Free Market Capitalism in...China?
Submitted by JKap on Mon, 01/26/2009 - 11:44I was told in another thread that "people...have risen out of poverty in China through free market capitalism".
Here I thought China was a brutal communist regime that violently oppresses individual human liberty through things like forced abortions, involuntary servitude, a controlled media, and suppression of political free speech. In short, anything but a free market capitalist system.
What do you think?
UPDATE:
War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.
Socialism is capitalism.
UPDATE 2:
Ron Paul: Communist China shouldn't be financed by US
Well, lookee there. Your tax dollars go to subsidize communist/"capitalist" China.
UPDATE 3:
References
-China Sticking to One-Child Policy
-Horrific New Evidence of China Organ Harvesting Revealed
-China to 'tidy up' trade in executed prisoners' organs
-China's Christians suffer for their faith
-Torture is Breaking Falun Gong
-UN Reports the Chilling Facts on Organ Harvesting from Live Falun Gong Practitioners
-Repression in China Worsens Worker Protests
-China's 'reforming' work programm
-China's intolerance of dissent
-China victims decry forced late-term abortions
-China admits women were forced to have abortions
-China province sets huge fines for one-child rule
-China makes ultimate punishment mobile
Worrying about China will not
keep the local SWAT team off your doorstep if you do something to piss off the 'leaders' we have here locally. Let the Chinese take care of themselves and go out and fight for liberty HERE. The Chinese don't care if you want them to be free. It's a nice sentiment but it is not going to bring you any closer to liberty in your life.
Informed Juries Save Lives
fija.org, go check it out
'Live for yourself, there's no one else more worth living for,
Begging hands and bleeding hearts
Will only cry out for more...'
'Live for yourself, there's no one else more worth living for,
Begging hands and bleeding hearts
Will only cry out for more...'
Although jkap can be a harsh poster his point is valid.
Further down in the thread he posted: "Without economic freedom, individual liberty is diminished. Without individual liberty, economic freedom is diminished." I totally agree.
His passion, I think, comes from this "...But it is my country and I'll be damned if we're turned into Communist China while I still have breath." I support that sentiment.
I still maintain that free market capitalism is the mechanism that is transforming China. Less socialism means more liberty in every form. In the USA we are experiencing more socialism and less freedom. I think everyone on DP would agree that freedom and liberty are our goals.
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h-daddy
Of course he makes some valid points
and those points are all undermined thanks to the dripping sarcasm, character attacks and histrionics. Every person who has reverted to this puerile behavior on the DP loses credibility and tries the patience of everyone still left here.
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Talk to someone new every day. You'll be surprised what you learn.
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"The main thing that I learned about conspiracy theory is that conspiracy theorists actually believe in a conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is chaotic..." —Alan Moore
Jeez you really have it out for JKap are you secretly in love?
"All great truths begin as blasphemies."
"Human beings with love and compassion are some of the most beautiful creatures in the universe... Those without are a plague on us all."
That's a bizarre thing to say
I'm more concerned about keeping discussions on point. You're free to have your own opinion.
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Talk to someone new every day. You'll be surprised what you learn.
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"The main thing that I learned about conspiracy theory is that conspiracy theorists actually believe in a conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is chaotic..." —Alan Moore
The problem is you are
The problem is you are confusing capitalism with political communism. The Chinese form of communism is totally different than the Soviet model. The Chinese have actually separated much of the economic growth from government. They are two separate items.
Knowing this, we see the Chinese gov. doing horrible things to their people when it comes to human rights. On the other hand, they have allowed a leg-up for the poor farmer that wants to start a business of his own. They have literally allowed millions of Chinese farmers & poor people to make their own way.
By allowing businesses to grow without regulation or having a "license" and having low taxation. These people brought themselves out of rice fields and into the cities. They have a 30-40% personal savings rate and the quality of life has grown exponentially. They are a country of 1.3 Billion people and of course they are going to have problems. However, if this was the Soviet form of Communism, they would have collapsed years ago.
Now the Chinese people are paying for the US debt and own 1.3 Trillion in T-bills. That means that much of the road building, farm subsidies, welfare programs and wars, are payed for by the Chinese, Japanese & Saudi's.
From my standpoint, not only are WE not free in our own country, we owe huge debts to the people that we love to criticize so much. You should direct your attention to the USA, where we can "Hopefully" effect the outcome.
www.twatm.com
What's your deal JKap?
