/info/info_609.html
If Obama was born in the US, the main point is that there is a difference between a 'citizen' and a 'natural born citizen'.
The birth certificate only matters in that it says that Barack H Obama Sr, a Kenyan citizen, is the father.
A citizen of the US is a citizen at birth by being born on US soil (Jus soli) or by being born to one or two US citizen parents (Jus sanguinis).US citizenship can be acquired by naturalization by a non-citizen after birth.
www.state.gov/documents/organization/86755.pdf
John A. Bingham, chief architect of the 14th Amendments first section, considered the proposed national law on citizenship as ...
“simply declaratory of what is written in the Constitution, that every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen…” (congressional globe, 39th congress, 1st session, March 9, 1866)
Note the phrase "of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty". That means that neither parent could be a non-US citizen. B. H. Obama Sr, Obama's father, was not a US citizen, he was a British/Kenyan citizen.
A US 'natural born citizen' is a person born on US soil to two US citizen parents.
See PERKINS V. ELG - http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=307&invol=325
(Please note that the mother, Mrs Elg, was also a naturalized US citizen by derivation through her marriage to her husband, a naturalized citizen, as the law provided before 1922. [See section § 51.50 of http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2002/aprqtr/pdf/22cfr51.44.pdf ])
The Supreme Court case of PERKINS v. ELG defined a natural born citizen as a person who was born on US soil to two US citizen parents. It was also defined the same way in MINOR v. HAPPERSETT http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=88&invol=162
So, there is a difference between a 'citizen' and a 'natural born citizen'.
To be eligible to serve as the President of the United States, the person must be a 'natural born citizen' (or a citizen at the time of the adoption of the constitution) per Article 2 Section 1 of the US Constitution. www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.articleii.html
To establish a precedent in this situation, note that EVERY President has been a natural born citizen (born on US soil to two US citizen parents), or a citizen at the time the constitution was adopted.
Mr. Barack H. Obama II was born to a US citizen mother and a Kenyan citizen father and was reportedly born on US soil in the state of Hawaii. If born on US soil, He is a 'citizen'. BUT - Since one of his parents was not a US citizen, Obama is not a 'natural-born citizen' and is therefore not qualified for the office of President of the United States.
In either case, Mr. Obama is not a "natural born citizen" and is not qualified to serve as President of the United States.
If your lawyer friend notes that the Supreme Court has refused to hear any case about Mr. Obama's eligibility, give her this analogy:
If a thief has announced his intention to rob your home, but has not yet done so, can he be arrested for the theft of your property before he has done the deed?
It is not Unconstitutional for an ineligible person to be a candidate for President, or even win an election. It is Unconstitutional for an ineligible person to serve as President of the United States. The inauguration has not yet happened, the deed has not yet been done, so no case has been heard (yet) before the Supreme Court.
Go get 'em.
Here is the reply from her to this argument
I would be happy to respond to your arguments - I love a good challenge!
First of all, Obama was born in Hawaii, one of the United States at the time of his birth. This has been proven and is almost categorically accepted.
Second of all, the section of the Constitution that you keep talking about, Article II, section 1 and clause 5 reads in full as follows, "No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States."
You will notice that this Act does not define a natural born citizen. It simply states that a person must be a natural born citizen to be President of the U.S. And, therein lies the issue. What is a natural born citizen?
Here is my argument: A person can be a natural born citizen in one of two ways. First, by right of birthplace (jus soli), and second, by right of blood (jus sanguinis). In order to understand these concepts, I have looked to the Office of U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Service. They explain the concept of a natural born citizen as follows:
The 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution guarantees citizenship at birth to almost all individuals born in the United States or in U.S. jurisdictions, according to the principle of jus soli. Certain individuals born in the United States, such as children of foreign heads of state or children of foreign diplomats, do not obtain U.S. citizenship under jus soli.
Certain individuals born outside of the United States are born citizens because of their parents, according to the principle of jus sanguinis (which holds that the country of citizenship of a child is the same as that of his / her parents). The U.S. Congress is responsible for enacting laws that determine how citizenship is conveyed by a U.S. citizen parent or parents according to the principle of jus sanguinis. These laws are contained in the Immigration and Nationality Act.
