Can we please stop propagating the fake Jefferson quote about "PRIVATE BANKS"?
Over and over I see people here posting the following alleged quote from Thomas Jefferson:
"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs."
This is a fake. No one has been able to say where Jefferson wrote this. It's been spreading around the internet and has even made it in a few books (unsourced). This book points out that the quote is "spurious:" (The term "deflation" cannot even be traced back further than 1920, and the term "inflation" 1864 - long after Jefferson died).
Also, this quote disagrees with Ron Paul who says that the best thing would be to allow the private market to create money (which is the standard position among Austrian economists). Dr. Paul would not be opposed to private banks creating money. He is for privately produced money rather than government money (http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=914) What he is opposed to is a single bank (the Fed) being granted a monopoly by the government to print legal tender, and the legal tender law which enforces the use of that money. Private banks, with no government granted monopoly, printing money, including commodity-backed money, is not a problem. That's what a free market in money would be. So not only the quote fraudulent but it doesn't align with the free market philosophy. It's more like something a socialist would say to justify nationalization (in fact I've seen that advocated here, and using this bogus quote to back it up http://www.dailypaul.com/node/80103). Jefferson was not a socialist.
Finally, note that though the Constitution allows the government to coin money, it doesn't forbid the people AND THE BANKS THEY OWN from coining and printing money. The Constitution restricts the government, not the people and their private businesses.
The first sentence of the
The first sentence of the fabricated quote:
"And I sincerely believe, with you, that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies ; and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale."
T.J. to John Taylor, May 28, 1816
http://www.yamaguchy.netfirms.com/7897401/jefferson/jefftayl...
The middle is fabrication, regurgitated by gas bags who never read Thomas Jefferson's letters.
The last sentence could be from this letter:
"Bank paper must be suppressed, and the circulating medium must be restored to the nation to whom it belongs."
T.J. to John W. Eppes, September 11, 1813.
http://www.yamaguchy.netfirms.com/7897401/jefferson/eppes1.html
similar sentiment:
T.J. to John Wayles Eppes, June 24, 1813
"The States should be applied to, to transfer the right of issuing circulating paper to Congress exclusively, in perpetuum, if possible, but during the war at least, with a saving of charter rights."
Please read full-text T.J. letters on money,banking, etc.
http://www.yamaguchy.netfirms.com/7897401/jefferson/jefind.html
Thomas Jefferson Direct Quote From His Writings:
"From a passage in the letter of the President, I observe an idea of establishing a branch bank of the United States in New Orleans. This institution is one of the most deadly hostility existing, against the principles and form of our constitution."
- Thomas Jefferson
http://books.google.com/books?id=124EAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA231&lpg=P...
Ron Paul's Convention Speech
Ron Paul's Convention Speech
Jefferson Quote
Thank you for the information. Unfortunately, I just used that quote in a recent lecture that I gave and posted to Google video. It was voice-over, however, and can be changed.
I dont doubt what you're saying, and should have been more careful. I'll nonetheless do my own quick research on the quote and replace it with another if it proves to be false.
Since the presentation was purposefully elementary, the last thing I want is a mistake in fact or misquote...particularly from Jefferson.
Also be sure you research
Also be sure you research all the Woodrow Wilson quotes. There are multiple quotes in MoneyAsDebt that are either false or the stringing together of multiple different sentences minsconstruing their meaning.
Same with the Jefferson quote
I believe that both men have actually uttered the whole phrases attributed to them. The reason you hear of bits and pieces from other sources is because we have a tendency to repeat ourselves when we really believe in something .You know, offer the same concept using slightly different wording. Think of all the occasions Dr. Paul called for a "return to sound money" or whatever. Think of his speeches. He constantly re-ietrates what he's been saying for 25+ years; soemtimes just a line or two, sometimes not in quite the exact wording, but close.