So you believe there is no free market capitalism in China. So what? There is also no free market capitalism in America. So unless you are a citizen of China, this should be irrelevant to you personally, as it is irrelevant to the 95% of visitors here, who live in North America.
Since you're not a citizen of China, and 99%+++ of the visitors to this site are not either, and therefore none of us can affect any change in China, what is the point of this thread other than to distract from what you could be doing?
So some random dude on another thread said "people...have risen out of poverty in China through free market capitalism," and it got stuck in your craw. Deal with it.
It is true that millions of people have risen out of poverty in China.
It is also true that wealthy Chinese enjoy what appears to be a free market economy.
It is also true that wealthy Americans enjoy what appears to be a free market economy.
Since you can't change anything in China, but presumably you could change something here in North America, why are you wasting your energy, and everyone's time with this?
Nystrom: China enjoys what appears to be a "free market economy"
Thanks for clearing that up for everyone. I'll be finding a new website to call home where the owner does not believe that communist China is anything resembling a "free market economy". Deal with it. I know it doesn't make an iota of difference to you, except that you said you received a lot of complaints about this thread so that will no longer be of concern.
If I see you in person again, as I did at the leadership summit, I'll tell you what I really think of you now.
I believe in what Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. said, "injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
For the sake of those with smaller minds who may be reading, I do not mean that in the sense that I favor the use of force by our illegitimate government to impose 'justice' upon the Chinese. It is simply a moral position that I hold to be true.
Good luck with your Daily Paul troll convention of "random dudes" who argue that gravity is a horizontal force, Mr. Nystrom.
Has Capitalism Failed? by Ron Paul
That concludes my "Dear Daily Paul" letter.
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"...a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people." -John F. Kennedy
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"...a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people." -John F. Kennedy
It's good to see what's going on in the world around us
so we can better spot trends and designs that will affect us.
New Hampshire and Ecuador.
Can I have your stereo?
?
CHA-CHING!
"I'll be finding a new website to call home..."
Wow. That was quite an emotional outburst...
I'd love to keep this conversation going with the folks who have actually had first hand travel and business experience in China and other Asian countries. Even more informative would be anyone who actually has a successful business in China.
It's nice to see additional perspectives.
Also, I'd like to get some of your impressions regarding negotiations with businesses and business owners in China. The negotiations can be very tough, but the negotiations I've been involved in usually have a positive net effect.
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Talk to someone new every day. You'll be surprised what you learn.
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"The main thing that I learned about conspiracy theory is that conspiracy theorists actually believe in a conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is chaotic..." —Alan Moore
Because it still makes me laugh.
On sale now!!
http://www.theonion.com/content/files/images/Johnson-And-R.a...
Eric Hoffer
http://gplus.to/jamesrmoore
that is a good one
Thank you Dr. Paul for making me act on what I already knew was right.
*May the only ones to touch your junk, be the ones you want to touch your junk.*
I like Jkaps post and this is why
it matters.. (Walter BLock 3/08 Lew Rockwell)
"The Samuelson introductory economic text used to compare the U.S. and the USSR economy. In the view of this pinko professor, the latter would soon overtake the former in terms of economic development. Nonsense on stilts, of course. However, if there were a similar comparison made between the U.S. and China, indicating, over time, patterns of freedom within the two respective countries, it would indicate that the former is falling, while the latter is increasing at a rate perhaps never before matched in all of human history. Just a few short decades ago, the People’s Republic was wallowing in Communism, totalitarianism, central planning and outright starvation. Nowadays, there is a real question as to which is the freer country. If this past pattern persists, there will soon be no doubt. So, again, we have an anomaly: the US, bully boy to the world, where freedom is fast disappearing, is presuming to lecture China, which has no foreign military bases anywhere, and where domestic freedom is wildly on the upsurge."
h-daddy
...and this
Dr. Paul: "I believe that by engaging the Chinese people, opening personal dialogue, and seeking to change their hearts and minds, we soon will see that regime collapse. The laws of economics dictate that a communist system cannot stand for long. But in the same way, I firmly believe there is a higher law which dictates that people exposed to the principles of liberty will not for long allow themselves to remain shackled to an oppressive government. Economic freedom, i.e. capitalism, now has a strong foothold in China. The Chinese people may soon demand political, religious, and personal freedom as well." (Rockwell 8/16/08)
Both Block and Dr. Paul support both Jkaps observations and my observation. The lesson of China applies to USA. We are heading towards a decline in our living standard because we are adopting even more socialist principles. China is doing the opposite.
h-daddy
I doubt the person that said that means what you're claiming.