This language is quoted verbatum from the Office of U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services. The second paragraph, which has been interpreted further by the U.S. Congress in the Immigration and Nationality Act, does not apply since Obama was born in Hawaii. So, we are left with paragraph one. Let' s repeat that:
"The 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution guarantees citizenship at birth to almost all individuals born in the United States or in U.S. jurisdictions, according to the principle of jus soli. Certain individuals born in the United States, such as children of foreign heads of state or children of foreign diplomats, do not obtain U.S. citizenship under jus soli."
Except for the children of foreign diplomats, which Obama was NOT, every child born in one of the the United States is a natural-born U.S. citizen, period. That's what "citizenship at birth" means. The parents could be citizens themselves, could be from France, could be from anywhere. Nothing else matters. Only if the child is born OUTSIDE the United States to one citizen-parent does the issue of the parents' age, citizenship, or whatever, come into play. Furthermore, under jus soli, even the children of illegal aliens are natural born U.S. citizens at birth--just ask the pregnant women from Mexico near the end of their third trimester who try to sneak across the border in hopes their child will be born in a San Diego hospital and leave with a U.S. birth certificate clutched in his or her tiny hand.
I believe that it was the intentions of our great founders that if a child is born on U.S. soil, he/she is a natural born citizen. This is how our country was formed. Remember, in the begining of our country, ALL of the babies were born to people who were once citizens of another country, "subject to a foreign power." As I see it, the flaw in your position comes from a lack of understanding of the term, "subject to a foreign power." Our framers were simply trying to keep the English Parliament and other powerful governments from overtaking our newborn and fragile American government. They were excluding children as natural born citizens whose parents were leaders (i.e. "diplomats") of foreign countries and not all children whose parents CAME from a foreign country.
Finally, I did not have time to read all the case law you cited, but I did peak at Perkins vs. Elg. I took this quote directly from the court's opinion: 'Young Steinkauler is a native-born American citizen. There is no law of the United States under which his father or any other person can deprive him of his birthright. He can return to America at the age of twenty-one, and in due time, if the people elect, he can become President of the United States." This paragraph references a young man born in the U.S. to parents who were not both U.S. citizens.
So, there it is. This is the way I see it, and I suspect this will be the position of the Courts if the issue is brought before them. I believe that any lawsuit alleging Obama is not a natural born citizen will be dismissed before it is heard on the basis that no issue of fact or law has been raised.
... and my rebuttal
You said "In order to understand these concepts, I have looked to the Office of U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Service. They explain the concept of a natural born citizen as follows:..."
Umm, one problem - nowhere does the Office of US Citizenship and Immigration Service use the phrase "natural born citizen", so they haven't defined the concept.
They are defining the concept of "citizen". That blows the majority of your argument away right there.
"Citizen by birth" and "Natural Born Citizen" are not equivalent terms. The Supreme Court cases I cited show that.
As far as "subject to a foreign power" is concerned, if a person is in the United States and is a citizen of a foreign country they are subject to a foreign power.
You said, "They were excluding children as natural born citizens whose parents were leaders (i.e. "diplomats") of foreign countries and not all children whose parents CAME from a foreign country."
Indeed, they did not exclude all children whose parents came from a foreign country, as long as those parents became citizens of the US, renouncing any foreign power, before the birth of their child. A "natural born citizen" is born on US soil of two US citizen parents.
Regarding the reference to "Young Steinkauler" in the Perkins v Elg case, please complete your reading of the case. Young Steinkauler was born in the US to two US citizen parents. His father became a naturalized citizen the year before his birth, and according to the law at that time his mother automatically became a naturalized US citizen by virtue of her marriage to a citizen. He was born to two US citizens on US soil and was thus eligible to be President of the United States if elected.
Good post
Good post
nativeTexanYouBetcha
...Loud and Clear!!!
"Don't mess with Texas" :)
donvino
Very Nice! Thanks
Very Nice!
Thanks nativeTexanYouBetcha!!!!
I would start off buy asking
I would start off buy asking her if she likes a global government. If she says no tell her what obama has in mind for the entire world, a NWO. Obama has even stated on david letterman show that he is in for a "World Order" new world order.
Joe bidden even wrote a book about the New world order
understanding the new world order is key to winning people over and waking them up because the facts are outstanding and overwhelming.
If she is for a new world order, then you must point out that the goal of the new world order is two turn the entire world into a socailist state where even her paycheck will be just enuff to buy a loaf of bread for her spam sandwich!