Now imagine that 100 or so years have gone by and some of his speeches have survived, showing the original sources, but others didn't (by accident or design). You would find bits and pieces of the same concepts scattered around or you might find instances where he says most of these things in the same speech.
I think that finding other sources where pieces of other quotes attributed to the same person keep showing up only strengthens the idea that the person really felt that way. Think of the Gospels. They sort of told the same story from 4 different perspectives - so when a quote attributed to Jesus shows up in more than one place, even with variations, it makes you think that he really said it. (yes, there is always the possibility of plagarism). It's the meaning of the overall concept that counts.
flame, why do you even care?
it's still true...
do or do not. there is no "try" - yoda
do or do not. there is no "try" - yoda
I don't agree that
private banks should not be allowed to issue currency. I believe in a free market, not government monopoly or government-granted monopoly.
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The Fed is not a private bank. PRIVATIZE THE FED!!!
"The Federal Reserve Banks should simply be regarded as governmental agencies." -Murray Rothbard
"I now call the Federal Reserve the fourth branch of government." -Ron Paul
I thought we had this cleared up
I thought we had this cleared up and would have thought the OP would have amended by now. That quote is a combination of 3 separate quotes by TJ
Study a compilation of his quotes at:
http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1325.htm
and you will see where it comes from and that the essence of the quote is authentic and still holds true!
It's now beginning to look like a childish attempt at propaganda by repetition! I have nothing else to say!
actually
inflation can be found in websters 1828 dictionary. Jefferson did talk about inflation in at least 2 letters which i have in his writtings. you are definatly right about that quote, however. it is a fake.
Fake
Not really a fake so much as a compilation, as far as I can tell. In fact, there were quite a few Ron Paul "quotes" circulating during his campaign that were not direct quotes but were compiled snippets of quotes. . . .
I think it's important to know, but I wouldn't personally use the word fake.
-Chad
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true
my only concern is for our credibility. people hear or see that quote and some will look for it to see if it is true. when they do not find THAT quote, they will look at us as liars and less likely to listen to the message. perhaps we will be looked at as uneducated folks that dont do their homework, or simple minded folks who believe whatever they are told.
in no way am i trying to put anyone down, i believe we all share good intentions, and being different we hold different opinions.
ive used the quote before until i found out that THAT direct quote couldnt be found in jefferson's writings.
we all share a cause that we want to see accomplished and we all have our own ways of accomplishing it, but we should be careful that we do not build on sand.
"The state is the great myth where everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Frederic Bastiat
EXACTLY! That is why I never
EXACTLY! That is why I never point anyone towards the Money Masters or MoneyAsDebt videos. They are both riddled with inaccurate or false quotes. I always recommend the Federal Reserve video by the Mises Institute.
Ron Paul's position
My understanding is that you are SLIGHTLY mischaracterizing Ron Paul's position on this issue.
It is true that Ron Paul would not propose any state-enforced restrictions on creation of money by private institutions, but his opinion and the slight majority of the Austrian school (as I understand it) is that printing paper money should be abolished by the market as a form of fraud. In other words, it should be illegal but not based on positive law--based on natural law.
Of course printing a receipt for a commodity is not "printing money" and I may just be misunderstanding you based on this semantic distinction.
Others in the Austrian school say a free market in money will and SHOULD include fractional reserve banking; I am pretty sure Ron Paul is not in that tradition.
Cheers.
-Chad
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If there are no legal tender laws
, as Dr. Paul is in favor of abolishing, then there is no problem if someone is printing paper money because the market naturally is not going to choose to use it anyway. You don't have to, and shouldn't, make it illegal. Paper money only predominates because of the law making it legal tender. Without the legal tender law, people would not choose to use something as money that has no "intrinsic value." What society in history without legal tender laws, has chosen to use money that has little or no intrinsic value? It's not a natural occurrence, but a product of government mandate.
Paul talks about this here: http://www.ronpaullibrary.org/document.php?id=914
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The Fed is not a private bank. PRIVATIZE THE FED!!!