If someone says that, i would think that they simply meant that it was increased economic freedom that is raising living standards. That it is the reduction of government control over the means of production that has contributed to this rise.
There is something called "the principle of charity" which you should exercise. It means, according to Wikipedia: "understanding a speaker's statements by interpreting the speaker's statements to be rational and, in the case of any argument, rendering the best, strongest possible interpretation of an argument. In its narrowest sense, the goal of this methodological principle is to avoid attributing irrationality, logical fallacies or falsehoods to the statements of others, when there is another coherent, rational interpretation of the statements."
If you would have employed the principle of charity, you could have avoided wasted your time writing this post and creating a straw man to attack. Everybody knows that China's economy is far from being a pure free market economy, the person who said that included I'm sure.
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The Fed is not a private bank. PRIVATIZE THE FED!!!
"The Federal Reserve Banks should simply be regarded as governmental agencies." -Murray Rothbard
"I now call the Federal Reserve the fourth branch of government." -Ron Paul
About China
I have read many of your posts, and many of you are correct in your assessments, but you are not putting those assessments together to form a right picture.
Before the CCP came to power, China has always been an country of farmers and small businesses (personal/family) entrepreneurs. When the CCP came to power in 1949, they took away the liberty Chinese people had for the past 2000 years, that is to start their own business whenever and wherever they like. The so called "reform" in the 80s basically gave back the Chinese people the right to have personal business that they had for the past 2000 years. So in terms of the freedom to start business, yes, it's easier to start business in China than here. But what about all the regulations and stuff? All the regulations and bureaucracy, though, has to be overcomes with one things, that is money. Money is your pass to freedom in China. You have enough money, you can do anything you want. So Chinese, in the free spirit of entrepreneurism, uses their capital money and profit to ensure they stay above the regulations and the hassles of local gov't. Local government benefits from business activities also, so they developed such a partnership during the past 10 to 20 years. In the meanwhile, workers and common people become angrier and angrier as corruptions rage. So there has been many cases of civil unrest, riots and demonstrations. Chinese people usually are very peaceful and mind their own business. Only when they are being exploited and pressed beyond the chance to survive would they rise up to revolt, as our history shows. So you can safely conclude that the complains of the people has reached boiling points in many parts of the country.
But if you just look at Shanghai, Shengzhen or other coastal cities, you would not see the underlying problem. You need to go inland, to the place where people still live in conditions the same as 50 years ago. Shanghai is just a glamorous shell. Its inside is rotten to the core. High rise buildings are built within a year's time, but what kinds of material do they use? Don't ask! People are dissatisfied spiritually and the dominant philosophy is materialism. And is China still communist? No, no one believes in communism anymore. It's gov't is just a corrupted totalitarian, authoritarian, central government wearing a Communist outfit that would do anything to stay in power. So as long as you are not Christian, you are not against the government, you are not a threat to the government's hold on power, you are pretty much free to do things as you pleased.
So to answer your question, if China a free market capitalism? Not really, but it is pretty much free in the economical sense with few regulations you can't overcome and low tax rate. Is China Communist? No, it's just a totalitarian gov't.
Point of detraction
Chinese people usually are very peaceful and mind their own business. Only when they are being exploited and pressed beyond the chance to survive would they rise up to revolt, as our history shows.
This coming from the people who wrote the Art of War? I hate to say it, but China has a history as bloody as anyone else, if not one of the bloodiest. Where are you deriving the "peaceful peasants" bit from?
Eric Hoffer
http://gplus.to/jamesrmoore
PEOPLE....LISTEN UP PLEASE....PLEASE
There are now "NO' Nations that are FREEDOM LOVING NATIONS!!! Do You Not See this simple reality? Why do YOU think that Most (If not ALL) of the World looks to America & "AMERICANS" to Fight the NWO as it is today seen as the "ENEMY of "FREEDOM" for most if not "ALL COUNTRIES?" Only the elite seem to want a NWO. For the average Citizen, a NWO means MORE Taxes, Less Freedoms & Loss of human dignity as well as Loss of Civil Liberties. Most people donot wish to be SLAVES. We are seen as the countriy and the peoples to STOP it. in its tracks. What is preventing us from doing just that? It would appear that there are many whom just like to chat & talk....And it is quite apparent that our communist goverment KNOWS that there are MANY whom will "Protect Freedom" for our Families & Friends at all costs. One should ask ones own self, where do I stand? I KNOW where I stand.