That is one thing that i have noticed crush the obamabots and thats talking about the NWO!!!!
they either call you a racist or cry or wake up
http://www.addendummovie.com
http://www.youtube.com/user/infospill
http://www.InfoSpill.com
http://www.youtube.com/user/infospill
http://www.InfoSpill.com
Isn't it nice that everyone can just imagine the law they like
and it makes it so in their mind? I sometimes feel like I have been thrust into the future and 90% of the inhabitants are retarded. Does anyone else ever wish they could be stupid just so this stuff wouldn't seem so bad?
Explore Orthodox Christianity
send them this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEnaAZrYqQI&eurl=http://www.p...
Thank you
Thank you RideTheDirt....Great vid!
It's too late to do anything
It's too late to do anything about it. Obama will be the new president. The vast majority of americans are too engulfed in their cable television and their big macs. When enough americans wake up to what is going on, it will be too late.
Think for yourself, question authority
Narrow vision....
...is how we got into this mess in the first place. It isn't necessarily "doing something about it", it's about disrupting the party, sowing doubt, distraction, retarding the enemy. Learn how to fight!
Vote for Liberty...Buy Silver Eagles.
Just sit back and watch ! LOL, yeah right
Oh no, we don't sit around and watch. That's the socialist way of doing things and that's not in our book. Feet, do your duty ! That's my take on it.
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she is wrong
He's never produced an actual Birth Certificate. He has produced a forged Certificate of Live Birth. His mother also seems to have given up her citizenship (at time of birth). The meaning of natural born means born in this country. He could still be a citizen and not be eligible to be Prez. He and the lawyers around him are being very careful not to commit perjury (or know of it).
CertifiCATION vs CertifiCATE
A LOT of confusion on this.
"CertifiCATION of Live Birth" is what he's showing. "CertifiCATE of Live Birth" is what we need to see.
The slight change of spelling IS an important distiction.
Just send them to one of the websites spelling it all out.
Yes, he may have been born US Citizen, but he was also BORN a Kenya(UK) citizen. Born with DUAL Citizenship, Natural Born has only ONE citizenship.
I'm pretty sure your "friend"
just said that you are, "an extremist who doesn't know his head from a hole in the ground."
I wouldn't give this guy a rebuttle. He is wrong about Obama's mother qualifying Obama for citizenship because of the 5 years after age 14 thing. If I responded to him/her at all, I would probably say, just keeping you apprised of the way the wind blows, thank you for your concern of my worry. I am ready for "great things."
This friend is an attorney
This friend is an attorney that still has her eyes closed. I would love to wake her up. She would be a GREAT asset to the movement. Thats why I shared this email with you guys.
I will not start turning my back after all we have accomplished...I will continue to charge forward and awake all that wants to know how to love & embrace freedom once again.
The fact that she is an attorney
does absolutely nothing for me. It means they should darn well know better without having to be told. She has it wrong. So what has her stupid degree done for her. She is mightier than thou and if you ever get her to come around, please tell us how you did it. Just maybe she has her eyes wide open and likes it this way. Some on the other side surely know exactly what they are doing. I have thrown enough of this material before attorneys that there is absolutely no excuse for them not to have come around. It is willful. Good luck. I think personally that YOU are the one who needs your eyes opened. You still put attorneys on a pedestal they don't deserve. Have you noticed that Hillary, Bill, the Obamas and many others are attorneys. An attorney is taught to lie and it is suppose to be an art, a fine tuned professional asset. Many think if a person can be fooled by an attorney, then that person is too stupid not to be duped. I propose that she is good looking, perhaps of an age that appeals to you and someone you might have an interest in beyond her profession. The "attorney" thing is a drawback. It means she has spent three more years in the clutches of the NWO.
You need to get a new
You need to get a new crystal ball! Yours is broken!
First I told you she was a friend! Do you not have friends that are still asleep? I'm trying to open her eyes. Nothing more, nothing less.
Second,
She is a delightful happily married person whom I have known since childhood. Bringing looks into the equation...OMG...get a life! Looks don't play a part in this movement I pray!
Like I said, I have several friends that are attorneys some of which I was able to wake up...That equates to good things the last time I checked. I'm just trying to get more folks to open their minds and pull their heads out of that black box they view every night.
I can only assume that this "opinion" has come from a person that believes the glass is half empty and has giving up on humanity or the thought of the fight for liberty.
hehehe
thou doest protest too much!!
laugh love & "learn" shhhh
laugh love & "learn"
shhhh small fonts...lol
Agree
If this friend thinks "Obama is going to do great things", he/she is invincible to the truth.
Miamisburg, Montgomery County, Ohio
Think
Think