"The Federal Reserve Banks should simply be regarded as governmental agencies." -Murray Rothbard
"I now call the Federal Reserve the fourth branch of government." -Ron Paul
Intrinsic value is a myth
Value comes from the eye of the beholder.
Which is why
I put "intrinsic value" in quotes, because it's the normal terminology when speaking about money. It actually just means that the paper itself has little or no exchange value, unlike gold which people are willing to work to obtain regardless of what is stamped on it.
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The Fed is not a private bank. PRIVATIZE THE FED!!!
"The Federal Reserve Banks should simply be regarded as governmental agencies." -Murray Rothbard
"I now call the Federal Reserve the fourth branch of government." -Ron Paul
But, paper money does sometimes have high exchange
value. For ex, right now FRN's are highly valued by individuals. As you know, the FRN's are so respected that they are considered the world's reserve currency.
But that's because of government fiat.
Eliminate the legal tender law, and see if people still value it.
For example, if someone's holding a gun to a person's head to get them to use something, would you say that the fact that they're using it is indicative that they value it? It wouldn't be a free choice. The question is whether they would value it in the condition of freedom.
-------
The Fed is not a private bank. PRIVATIZE THE FED!!!
"The Federal Reserve Banks should simply be regarded as governmental agencies." -Murray Rothbard
"I now call the Federal Reserve the fourth branch of government." -Ron Paul
I agree
That's quite true that the legal-tender laws have caused people to value it much higher than they otherwise would have.
That's an interesting question. I believe the answer is that yes, the majority of present users of the FRN would still use it if it's legal-tender laws were stripped away.
Why? Because there's all sorts of other regulations
on top of the legal tenders laws that give in an unjust advantage. Ie. taxes on precious metal transactions, business regulations (ex. Wal-Mart would have one hell of a time getting thru the red-tape to be able to issue their own "Wal-Mart" money that is redeemable (and thus backed) by their store merchandise).
But, in a more freed-market you're correct. The FRN's would die off long-term.
We have a store in Canada
We have a store in Canada called "Canadian Tire" which used to hand out its small change in "Canadian Tire Money". I believe now they just give you "bonus" dollars (cents,really) by percentage. But I recently bought $10 worth for about $8 canadian. Went and bought a new faucet. Saved two bucks.
cool...
I think we agree on all of this. I was just clarifying that one semantic point.
"You don't have to, and shouldn't, make it illegal."
I am just pointing out that Ron Paul (and Rothbard etc.) would say printing money (other than 100% commodity backed deposit recepits) is and should be illegal by natural law, but that no positive legal system (coercive state) is needed to enforce this; all it would take would be a couple good ol' fashioned bank runs if anything!
This also seems to be a point where a good portion of the Austrian school of economics also becomes the Rothbardian school of natural-law-based libertarianism. There is law, but the state is the worst (and most backwardly incentivised) agent of its discovery and enforcement.
Cheers,
chad
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Also, Jeferson....
Also, my reading of Jefferson is that he was not opposed to banks per se, but only heavily distrusted them and was very opposed to a government-corporate alliance in the form of Hamilton's central bank, which gave the government 20% share and private banks 80% share...
I don't know about that quote as it is presented (e.g. whether it's assembled from separate quotes), but I've read a lot of Jefferson and nothing in that quote contradicts what I've read regarding his feeling about banks.
He definitely was NOT opposed to the existence of banks, and even did business with them regularly (and died with quite a bit of debt thanks to an inheritance problem that he never effectively dealt with). However, he personally had very little trust of banks (which is not unreasonable--especially considering the highly fractional system at the time) and was opposed to the government charter and/or creation of a national bank.
-Chad
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Part of the quote comes from
Part of the quote comes from a letter to Taylor:
"We may say with truth and meaning that governments are more or less republican, as they have more or less of the element of popular election and control in their composition; and believing, as I do, that the mass of the citizens is the safest depository of their own rights, and especially, that the evils flowing from the duperies of the people are less injurious than those from the egoism of their agents, I am a friend to that composition of government which has in it the most of this ingredient. And I sincerely believe, with you, that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies; and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale."