It should also be obvious at
It should also be obvious at this point that the Elite care not if they take through Taxation, or if they take through Capital Gains. So long as they do indeed take, matters little to them what you label it.
The people of Russia and China yell "Communism sucks, we want Capitalism". The people of America yell "Capitalism sucks, we want Socialism". And the Elite just snicker, and give to the people what they ask for...
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"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" Bugs Bunny
"Scwewy Wabbit!" Elmer Fudd
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"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" B.Bunny "Scwewy Wabbit!"E. Fudd
People's Awareness Coalition: Deprogramming Sequence
You forgot one
Taxation, capital gains, or INFLATION.
http://federalfallacy.com
http://federalfallacy.com
That IS True...
& IT SHOULD be Obvious, but sadly it isnot.
Capitalism is a system where
Capitalism is a system where men exploit other men. Communism is the same system in reverse.
Free Market does not equate to Capitalism. Free Market, Free Market Capitalism. Those are 2 different systems. The Federal Reserve is made up of Capitalist. They suck wealth from the system without producing anything of value. What they do produce is debt, that enables them to suck even more wealth out of the system without any labor on their part. Socialist suck wealth from the system without producing anything. These Socialist disguise their theft with a Label and an Idea. Capitalism. "We take capital and put it to work to produce". But in fact the ONLY capital that can be put to work to produce is LABOR, not money. They use their illusion to con the people into slavery, just as the Communist do. Its important to understand, the same man that coined the term "Communism" is the same man that coined the term "Capitalism".
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"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" Bugs Bunny
"Scwewy Wabbit!" Elmer Fudd
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"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" B.Bunny "Scwewy Wabbit!"E. Fudd
People's Awareness Coalition: Deprogramming Sequence
Reading
Please read:
Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal, by Ayn Rand.
Eric Hoffer
http://gplus.to/jamesrmoore
Ayn Rand is to the
Ayn Rand is to the Capitalist as Karl Marx is to the Communist. Rand spreads his lies about Capitalism and the Capitalist buy it up just as the Communist buy up the lies of Karl Marx, when in truth they are one in the same. People whom buy up these lies do so without seeing in truth what is being presented. Karl Marx coined the term Capitalism and Communism, he defined BOTH. He made one the Bogie man of the other, Rand does the same, in reverse.
The problem with Communism/Socialism is that in time the people stop working as they discover they can live from the Benefit of what is taken from others. Why work when the government is there to take care of you?
The same occurs under Capitalism. Surely we've all heard the phrase "Put your money to work, so you don't have to". Capitalist society begins to learn that one can invest their earnings and live off the gain. Eventually as more and more do so, less and less is produced, just as is under the Communist system. No longer do people look to labor to provide for themselves, instead they look to capital investments to provide for them. As the Socialist system collapses, the participants within that system are SCREWED. As the investments collapse within the Capitalist Society, so to are the participants SCREWED.
So long as the Elite can keep us within EITHER of these two systems, they win.
If thou lend money to [any of] my people [that is] poor by thee, thou shalt not be to him as an usurer, neither shalt thou lay upon him usury. (Exodus 22:25)
Usury is destructive to freedom, just as Taxes are destructive to freedom. Through either, taxes or interest, we destroy our freedom.
Taxes and Usury are a system of "Their" world, but should not be a part of the world of Freedom. Free will Charity, a days honest labor for a days honest pay, and respect of neighbor are the way of Freedom.
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"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" Bugs Bunny
"Scwewy Wabbit!" Elmer Fudd
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"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" B.Bunny "Scwewy Wabbit!"E. Fudd
People's Awareness Coalition: Deprogramming Sequence
Scwewy logic! - TxRedneck
Did you say, "He" when referring to Ayn Rand? His? Argh...
Obviously you're well read. We're talking economics and you're citing the Bible as your source.
Ayn Rand is to the Capitalist as Karl Marx is to the Communist. Rand spreads his lies about Capitalism and the Capitalist buy it up just as the Communist buy up the lies of Karl Marx, when in truth they are one in the same. People whom buy up these lies do so without seeing in truth what is being presented. Karl Marx coined the term Capitalism and Communism, he defined BOTH. He made one the Bogie man of the other, Rand does the same, in reverse.
It's always nice to see the old, "They're exact opposites, therefore they're the same!" argument trotted out now and then. Gives the old gal a time to relive her glory days.
They're proponents of different systems. Because Marx defined the term doesn't mean the system was his idea. Nor does Marx being an amoral prick have any effect on the system itself. A rose by any other name, or defined as a rose by any other person, is still a rose.
What is this "truth" that no one else is seeing? As you've read Rand so very well, I'm sure you were able to spot the holes her arguments! (If there was a sarcasm off tag, I'd use it here.)
The same occurs under Capitalism. Surely we've all heard the phrase "Put your money to work, so you don't have to". Capitalist society begins to learn that one can invest their earnings and live off the gain. Eventually as more and more do so, less and less is produced, just as is under the Communist system. No longer do people look to labor to provide for themselves, instead they look to capital investments to provide for them. As the Socialist system collapses, the participants within that system are SCREWED. As the investments collapse within the Capitalist Society, so to are the participants SCREWED.
Wrong. Wrong. And more wrong.
What do you think the money is doing if it isn't going to production? I'll use a friend of mine, a self made millionaire as an example.
If he were to start his own business producing, he could maybe make 10 units a week, he'd get more money at a pretty slow rate, and his money would sit in his mattress. However, when he gives his money to others to start their own businesses, he now has 10 people who are each making 10 units a week, and they started their businesses with HIS capital.
So now the production of society is up to 100 units per week, and my friend spends his days playing Chess and learning to dance the salsa. Every week, the people who have made their business with my friend's money pay back the loan. They pay it back with interest for the use of my friend's money, because he hasn't been able to buy the things he wants to or use his money as he saw fit.
How do you see this as, "less and less is produced?" The only time investments collapse is when my friend invests unreasonably. He never loans his buddy Joey money for any of his crazy schemes, because he knows Joey is a drunk. The one time he lent Joey 10 grand to start up, Joey blew all the money and still hasn't paid my friend back. My friend has now lost his money, his friend, and has to work to remake that capital. Sometimes you make investments that don't succeed, and you have to be prepared.
In true Capitalism there are no "Elite" people who are the keepers and brokers of power based on political pull. They only have financial pull and the ability to get things done. The finest minds rise to the top. Those who inherit fortunes and don't have the productive minds necessary to use the fortune wisely will blow it and end up just as destitute as they would have been without it.
Taxes and Usury are a system of "Their" world, but should not be a part of the world of Freedom. Free will Charity, a days honest labor for a days honest pay, and respect of neighbor are the way of Freedom.
He who shall not work shall not eat! Down with the bourgeois!
So you're telling me that by freedom, I can't take a loan out from a guy and pay him back interest? I can't make a loan to someone I trust and expect to be paid for my risk? What kind of freedoms do you believe in?
If there's no incentive to lend, who would ever have the funds to start their own businesses except those who are already rich? You don't run an economy on charity.
Eric Hoffer
http://gplus.to/jamesrmoore
"We're talking economics and
"We're talking economics and you're citing the Bible as your source.
"
The Bible talks extensively about economics. It is through economic"Systems" that men such as Cain, Nimrod, Pharaoh, Caesar made men to be slaves. The Bible is an observation of how men use Usury and Tax to bring other men under slavery. There is no older clearer source to see what results of these systems. Government and Economics are virtually the only two subjects that the Bible addresses.
"What do you think the money is doing if it isn't going to production? I'll use a friend of mine, a self made millionaire as an example."
Taxes under Socialism also go into production, this is part of the purpose that they are collected. You give an example of ONE friend that is successful under Capitalism. Capitalism does work, for a time. Just as Scoialism does work, for a time. It is when everyone seeks to live off the Government that socialism fails. It is likewise when everyone seeks to live off of Capital that Capitalism fails. In both systems people seek to thrive without doing labor.
"In true Capitalism there are no "Elite" people who are the keepers and brokers of power based on political pull."