Letter to John Taylor (28 May 1816) ME 15:23.
The rest can be found in his others; if not the exact same words, the exact same sentiment.
To quote Mr. Waldo below:
"Study a compilation of his quotes at:
http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1325.htm and you will see where it comes from and that the essence still holds true!"
"There can be only one permanent revolution - a moral one: The regeneration of the inner man."
—Tolstoy
"The body is but a vessel for the soul,
A puppet which bends to the soul's tyranny.
And lo, the body is not eternal,
For it must feed on the flesh of others,
Lest it return to the dust whence it came.
Therefore the soul deceives and despises."
Do you take from that
that he is against the existence of banks?
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The Fed is not a private bank. PRIVATIZE THE FED!!!
"The Federal Reserve Banks should simply be regarded as governmental agencies." -Murray Rothbard
"I now call the Federal Reserve the fourth branch of government." -Ron Paul
Make of it as you will
You are entitled to your opinion. You could make that argument I suppose. Personally, I think we could exist without banks, off-the-grid, as they say, but it would be extremely difficult because you would be limiting yourself from the present reality.
"There can be only one permanent revolution - a moral one: The regeneration of the inner man."
—Tolstoy
"The body is but a vessel for the soul,
A puppet which bends to the soul's tyranny.
And lo, the body is not eternal,
For it must feed on the flesh of others,
Lest it return to the dust whence it came.
Therefore the soul deceives and despises."
Interesting
This is actually really interesting, I never even secondguessed the quote as not belonging to Jefferson. From what I'd read it seemed in character.
Can anyone provide the quote? Below, as early as 1810-1820 there's a reference to Jefferson using the word "inflate" so that would mean the term was being used at the time. Any other instances of the words inflate or deflate being used?
Lets stop the "guvment paid disinfo trolls" as this is a discussion for rational people, not one for name callers who don't want to look at the actual evidence. The odds that the quote has been revised or changed over time, even misattributed, are MUCH higher than people being paid to strike this word to the internet. No one would do that while all the paper copies of documentation exist, and the historians would throw a fit.
Any other actual pieces of evidence to add here? Instances of the words "deflation" and "inflation" being used within his lifetime? I haven't been able to find anything yet unfortunately.
Eric hoffer
http://gplus.to/jamesrmoore
I agree
The idea is not to prove or disprove any one person's position, the objective is to arrive at a better collective understanding of the issues.
As we have seen here, the issues are complex and trying to raise the collective learning curve will only help us understand and educate others.
I would say the mutual reciprocity of learning from each other is probably the best thing about the DP.
I certainly don't claim to know it all, and anyone who does is only exposing their own ignorance.
Good that you've come to your senses,
because it was you that was calling me a "troll" for correcting what I believe to be misinformation from you and others.
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The Fed is not a private bank. PRIVATIZE THE FED!!!
"The Federal Reserve Banks should simply be regarded as governmental agencies." -Murray Rothbard
"I now call the Federal Reserve the fourth branch of government." -Ron Paul
My apologies!
I saw your fairly new membership and thought you were likely a paid infiltrator - here to reek discord instead of discussion.
The exercise we went through was very educational and helped me find some reliable sources for TJ quotes which I now understand were co-mingled to produce the composite that is so often used - the essence of which, as I interpret it - still holds true.
It seems like we have a confluence of topics here that still need clarification. I read your reference to RP's speech on the bill to repeal the Legal Tender laws and found that to be something new and interesting to me. If you could do a thread on competing currencies and bring us up to speed on your understanding it would be quiet helpful.
Thanks,
RW
Give it up already
Can you give me one shred of evidence that there are "paid infiltrators" here at Daily Paul? I think you overestimate the government in this case.
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