If this is a TRUE statement, then TRUE Capitalism has NEVER exsisted. Since the idea of Banks, there have been the Elite.
"So you're telling me that by freedom, I can't take a loan out from a guy and pay him back interest? I can't make a loan to someone I trust and expect to be paid for my risk?"
I never said anything of the sort. You DO have the Freedom to make yourself a slave.
"If there's no incentive to lend, who would ever have the funds to start their own businesses except those who are already rich? "
The people whom live not under usury or taxes have more than enough to provide for themselves and still enough to provide, if they desire to, for those in need. It is because of taxes and usury that one is unable to make enough to start their own means of self sufficiency. This requires one to submit to the system of either Capitalism or socialism, to either seek a loan, or to seek benefit from those whom collect tax. Often both, to seek a loan from those whom collect tax, thereby resulting in a payment of usury for the loan, and a tax for the gain, directly back to the one whom "assisted" them in the first place. One can see that such a lender has made quite the investment...
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"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" Bugs Bunny
"Scwewy Wabbit!" Elmer Fudd
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"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" B.Bunny "Scwewy Wabbit!"E. Fudd
People's Awareness Coalition: Deprogramming Sequence
Talking
The Bible has the added benefit of not needing to justify itself as it is taken on faith. Unfortunately, the Bible is not a work on economics and government. I'd say based on common approval, the Bible is taken as a guide to moral conduct first and foremost.
Taxes under Socialism also go into production, this is part of the purpose that they are collected. You give an example of ONE friend that is successful under Capitalism. Capitalism does work, for a time. Just as Scoialism does work, for a time. It is when everyone seeks to live off the Government that socialism fails. It is likewise when everyone seeks to live off of Capital that Capitalism fails. In both systems people seek to thrive without doing labor.
I gave an example of one friend, I can list off my other friends who have started their own businesses, or myself if you'd prefer. I'm not a millionaire yet though, so it's not as striking an example. Because of our factory, my father, I, and our two employees are continually producing and getting more and more money. I can only hope that one day one of our employees learns enough and makes enough working for us that they could open their own business doing the same.
The "when everyone seeks to live off capital" line isn't possible. How can you seek to live off capital if everyone else is trying to do the same? I'm assuming you mean borrowing of money to loan to someone else at a higher rate. If you do it successfully, wonderful, but if you make a bad investment, you're screwed, and you deserve your fate.
The talk of "we seek to live without doing labor." If I work twice as hard as some other guy for 20 years, and make twice as much money, am I not entitled to not work for the next 20 years while he is still moving at the same prodding pace?
I expect to retire in 15 years or so from now. I might start another business, I might not. If I do not, I will spend my time living off my money, investing in the ideas and labor of others, and being paid for my astute investments. I will use my time to do the things I enjoy, like spending time with my family and playing chess. If I make a bad investment and lose it all, then that is my fault. I know that my money is being better used by those who are at their primes of productive capacity. I will be paid for wise judgment or lose accordingly for folly. Those people I invest in will produce MORE because of me and my money.
If this is a TRUE statement, then TRUE Capitalism has NEVER exsisted. Since the idea of Banks, there have been the Elite.
I'll agree, we've never had true capitalism here, but we've gotten damned close. Unfortunately, at the time white people thought black people and indian people didn't count as "people." So a strike on the record there. Because government has too much power, we have the Elite. It's unfortunate, but until government is shrunk drastically and Banks become a normal business, you're absolutely correct.
The people whom live not under usury or taxes have more than enough to provide for themselves and still enough to provide, if they desire to, for those in need
They only have what they have based on their loans of a previous time, or their parent's loans. I won't call a person living on Daddy's hard work a moral individual. Odds are, his Daddy took out a loan to start his business, because there's no way he could afford start up costs otherwise. No one pays for things up front. NET30 and NET45 are variations of usuary, by your definition.
It is because of taxes and usury that one is unable to make enough to start their own means of self sufficiency.
Taxes stop people from making money and producing, loans allow it to begin. How do you expect to buy a building, buy production equipment, pay workers wages, and buy product to produce without a loan? Unless you're a recently lottery winner, you're done for.
Have you ever started a factory? Do you understand the massive amount of capital necessary to get off the ground? In order to pay your workers, you need orders, but who would order from a man with no workers and no factory?
Eric Hoffer
http://gplus.to/jamesrmoore
The Church is a creation
The Church is a creation from Jesus, the Bible. Seems the Law disagrees with you on the Church being a Government.
“A body or community of Christians, UNITED UNDER ONE FORM OF GOVERNMENT by the profession of one faith, and the observance of the same rituals and ceremonies.”
Black's Law Dictionary 3rd ed. Page 325. also 4th, 5th 6th Ed.
It would be obvious to most, one would think, that Moses bringing the Hebrew out from under an oppressive form of Government and establishing another form of Government under an unseen "God", would be seen as being entirely related to Government. And that setting down a set of laws, would be seen as forming Government.
The word "God" as found in the Greek Text Bible. We find God has said, “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” (Exodus 20:3) The words “gods” and “God” are translated from the single word ‘elohiym in the plural. ‘Elohiym is defined “rulers, judges”. As Rulers and Judges are what make up a Government, it would seeming fitting that "Thou shalt have no gods before me" is the same as saying "thou shalt have no Governments before me".
In the Roman Government, the Emperor was called Patronus (our Father) and Senators called Patres (father) or Conscripti Patres. Jesus tells us to "Call no man Father", which is to say do not give recognition to the GOVERNMENT of these Earthly Fathers, but to only the GOVERNMENT of "Father in Heaven". These Governments of Rome and Herod were literally providers for the people, they were socialistic. Providers, just as a Father is a provider. And they called themselves "Father". Jesus tells us the "Father in heaven" will provide for us, IF we recognize HIS GOVERNMENT over us, and not the Government of Men whom exercise authority over men.
It is written that Jesus said his Kingdom (kingdom is a government) is not of this world.(John 18:36) The Greek word used in this passage that is translated is "Kosmos". If we look up the Greek definition of Kosmos we find it defined as "an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government", it in no way means world, it means government. Jesus is stating that his Government is seperate from the Roman Government, seperate from Herod's government. His Government is not of their government. Their Governments were governments of taking from man for the Benefit of other men. His was not.
In IRS publication 557 we find that Churches are not required to file for tax exemption. They are recognized as being tax exempt by their very nature, they are not of this Government. But further reading of 557 finds that a church may chose to file as tax exempt, and in doing so they gain some additional benefits. A dainty meat is put before them. When the Church accepts these additional benefits, they in truth are no longer a Church, they make themselves a Tax Exempt Organization, and as they are no longer a Church, they VOLUNTARILY surrender some of their rights to Government.
So it is not hard to understand that many believe that the Bible has nothing to do with Government and Economics, as the majority do not attend Church, but instead go every Sunday to a Tax Exempt Organization that teaches them the RELIGION set down by King James, and do not learn about the Kingdom (GOVERNMENT) established by Jesus and the Economic ways and Morales required to maintain Freedom under this way of Government.
This IS why we live under the Government of Men whom are providers, Fathers, of all under them. We do not call Father in Heaven our provider and protector, but instead call the Father in DC our provider and protector, as Fathers do.
In 1865 a painting was made in the eye of the Rotunda in the US Capital. It is a painting with George Washington, titled "The Apotheosis of Washington". Apotheiosis is a word meaning to raise one to the rank of "God".
You yourself admit that TRUE Capitalism has never existed. The same is true about true Communism. True Communism as defined by Karl Marx has NEVER existed. And TRUE Capitalism, TRUE Communism will NEVER exist. Men discovered this over 3000 years ago. They discovered that these systems lead to enslavement. And they demonstrated a form of Government, Economics and Morales that create a Free Society. They discovered that their way lead to Freedom, and all the other ways lead to enslavement. The unseen King and his Rule represented Freedom, and any other forms lead to enslavement.
When William Penn said, "If we will not be ruled by God, then we will be ruled by tyrants", he was not making some profound prophetic statement. He was merely reiterating what had been discovered and documented thousands of years earlier. But as has been seen over and over, "Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it".
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"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" Bugs Bunny
"Scwewy Wabbit!" Elmer Fudd
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"Ehhh, What's ups Doc?" B.Bunny "Scwewy Wabbit!"E. Fudd
People's Awareness Coalition: Deprogramming Sequence
"Capitalism is a system where men exploit other men."
That is a canard. Try another screen name. Next.
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"...a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people." -John F. Kennedy
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"...a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people." -John F. Kennedy